Israel is losing the war against Hamas – but Netanyahu and his government will never admit it

[Grim Reaper 6]

Until recently the war narrative on Gaza has been very largely controlled by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and the country’s ministry of defence. Israel’s international reputation may have plummeted with the killing of more than 20,000 Palestinians, the wounding of more than 50,000 and the destruction of much of Gaza, but the IDF could still sell a plausible narrative of a severely weakened Hamas, even claiming that the war in northern Gaza was largely complete, and success in southern Gaza would follow before too long.

A very interesting article please read it before responding. Israel is losing the war against Hamas – but Netanyahu and his government will never admit it (msn.com)

[Tatetopa]

5 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

A very interesting article please read it before responding. Israel is losing the war against Hamas – but Netanyahu and his government will never admit it (msn.com)

Yes,  This is what the US was trying to warn Israel about.  You can't kill an idea with an army, and the more civilians that get killed, the better that idea looks to converts.  

[Grim Reaper 6]

33 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Yes,  This is what the US was trying to warn Israel about.  You can't kill an idea with an army, and the more civilians that get killed, the better that idea looks to converts.  

That’s very true for every civilian death you have entire families want Israeli blood. This is a **** storm thsts going to blow up in Israel’s face. But, Israel’s problems are not only confined to Gaza, Both NATO and the ICC - International Criminal Court are also in the process of indicting Israel for war crimes. You see it’s illegal to bomb, hospital, healthcare clinics, schools, religious buildings both Christian and Muslim, and Refugee camps. There is no doubt these violations occurred because Israel admitted to media sources that they bombed those locations. So, things are going to get much worse in the near future Tate.

[Setton]

41 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Yes,  This is what the US was trying to warn Israel about.  You can't kill an idea with an army, and the more civilians that get killed, the better that idea looks to converts.  

Literally what half of us have been saying since Israel began its offensive.

And all we had was that usual religious nuts claiming we're pro-Hamas anti-Semites.

[simplybill]

The article fails to point out that Hamas started the war, and Hamas has steadfastly refused to end their aggression until they achieve their goal of the genocide of the Jews. 
The author of the article, Paul Rogers, is emeritus professor of peace studies at Bradford University. He should be able to understand that a peace agreement is impossible when one side of the conflict (Hamas) rejects peace.

[Setton]

4 hours ago, simplybill said:

The article fails to point out that Hamas started the war, and Hamas has steadfastly refused to end their aggression until they achieve their goal of the genocide of the Jews. 
The author of the article, Paul Rogers, is emeritus professor of peace studies at Bradford University. He should be able to understand that a peace agreement is impossible when one side of the conflict (Hamas) rejects peace.

Or perhaps the emeritus professor of peace studies has a better understanding of the issues at play than "bill on the internet".

Just a thought.

[Tatetopa]

4 hours ago, simplybill said:

The article fails to point out that Hamas started the war, and Hamas has steadfastly refused to end their aggression until they achieve their goal of the genocide of the Jews. 
The author of the article, Paul Rogers, is emeritus professor of peace studies at Bradford University. He should be able to understand that a peace agreement is impossible when one side of the conflict (Hamas) rejects peace.

Yes, you are correct about that, but it does not matter to the results.  With precision, one might try to eradicate Hamas, find and kill their leaders and find and cut off their finances.  As soon as a call for revenge results in the wholesale slaughter of civilians  and cities are leveled, it is too late.  Human nature will take over.  The 20,000 Palestinians slain have relatives who now have cause to hate Israel.  The refugees bombed out of their homes and left sick and starving will have reason to hate Israel.  Children will not forget what they experience.  Observers all over the world seeing the death and destruction are outraged.  Hamas will gain supporters faster than they lose them.

I agree that Hamas is a terrorist organization and must be neutralized, but Israel's strategy is throwing gas on the fire. That is not a political opinion or an excuse for Hamas, that is just human nature, the US paid a deadly price in Iraq and Afghanistan to learn that lesson.

[simplybill]

9 minutes ago, Setton said:

the issues at play 

I’m sure the Professor has more information on hand, but he only revealed enough of that information to make his opinion appear legit. They’re only 2 1/2 months into the war. It’s much too soon to declare a winner. 

[Tatetopa]

9 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

So, things are going to get much worse in the near future Tate.

Yes, we will be dragged into this and probably end up facing Iran, which will bring joy to some of our cohorts.

Funny for me, an old hippie Vietnam war protestor to say, but I have observed the US Military closely for the last 50 years.  Over that time, I have come to believe that we have some of the wisest people leading our military.  They have made mistakes, but have learned from them.  As Sun Tzu said, the greatest general is the one who can win without fighting.  

[simplybill]

3 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Yes, you are correct about that, but it does not matter to the results.  With precision, one might try to eradicate Hamas, find and kill their leaders and find and cut off their finances.  As soon as a call for revenge results in the wholesale slaughter of civilians  and cities are leveled, it is too late.  Human nature will take over.  The 20,000 Palestinians slain have relatives who now have cause to hate Israel.  The refugees bombed out of their homes and left sick and starving will have reason to hate Israel.  Children will not forget what they experience.  Observers all over the world seeing the death and destruction are outraged.  Hamas will gain supporters faster than they lose them.

I agree that Hamas is a terrorist organization and must be neutralized, but Israel's strategy is throwing gas on the fire. That is not a political opinion or an excuse for Hamas, that is just human nature, the US paid a deadly price in Iraq and Afghanistan to learn that lesson.

At this point, it doesn’t really matter what the rest of the world thinks. IMO, Jewish Genocide has been the goal ever since the 1929 Hebron Massacre. There has been non-stop violence directed toward the Jews for nearly a century. The Oct. 7th massacre cemented the Jewish peoples’ vow to “Never Again” be the victims of a murderous ideology.

For anyone who’s interested, look at the similarities between Oct. 7, 2023, and Aug. 24, 1929:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre

[Grim Reaper 6]

42 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Yes, we will be dragged into this and probably end up facing Iran, which will bring joy to some of our cohorts.

Funny for me, an old hippie Vietnam war protestor to say, but I have observed the US Military closely for the last 50 years.  Over that time, I have come to believe that we have some of the wisest people leading our military.  They have made mistakes, but have learned from them.  As Sun Tzu said, the greatest general is the one who can win without fighting.  

Great Post Tate and I totally agree with you!!

[+and-then]

29 minutes ago, simplybill said:

The Oct. 7th massacre cemented the Jewish peoples’ vow to “Never Again” be the victims of a murderous ideology.

That's the part these poeple cannot seem to grasp.  10/7 changed everything and short of an intrnational force coming in on the side of Hamas, Israel is not going to stop this time.  The world has never been on Israel's "side" and the hate of Jews by the Palestinian Arab Muslims has never abated, not once.  The reason the world is going crazy this time is precisely because Israel has told them in no uncertain terms that they'd better step off or join the fight.  No way Israel will be forced to stop this time.  You'll note that none of them are queuing up to stop The IDF...

[Tatetopa]

21 minutes ago, simplybill said:

At this point, it doesn’t really matter what the rest of the world thinks. IMO, Jewish Genocide has been the goal ever since the 1929 Hebron Massacre. There has been non-stop violence directed toward the Jews for nearly a century. The Oct. 7th massacre cemented the Jewish peoples’ vow to “Never Again” be the victims of a murderous ideology.

For anyone who’s interested, look at the similarities between Oct. 7, 2023, and Aug. 24, 1929:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre

Oh but it does matter what the rest of the world thinks. Although I do not disagree with you or debate the rightness of it, it is about what is, not how it should be.

If an arsonist throws gas on a fire and burns himself, we might say that is justice.  If a 3 year old child pours gas on a fire and burns themselves, we think it is unjust and feel pity and empathy. It doesn't matter to the fire or gasoline, they just do what they do every single time.

There is no military solution to this conflict.  Hamas being evil and willing to sacrifice their own civilians to fuel hatred against Israel is like the gas on the fire, it doesn't matter that Hamas is the arsonist , gasoline and fire behave the same no matter who combines them.  The world begins to look at the civilians like that 3 year old child unjustly burned..

[Setton]

48 minutes ago, simplybill said:

At this point, it doesn’t really matter what the rest of the world thinks. IMO, Jewish Genocide has been the goal ever since the 1929 Hebron Massacre. There has been non-stop violence directed toward the Jews for nearly a century. The Oct. 7th massacre cemented the Jewish peoples’ vow to “Never Again” be the victims of a murderous ideology.

For anyone who’s interested, look at the similarities between Oct. 7, 2023, and Aug. 24, 1929:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre

The irony being that Israel's heavy handed approach is exactly what will make 7/10 happen again.

[Setton]

1 hour ago, simplybill said:

I’m sure the Professor has more information on hand, but he only revealed enough of that information to make his opinion appear legit. They’re only 2 1/2 months into the war. It’s much too soon to declare a winner. 

This conflict is following the exact patterns of Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria and Libya, but with worse civilian casualties. We know exactly how this ends. More radicalisation, more hatred, more death on both sides. Israel doesn't want peace, it wants revenge and collective punishment.

[Grim Reaper 6]

1 hour ago, simplybill said:

At this point, it doesn’t really matter what the rest of the world thinks.

Well, that is not exactly true because International Criminal Court and NATO have both concluded investigations into War Crimes. You see Bill, Bombing Refugee Camps, Hospitals, Medical Centers, Schools and Religious Builds violates the Laws set aside by the ICC - International Criminal Court and the Geneva Convention (NATO) which makes these acts War Crimes, In addition the attack carried out by Hamas is War Crime for the same reasons listed above. So in reality it does matter Bill, and according to documents the Investigations are almost through, the next step will be indictments for both Israel and Hamas.

Israel working to expel civilian population of Gaza, UN expert warns: Israel working to expel civilian population of Gaza, UN expert warns | OHCHR

Statement of ICC Prosecutor Karim A. A. Khan KC from Ramallah on the situation in the State of Palestine and Israel: Statement of ICC Prosecutor Karim A. A. Khan KC from Ramallah on the situation in the State of Palestine and Israel | International Criminal Court (icc-cpi.int)

1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

Oh but it does matter what the rest of the world thinks. Although I do not disagree with you or debate the rightness of it, it is about what is, not how it should be.

If an arsonist throws gas on a fire and burns himself, we might say that is justice.  If a 3 year old child pours gas on a fire and burns themselves, we think it is unjust and feel pity and empathy. It doesn't matter to the fire or gasoline, they just do what they do every single time.

There is no military solution to this conflict.  Hamas being evil and willing to sacrifice their own civilians to fuel hatred against Israel is like the gas on the fire, it doesn't matter that Hamas is the arsonist , gasoline and fire behave the same no matter who combines them.  The world begins to look at the civilians like that 3 year old child unjustly burned..

Edited December 22, 2023 by Grim Reaper 6

[simplybill]

@Tatetopa  @Setton  @Grim Reaper 6

This post is to clarify what I mean by my statement that it doesn’t matter what the rest of the world thinks. 

Israel and Hamas are locked into a situation similar to being in prison, or living in a bad neighborhood: the two main rules are “Don’t show fear”, and “Don’t show weakness”. Hamas is well-aware that they came to power after Fatah blinked on the two-state solution. Many Palestinians lost respect for Fatah and turned to Hamas who has, so far, held to their promise of an all-or-nothing, river-to-the-sea, one-state solution. On October 7th, Hamas put all their cards on the table and made their intentions clear.

Hamas relies on Iran for support, but unlike Hezbollah, they don’t share Iran’s Shiite religion. It’s likely Iran will remain Hamas’ benefactor, so long as Hamas continues to show its determination to defeat Israel. For now, they’re united in purpose  (No doubt Hamas’ reputation took a hit when dozens of their fighters surrendered to the IDF, but when those ‘disgraced’ fighters are released back into Gaza in the inevitable prisoner swap, I suspect they won’t live to see the next sunrise).

Professor Rogers omitted the religious underpinnings of the war:

Iran, of course, is a fundamentalist religious country, and Benjamin Netanyahu won re-election by joining his Likud Party to the hardline Orthodox clergy and citizens of Israel. Call it coincidence or call it prophecy, but both groups are convinced that their respective Messiahs are alive now and their public appearances are imminent, and both sides are making preparations to welcome him (them). For Orthodox Jews, plans for a third Jewish Temple on the Temple Mount are moving forward, while hardline fundamentalist Muslims  are preparing for this:

“In Shi'a Islam, the eschatological Mahdi was commonly given the epithet al-Qa'im which can be translated as 'he who will rise,' signifying his rise against tyranny in the end of time….An intimately related Shi'a notion is that of raj'a (lit. 'return'), which often means the return to life of (some) Shi'a Imams, particularly Husayn ibn Ali, to exact their revenge on their oppressors….”

And we all know who they consider to be their oppressors.

So we have two merit-based religions, and everyone is scrambling to show their allegiance to their soon-to-be-revealed messiahs. And due to its importance in both religions, everyone’s eyes are going to be focused on the Temple Mount. Both sides have strong opinions on how the Temple Mount should be managed, and both sides are prepared to defend their turf.

And as far as the true believers on both sides are concerned, no one else’s opinions matter.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi

 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by simplybill

[Grim Reaper 6]

1 hour ago, simplybill said:

@Tatetopa  @Setton  @Grim Reaper 6

This post is to clarify what I mean by my statement that it doesn’t matter what the rest of the world thinks. 

Israel and Hamas are locked into a situation similar to being in prison, or living in a bad neighborhood: the two main rules are “Don’t show fear”, and “Don’t show weakness”. Hamas is well-aware that they came to power after Fatah blinked on the two-state solution. Many Palestinians lost respect for Fatah and turned to Hamas who has, so far, held to their promise of an all-or-nothing, river-to-the-sea, one-state solution. On October 7th, Hamas put all their cards on the table and made their intentions clear.

Hamas relies on Iran for support, but unlike Hezbollah, they don’t share Iran’s Shiite religion. It’s likely Iran will remain Hamas’ benefactor, so long as Hamas continues to show its determination to defeat Israel. For now, they’re united in purpose  (No doubt Hamas’ reputation took a hit when dozens of their fighters surrendered to the IDF, but when those ‘disgraced’ fighters are released back into Gaza in the inevitable prisoner swap, I suspect they won’t live to see the next sunrise).

I am very aware of this, and so far I completely agree with you.

1 hour ago, simplybill said:

Professor Rogers omitted the religious underpinnings of the war:

Iran, of course, is a fundamentalist religious country, and Benjamin Netanyahu won re-election by joining his Likud Party to the hardline Orthodox clergy and citizens of Israel. Call it coincidence or call it prophecy, but both groups are convinced that their respective Messiahs are alive now and their public appearances are imminent, and both sides are making preparations to welcome him (them). For Orthodox Jews, plans for a third Jewish Temple on the Temple Mount are moving forward, while hardline fundamentalist Muslims  are preparing for this:

I also am aware of this and also completely agree with you.

1 hour ago, simplybill said:

“In Shi'a Islam, the eschatological Mahdi was commonly given the epithet al-Qa'im which can be translated as 'he who will rise,' signifying his rise against tyranny in the end of time….An intimately related Shi'a notion is that of raj'a (lit. 'return'), which often means the return to life of (some) Shi'a Imams, particularly Husayn ibn Ali, to exact their revenge on their oppressors….”

And we all know who they consider to be their oppressors.

I learned something here, thank you very much for sharing!

1 hour ago, simplybill said:

So we have two merit-based religions, and everyone is scrambling to show their allegiance to their soon-to-be-revealed messiahs. And due to its importance in both religions, everyone’s eyes are going to be focused on the Temple Mount. Both sides have strong opinions on how the Temple Mount should be managed, and both sides are prepared to defend their turf.

And as far as the true believers on both sides are concerned, no one else’s opinions matter.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi

this has been the case since 1948 when Israel became a State, and nothing has changed since then and I doubt it ever will.

However, you failed to respond to the post I made concerning War Crimes. Because, that’s not going away, both Israel and Hamas will indicted and charged. If they choose not to face the International Criminal Court they will be tried in absentia and Warrants will issued for those Charged. The same thing happened to Putin for the exact same reason Crimes Against Humanity and now he is very limited concerning where he go. Sooner or later he will be arrested tried and imprisoned at The Hagues prison facilities.

Do you agree with the crimes against humanity that have been committed??

1 hour ago, simplybill said:

Edited December 23, 2023 by Grim Reaper 6

[+joc]

22 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

Until recently the war narrative on Gaza has been very largely controlled by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and the country’s ministry of defence. Israel’s international reputation may have plummeted with the killing of more than 20,000 Palestinians, the wounding of more than 50,000 and the destruction of much of Gaza, but the IDF could still sell a plausible narrative of a severely weakened Hamas, even claiming that the war in northern Gaza was largely complete, and success in southern Gaza would follow before too long.

A very interesting article please read it before responding. Israel is losing the war against Hamas – but Netanyahu and his government will never admit it (msn.com)

Sorry but I don't allow anything that comes from Bill Gates organization to enter my brain.  I wish I'd gone Mac instead of Windows early on but I digress...

Edited December 23, 2023 by joc

[Grim Reaper 6]

7 minutes ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

I am very aware of this, and so far I completely agree with you.

I also am aware of this and also completely agree with you.

I learned something here, thank you very much for sharing!

this has been the case since 1948 when Israel became a State, and nothing has changed since then and I doubt it ever will.

However, you failed to respond to the post I made concerning War Crimes. Because, that’s not going away, both Israel and Hamas will indicted and charged. If they choose not to face the International Criminal Court they will be tried in absentia and Warrants will issued for those Charged. The same thing happened to Putin for the exact same reason Crimes Against Humanity and now he is very limited concerning where he go. Sooner or later he will be arrested tried and imprisoned at The Hagues prison facilities.

Do you agree with the crimes against humanity that have been committed??

@simplybill I think you missed the part above.

 

[Grim Reaper 6]

1 minute ago, joc said:

Sorry but I don't allow anything that comes from Bill Gates organization to enter my brain.  I wish I'd gone Mac instead of Windows early on but I digress...

I dumbed windows 20 years ago in favor of Apple, in fact I am typing this on an IPad Air best tablet I have ever used.

But putting Bill Gates aside, please answer the question do you believe in climate change?

[simplybill]

2 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

Do you agree with the crimes against humanity that have been committed??

No, I don’t agree with or condone any war crimes, on either side. 
But I hope some day to hear a journalist ask a Palestinian civilian, or a Hamas soldier, the question, “What did you expect would be Israel’s response to the Oct. 7 attacks, and the video footage of Palestinians cheering and celebrating as Israeli bodies were dragged through the streets?” 

I don’t condone the war crimes, but I do understand the rage. After enduring nearly a century of attempted (and almost successful) genocide, the Jewish people may have reached the limits of their restraint. 
 

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by simplybill

[+joc]

2 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

I dumbed windows 20 years ago in favor of Apple, in fact I am typing this on an IPad Air best tablet I have ever used.

But putting Bill Gates aside, please answer the question do you believe in climate change?

I already told you I don't believe anything.  There are things I know and there are things I don't know.  One thing that I do know is that the Left has Weaponized Climate Change.  So, I am not buying ANY of what they're selling.  I don't care if the climate kills us all.  It's already a foregone conclusion that we will all die.  No species is immortal.  Life is not immortal.  One day the Earth will cease to be blue and will melt into the sun...and that will have nothing to do with humans.

[qxcontinuum]

On 12/21/2023 at 9:46 PM, Grim Reaper 6 said:

Until recently the war narrative on Gaza has been very largely controlled by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and the country’s ministry of defence. Israel’s international reputation may have plummeted with the killing of more than 20,000 Palestinians, the wounding of more than 50,000 and the destruction of much of Gaza, but the IDF could still sell a plausible narrative of a severely weakened Hamas, even claiming that the war in northern Gaza was largely complete, and success in southern Gaza would follow before too long.

A very interesting article please read it before responding. Israel is losing the war against Hamas – but Netanyahu and his government will never admit it (msn.com)

Israel has not lost but has won a lot. It has turned a terrorist state into rubble,  (I don't call the people of palestine terrorists, they are also victims of the organization that thrive and pray on their very existence), it decimated the infrastructure that terrorists have built in more than 20 years for the only purpose of war, it killed half of hammas terrorists leaders and incapacited Iran to supporting that infrastructure and to get fire power near its borders. 

I am ashamed by the stance Canada and the rest of Eu has taken to blame Israel without calling out hammas leaders and the terrorists attacking USA troops.

My heart is with Israel and I am not even Jewish.  

I hope the war continues and Israel does the same with hezbollah terrorists. No country has wanted or protected jews in the 2nd world war and everyone raised their shoulders to the their problem, holocaust and right to survive. Israel is there to exist and the entire Arab world must and will accept that .  

Edited December 23, 2023 by qxcontinuum

[Grim Reaper 6]

35 minutes ago, qxcontinuum said:

Israel has not lost but has won a lot. It has turned a terrorist state into rubble,  (I don't call the people of palestine terrorists, they are also victims of the organization that thrive and pray on their very existence), it decimated the infrastructure that terrorists have built in more than 20 years for the only purpose of war, it killed half of hammas terrorists leaders and incapacited Iran to supporting that infrastructure and to get fire power near its borders. 

I am ashamed by the stance Canada and the rest of Eu has taken to blame Israel without calling out hammas leaders and the terrorists attacking USA troops.

My heart is with Israel and I am not even Jewish.  

I hope the war continues and Israel does the same with hezbollah terrorists. No country has wanted or protected jews in the 2nd world war and everyone raised their shoulders to the their problem, holocaust and right to survive. Israel is there to exist and the entire Arab world must and will accept that .  

Mostly I agree with you, however I am unable to overlook the War Crimes committed by Hamas and especially Israel. I would expect no less than an terrorist organization like Hamas to commit war crimes, but I am shocked by the fact that Israel has Bombed Schools, Hospitals, Medical centers, religious buildings and Refugee camps. While many condone this behavior and claim all Palestinians as terrorists, I can only shake my head because in no way shape or form are crimes against humanity acceptable so no excuses can be made. If terrorists were hiding in those locations that still does not excuse this behavior. I served in the US Military and after in Government Service for 34 years. I am not someone sitting in an easy chair watching these events unfold on TV. I have seen these situations occur around the world, and no matter what anyone says this behavior cannot be tolerated. Currently Israel and Hamas are under investigation for crimes against humanity by both NATO (violation of the Geneva Convention) and the ICC - International Criminal court. In the near future indictments are going to be issued for both Hamas and Israel.

International Criminal Court - Statement of ICC Prosecutor Karim A. A. Khan KC from Ramallah on the situation in the State of Palestine and Israel | International Criminal Court (icc-cpi.int)

NATO - Israel working to expel civilian population of Gaza, UN expert warns | OHCHR