Israeli military mistakenly kills 3 hostages in Gaza

[Grim Reaper 6]

Israeli soldiers killed three Israeli hostages in Gaza after they were “mistakenly identified … as a threat,” the country’s military said Friday. Israeli military spokesman Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari said it was not clear if the hostages had escaped their captors or were abandoned. The shooting occurred in the Shijaiyah neighborhood of central Gaza City, he said. Two of the three victims were identified as Yotam Haim and Samer Talalka.

“The IDF expresses deep remorse over the tragic incident and sends the families its heartfelt condolences,” the military said. “Our national mission is to locate the missing and return all the hostages home.” The Israeli military reviewed the shooting and said that “immediate lessons from the event have been learned.”

Israeli military mistakenly kills 3 hostages in Gaza (msn.com)

Edited December 15, 2023 by Grim Reaper 6

[+and-then]

I wonder how many other Israeli casualties this may lead to?  Once this news is spread through the force, they'll probably be second guessing every close contact  

There was an incident in an Israeli city where a couple of terrorists had opened fire on the street and an Israeli citizen stopped, engaged them and kille both of them only to then be killed, himself by IDF soldiers who were responding to the incident.  Those soldiers will carry that guilt the rest of their lives, even though they had no intention of killing one of their own.

[Grim Reaper 6]

2 minutes ago, and-then said:

I wonder how many other Israeli casualties this may lead to?  Once this news is spread through the force, they'll probably be second guessing every close contact

I certainly think they need to be much more careful when fighting within a city where the civilian population has not been evacuated and that far too many Palestinian civilians have died in this exact same manner. This only further shows that the IDF is not taking the time to properly distinguish between civilian and military targets which they should be. Unfortunately, this time hostages paid the ultimate price due to an inadequate set of ROE - Rules of Engagement, hopefully they will correct this problem very so no more innocent people loose their lives needlessly.

2 minutes ago, and-then said:

There was an incident in an Israeli city where a couple of terrorists had opened fire on the street and an Israeli citizen stopped, engaged them and kille both of them only to then be killed, himself by IDF soldiers who were responding to the incident.  Those soldiers will carry that guilt the rest of their lives, even though they had no intention of killing one of their own.

I totally agree with you, and it’s a sad state of affairs that certainly could have been avoided!

[+and-then]

4 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

that far too many Palestinian civilians have died in this exact same manner. This only further shows that the IDF is not taking the time to properly distinguish between civilian and military targets which they should be

I think this is an assumption without evidence.  The IDF waited nearly two weeks before they even went in on the ground.  They tried through every means of media to spread the word for civilians to get out.  If you look at the battle damage in Gaza City, it shows the precision with which the IAF was striking targets.  The world is judging the IDF because of their inability to strike the demons who slaughtered their fellow citizens, without killing any civilians.  That's the whole reason Hamas hides under them.  Israel's choice is to not fight back at all, or to be condemned by the world.  This time, they need to finish Hamas no matter how many casualties it costs because if they don't, those Gazans who escaped today will only die later when Hamas repeats their atrocities.  This question all comes down to one side believing Israel is wrong, no matter what, and the other side recognizing that Israel cannot survive with such a threat on their doorstep.

I have no idea how this installment of the tragedy ends, but ultimately we know that Israel will be abandoned by all allies, surrounded by a coalition of Islamic nations and the world will be celebrating that FINALLY the Jews are going to be wiped out of Palestine.  THEN... Israel's enemies are going to be so completely routed that they never have to fear them again.  Especially the Palestinians.  Because they have hated and murdered so relentlessly, God is going to remove ALL OF THEM.  

[Grim Reaper 6]

2 minutes ago, and-then said:

I think this is an assumption without evidence.  The IDF waited nearly two weeks before they even went in on the ground.  They tried through every means of media to spread the word for civilians to get out.  If you look at the battle damage in Gaza City, it shows the precision with which the IAF was striking targets.  The world is judging the IDF because of their inability to strike the demons who slaughtered their fellow citizens, without killing any civilians.

Its obviously not an assumption my friend the IDF just killed 3 Israeli hostages. This fact says two things. first their intelligence network is not working and second their ROE - Rules of Engagement is broken or they are indiscriminately killing anything that moves without provocation. Because, if they were acting in a reasonable fashion and if they had a ROE that protected civilians those 3 hostages would still be alive my friend!

The world certainly is judging the IDF, but not because its expected that no civilians will kill. They are being judged because of the number / ages of civilians killed and the locations where those civilian are being kill.

2 minutes ago, and-then said:

That's the whole reason Hamas hides under them.  Israel's choice is to not fight back at all, or to be condemned by the world.  This time, they need to finish Hamas no matter how many casualties it costs because if they don't, those Gazans who escaped today will only die later when Hamas repeats their atrocities.  This question all comes down to one side believing Israel is wrong, no matter what, and the other side recognizing that Israel cannot survive with such a threat on their doorstep.

No Israels job is to protect civilians that are stuck in the middle of the fighting. Every day, I watch the news a representative of the IDF is asked questions about how they are protecting the civilian population, civilian deaths and what are the Rules of Engagement. Then they report that they have told the civilian population to move from North to South or some other direction depending upon the day.

This is not giving civilians a fair chance to save their own lives because of the circumstances the civilian population cannot comply even if they choose too. The Gaza strip is 41 miles long and 6 to 12 miles wide and it is completely encircled by wall that is fortified and designed to keep the Palestinians in. So, please tell me under these circumstances how can the Palestinian Refugees comply with Israels instructions to move??

I totally disagree with your following comments ""This time, they need to finish Hamas no matter how many casualties it costs because if they don't, those Gazans who escaped today will only die later when Hamas repeats their atrocities"" If Israeli fights in the manner you have said they are breaking Internation law and they are committing crimes against humanity and that makes them no better than Hamas and their PM should be tried by International Criminal Court at The Hague. 

I also disagree with your comments here "" This question all comes down to one side believing Israel is wrong, no matter what, and the other side recognizing that Israel cannot survive with such a threat on their doorstep. "" Well, I don't fall into either Category, I believe that Hamas must pay for their crimes, and that Israel must be supported to prevent their destruction. But I don't believe that Genocide is the solution either and anyone who implements a policy like that is a War Criminal!

2 minutes ago, and-then said:

I have no idea how this installment of the tragedy ends, but ultimately we know that Israel will be abandoned by all allies, surrounded by a coalition of Islamic nations and the world will be celebrating that FINALLY the Jews are going to be wiped out of Palestine.  THEN... Israel's enemies are going to be so completely routed that they never have to fear them again.  Especially the Palestinians.  Because they have hated and murdered so relentlessly, God is going to remove ALL OF THEM.  

The bolded above is no worth answering because in that paragraph your unable to control your anger and because your comments are unrealistic!

Peace

[acidhead]

"we become what we hate" 

 

[acidhead]

Just now, acidhead said:

"we become what we hate" 

 

Longer video 

 

[Tatetopa]

1 hour ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

Its obviously not an assumption my friend the IDF just killed 3 Israeli hostages. This fact says two things. first their intelligence network is not working and second their ROE - Rules of Engagement is broken or they are indiscriminately killing anything that moves without provocation. Because, if they were acting in a reasonable fashion and if they had a ROE that protected civilians those 3 hostages would still be alive my friend!

Yes, exactly.  This is also exactly what American advisors were trying to warn Israel about because we have lived through 25 years of Iraq and Afghanistan.  Fallujah comes to mind.  We predicted this , we told the Israelis this would happen, then we backed off and told them it was their choice.  They chose this.  We are trying to support them in that decision while trying to prevent unnecessary civilian deaths.  Today's report was that 45% of bombs dropped were untargeted, dumb bombs, not precision munition.

As per your comment below, support for Hamas has been growing on the West Bank.  Killing civilians brings press, brings sympathy, brings support, brings more volunteers to Hamas. We tried to tell them what our experience has been, they have to live it for themselves. And somehow after all of this we have to find a way to reach a peaceful settlement.  

1 hour ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

I totally disagree with your following comments ""This time, they need to finish Hamas no matter how many casualties it costs because if they don't, those Gazans who escaped today will only die later when Hamas repeats their atrocities"" If Israeli fights in the manner you have said they are breaking Internation law and they are committing crimes against humanity and that makes them no better than Hamas and their PM should be tried by International Criminal Court at The Hague. 

[Grim Reaper 6]

3 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Yes, exactly.  This is also exactly what American advisors were trying to warn Israel about because we have lived through 25 years of Iraq and Afghanistan.  Fallujah comes to mind.  We predicted this , we told the Israelis this would happen, then we backed off and told them it was their choice.  They chose this.  We are trying to support them in that decision while trying to prevent unnecessary civilian deaths.  Today's report was that 45% of bombs dropped were untargeted, dumb bombs, not precision munition.

The United States Military during my Career always took the protection of Civilians on the battlefield very very seriously. Before ground targets were authorized using drones or aircraft the situation was evaluated concerning the current ROE - Rules of Engagement and a casualty rate for civilians was established. If these criteria showed that there would be a large loss of civilian life other methods were used to destroy the target that would reduce collateral damage to the civilian population.

Fallujah was a great example of this. Before US Soldiers went into Fallujah the civilian population was evacuated and it was made clear that anyone of fighting age that didn't leave would be a target. In addition to this the US didn't attack hospitals, medical facilities, refugee camps and other locations where civilians were concentrated. That is how fighting in cities was and still is conducted by the US Military, but obviously not by Israel. 

When comparing my comments to how Israel has perused the war in Gaza it is very obvious their so-called protection of the civilian population is mouth service only and also that the Israelis see no difference between Hamas and Gaza's Palestinian population. So, from what I have seen so far amounts to war crimes perpetrated against Gaza's Palestinian Civilian population.

I would bet before this is all said and done that The ICC - International Criminal Court at The Hague brings war crimes charges against the Israeli leadership just like they did with Putin over war crimes perpetuated in the Ukraine.

3 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

As per your comment below, support for Hamas has been growing on the West Bank.  Killing civilians brings press, brings sympathy, brings support, brings more volunteers to Hamas. We tried to tell them what our experience has been, they have to live it for themselves. And somehow after all of this we have to find a way to reach a peaceful settlement.  

For every innocent civilian or child that is killed another group of previously innocent civilians (family members) join the terrorist ranks, out of Anger, Grief, and to exact retribution against those who killed their family members. For me at least I am unable to see a peaceful resolution ever being reached, there has been to death and destruction for either side to consider peace.

JIMHO

[Tatetopa]

3 minutes ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

For me at least I am unable to see a peaceful resolution ever being reached, there has been to death and destruction for either side to consider peace.

Oh, I cannot see it either, but I know it has to happen.  We have to try and my hope is for young people to push it forward.  If fallible weak humans can't do it, we will have to rely on the Arabian Warrior and Thunder God,  Yaweh to do it his way by wiping everybody out.

I think we ought to try really hard first.

[Grim Reaper 6]

3 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Oh, I cannot see it either, but I know it has to happen.  We have to try and my hope is for young people to push it forward.  If fallible weak humans can't do it, we will have to rely on the Arabian Warrior and Thunder God,  Yaweh to do it his way by wiping everybody out.

I think we ought to try really hard first.

I certainly agree we certainly need to do everything possible to find a solution, and I hope somehow it happens!!

[Setton]

Kind of calls into question claims to protect Palestinian civilians when they shoot their own civilians while they're waving a white flag...

[Grim Reaper 6]

2 hours ago, Setton said:

Kind of calls into question claims to protect Palestinian civilians when they shoot their own civilians while they're waving a white flag...

The White Flag tells it all and it proves their So Called protection of Palestinian Civilians is just a bunch of BS.

This situation caught them with their pants down and it leaves no doubt what their soldiers have been given for ROE - Rules of Engagement!! I mean they shot the two male's hostages while one of them was carrying a White Flag and then chased they chased female hostage down and killed her in a nearby building without paying attention to the fact she was trying to identify her; all I can say is this is such a terrible situation!!!😞

Edited December 16, 2023 by Grim Reaper 6

[Tatetopa]

What do you call a person who kills to protect his family and home?  A  warrior or a soldier.

What do you call someone who kills for revenge or personal satisfaction?

[+and-then]

18 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

If Israeli fights in the manner you have said they are breaking Internation law and they are committing crimes against humanity

This is simply not true.  Israel was attacked and is responding against their attackers.  The fact that those demons intentionally place civilians between themselves and the IDF does NOT negate the IDF's right to continue killing their enemies in Hamas.  In fact, the very act of holding hostages or using civilians as human shields NULLIFIES the rule against using lethal force in such situations, just as the sanctity and protection of schools, hospitals, and mosques, disappears as soon as one of the combatants uses them as cover to attack their enemies from.  

No, the reality is that too many people here are listening to the noise from the Leftists spinning in the media to attack Israel.  In fact, Israel could be raining true hell on that enclave and still be within those "laws of war".  No, they need to finish this this time or the next time will inevitably be worse.  The world needs to back the hell off, shut up and stay out of the way.  If they want to sanction Israel, go for it.  They'd end the sanctions in very short order because the world depends on Israel's IT advances.  I guess those who are "righteously indignant" could call for an invasion of Israel to stop their fight but that isn't going to end well.

It looks like Netanyahu is telling DC to back off and get out of the way and I'm glad he's finally finding the strength to stand against the Tan Messiah's puppet regime.

[Setton]

4 minutes ago, and-then said:

In fact, the very act of holding hostages or using civilians as human shields NULLIFIES the rule against using lethal force in such situations, just as the sanctity and protection of schools, hospitals, and mosques, disappears as soon as one of the combatants uses them as cover to attack their enemies from.  

That's not true. While normally banned targets can become legitimate ones if used by enemy combatants for military purposes, the military value of targeting them still needs to be proportionate to thee risk to civilians. E.g. you can't bomb a full apartment block because one terrorist fired a rocket off the roof.

[+and-then]

4 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

then chased they chased female hostage down and killed her in a nearby building without paying attention to the fact she was trying to identify her

No female hostage was in this group of three.  The IDF has been at war for 70+ days and has lost over 120 soldiers to Hamas by way of ambushes and multiple, creative ways of luring them into kill zones.  If the soldiers were trigger-happy then they'll be punished.  I'd add that by this point, civilians have had a couple of months to understand that when they are warned to leave and choose not to do, they run a very real risk of getting killed in a crossfire.  The great majority of these troops are reserve members of units and were dropped into this duty with little time to train up from their last exercises with the regular army.  Expecting every one of them to have near perfect discipline in such a situation isn't plausible.  Demanding it, just shows that you've bought into the propaganda of the Left on this issue.  

I'm guessing that between this horrible mistake and DC's constant pressure on Israel to restrict their firepower in ways that will effectively allow Hamas to survive, the IDF is going to begin having a far higher numbers of dead and wounded - all for the sake of appeasing a DC government that not only doesn't care if Israel wins, it also prefers that Iran come out of this with its proxy forces still capable of attacking Israel at any given point.  The IDF needs to resort to the kind of action they started with in the north of Gaza, after making it clear that it will do so, and giving the UN and the rest of the screamers a chance to put their money where their propaganda is and begin building shelters and infrastructure in the open areas of southern Gaza near Rafah.  We are well into the third month of this war and Israel has repeatedly said this time they WILL NOT STOP.  If the UN were truly interested in Gazan civilians it would have mobilized a force to begin building temporary housing, including sanitary facilities, clean water sources, and means to heat the shelters.   

As we can see, the UN is far more interested in helping damage Israel and allowing Hamas to survive than in doing anything to help the needy in Gaza.  These facilities are going to be built eventually because of the loss of housing in the north.  Why not begin building them now?  Gaza is mostly empty, barren scrub land.  It wouldn't take the US Army corps of engineers or Navy Seabees very long at all to build such a tent city.  Israel just needs to identify a prospective area that they will not need to bomb due to extant tunnel infrastructure being used by Hamas. They could also by now have flooded the south with medical supplies and food but as we've seen on YT, Hamas thugs simply wait until their civilians have stood in queues to receive aid, then stolen it from them.  

[docyabut2]

Its sad but Hamas was using the hostages as human shields:( 

[Grim Reaper 6]

26 minutes ago, and-then said:

This is simply not true.  Israel was attacked and is responding against their attackers.  The fact that those demons intentionally place civilians between themselves and the IDF does NOT negate the IDF's right to continue killing their enemies in Hamas.  In fact, the very act of holding hostages or using civilians as human shields NULLIFIES the rule against using lethal force in such situations, just as the sanctity and protection of schools, hospitals, and mosques, disappears as soon as one of the combatants uses them as cover to attack their enemies from.

@Setton @Tatetopa @acidhead, I though you may be interested in the information I have added here.    According to the international Criminal Court - ICC buildings and locations that house refugees such as Hospitals, Medical Facilities, Schools, and Refugee Camps and any other location where refugees are housed and are off limits for Rocket, Artillery, and Air Attacks. These facilities must be cleared by ground forces and nothing NULLIFIES the safety of these locations. Since Hamas’s attack on Israel no distinction has been made by Israel about attacking those locations and Israel has violated the International Law of Warfare.

List of areas protected by international law against attacks during war: https://www.trtafrika.com/world/list-of-areas-protected-by-international-law-against-attacks-during-war-15452555.

ICC Prosecutor, Karim A. A. Khan KC, concludes first visit to Israel and State of Palestine by an ICC Prosecutor: “We must show that the law is there, on the front lines, and that it is capable of protecting all”: https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/icc-prosecutor-karim-khan-kc-concludes-first-visit-israel-and-state-palestine-icc-prosecutor

Below in the video is the senior prosecutor from the International Criminal Courts Court outlining charges being brought Israeli for attacking those areas above and much much more and there is no exception Nullification or excuse that relieves Israel from the War Crimes it has committed. Before this ends Israel’s PM will be charged with War Crimes for violating international Law and for attacking the facilities above in addition to other facilities I didn’t. 

 

 

26 minutes ago, and-then said:

No, the reality is that too many people here are listening to the noise from the Leftists spinning in the media to attack Israel.  In fact, Israel could be raining true hell on that enclave and still be within those "laws of war".  No, they need to finish this this time or the next time will inevitably be worse.  The world needs to back the hell off, shut up and stay out of the way.  If they want to sanction Israel, go for it.  They'd end the sanctions in very short order because the world depends on Israel's IT advances.  I guess those who are "righteously indignant" could call for an invasion of Israel to stop their fight but that isn't going to end well.

Before you to embarrass yourself please do some research because you will discover that you’re sadly mistaken. I supplied sources of information fir you above that explain the legalities that Israel is violating according to International Law and the Geneva Convention. The investigation has begun and if BIBI is found guilty warrants for his arrest and for the arrest of other member’s of his country will occur and subsequently they will be indicted by both NATO and The International Criminal Court - ICC located at the The Hague just like Vladimir Putin was.

26 minutes ago, and-then said:

It looks like Netanyahu is telling DC to back off and get out of the way and I'm glad he's finally finding the strength to stand against the Tan Messiah's puppet regime.

 

[+and-then]

17 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

The United States Military during my Career always took the protection of Civilians on the battlefield very very seriously. Before ground targets were authorized using drones or aircraft the situation was evaluated concerning the current ROE - Rules of Engagement and a casualty rate for civilians was established. If these criteria showed that there would be a large loss of civilian life other methods were used to destroy the target that would reduce collateral damage to the civilian population.

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians#:~:text=The U.S. post-9%2F11,a result of the wars.

By this standard, I'd say Israel is doing pretty well.

[docyabut2]

 

2 hour(s) ago

PINNED

Israel-Hamas war: Netanyahu says military pressure 'will lead to the release' of all hostages

 

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said at a Saturday press conference that the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) must continue their offensive in Gaza in order to free the remaining Gaza hostages

[Grim Reaper 6]

2 minutes ago, and-then said:

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians#:~:text=The U.S. post-9%2F11,a result of the wars.

By this standard, I'd say Israel is doing pretty well.

It’s very very sad, however the information you provided here does not overshadow or nullify the Geneva Convention ot the finding of the International Criminal Court.

[Setton]

14 minutes ago, and-then said:

Why not begin building them now?

Because Israel will bomb them probably...

[+and-then]

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-19

The ICRC disagrees, Reaper.  These kinds of entities are sacrosanct ONLY until one party begins using them to wage war.  It is patently obvious that Hamas is doing just that.  These mentions hospitals but schools and mosques are included as well.  

"The protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy. Protection may, however, cease only after due warning has been given, naming, in all appropriate cases, a reasonable time limit, and after such warning has remained unheeded".

I'd say that what is sad is thinking one is doing a favor to the Palestinians by making it possible for their tyrannical government to keep them under the boot.  The bottom line is that Israel couldn't defend itself at all if civilian deaths were a hindrance to fighting back.  I'd also remind everyone that this bloodshed could end in an hour if Hamas surrendered and asked for terms.  I don't notice any of you guys demanding that though.  It's always ONLY about what Israel must do.

Edited December 17, 2023 by and-then

[Setton]

10 minutes ago, and-then said:

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians#:~:text=The U.S. post-9%2F11,a result of the wars.

By this standard, I'd say Israel is doing pretty well.

False equivalence. Civilians dying as a result of instability following a failed occupation is not the same as civilians killed by the invading force.

Regardless, if your baseline is 'Israel is no worse than the US invading Iraq' that's an incredibly low bar to work with.