Israel is losing the war against Hamas – but Netanyahu and his government will never admit it

[Grim Reaper 6]

1 hour ago, simplybill said:

No, I don’t agree with or condone any war crimes, on either side. 
But I hope some day to hear a journalist ask a Palestinian civilian, or a Hamas soldier, the question, “What did you expect would be Israel’s response to the Oct. 7 attacks, and the video footage of Palestinians cheering and celebrating as Israeli bodies were dragged through the streets?” 

I don’t condone the war crimes, but I do understand the rage. After enduring nearly a century of attempted (and almost successful) genocide, the Jewish people may have reached the limits of their restraint. 
 

 

I have always been a strong supporter of Israel, and in my opinion, they have always been an outstanding ally of the United States. Frankly I am shocked that they would commit the crimes that they have committed. I would expect Hamas to commit these crimes because they are a Terrorist Organization, yet I have always held Israel to a higher stand and to date their actions have personally shocked me. You see bombing Schools, Hospitals, Medical Centers, Religious Builds both Christian and Muslim and Refugee camps are crimes against humanity and there is no excuse under any circumstances for doing so. In situations where you have an enemy hiding among civilians, or in any of the above stated locations bombing is illegal. In those situations, you must use ground troops to minimize the civilian casualties and nothing else is acceptable Bill.

Sorry we don't agree I mean you no disrespect, I have always considered you a friend Bill!

[+Hammerclaw]

3 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

I have always been a strong supporter of Israel, and in my opinion, they have always been an outstanding ally of the United States. Frankly I am shocked that they would commit the crimes that they have committed. I would expect Hamas to commit these crimes because they are a Terrorist Organization, yet I have always held Israel to a higher stand and to date their actions have personally shocked me. You see bombing Schools, Hospitals, Medical Centers, Religious Builds both Christian and Muslim and Refugee camps are crimes against humanity and there is no excuse under any circumstances for doing so. In situations where you have an enemy hiding among civilians, or in any of the above stated locations bombing is illegal. In those situations, you must use ground troops to minimize the civilian casualties and nothing else is acceptable Bill.

Sorry we don't agree I mean you no disrespect, I have always considered you a friend Bill!

Myself, I don't think nuclear powers have any moral high ground from which to cast stones. I mean, considering they have each other's civilian population centers targeted in a potential nuclear exchange. Also, considering the rather muted response to the Russian atrocities committed against the civilian population of Ukraine, I find all the hand-wringing and sudden moral piety concerning the Gazans quite disingenuous.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Hammerclaw

[Grim Reaper 6]

1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

Myself, I don't think nuclear powers have any moral high ground from which to cast stones. I mean, considering they have each other's civilian population centers targeted in a potential nuclear exchange. Also, considering the rather muted response to the Russian atrocities committed against the civilian population of Ukraine, I find all the handwringing and sudden moral piety concerning the Gazans quite disingenuous.

Well, I don’t know if you’re aware of this but Putin was Indicted by the ICC - International Criminal Court and they have issued an arrest warrant for him. The ICC doesn’t have a Police Force, member Nations carry out the Arrests of individuals with a warrant that is outstanding. After arrest they are tried, and if found guilty sentenced and imprisoned at the ICC prison facility at The Hague. So, I can’t agree with you, Crimes Against Humanity or War Crimes should be prosecuted and while I fully expected Hamas to Commit these crimes. I was very disappointed that Israel followed suit. If you would like to see where the current level of the investigation stand I can post the paper work from bothe NATO and the ICC, I don’t have it on this tablet I wold need to post from my MAC where it is stored.

[+Hammerclaw]

12 minutes ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

Well, I don’t know if you’re aware of this but Putin was Indicted by the ICC - International Criminal Court and they have issued an arrest warrant for him. The ICC doesn’t have a Police Force, member Nations carry out the Arrests of individuals with a warrant that is outstanding. After arrest they are tried, and if found guilty sentenced and imprisoned at the ICC prison facility at The Hague. So, I can’t agree with you, Crimes Against Humanity or War Crimes should be prosecuted and while I fully expected Hamas to Commit these crimes. I was very disappointed that Israel followed suit. If you would like to see where the current level of the investigation stand I can post the paper work from bothe NATO and the ICC, I don’t have it on this tablet I wold need to post from my MAC where it is stored.

Not interested. I don't care. I don't care about the Gazans any more than we cared about the Japanese and German civilian populations when we firebombed their cities in WWII. As far as this conflict is concerned and considering the Israeli civilian casualties inflicted by the Gazans, the Israelis feel them, justifiably, an existential threat and wage total war appropriately and with a lot more restraint than we would under proportionately similarly circumstances.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Hammerclaw

[Grim Reaper 6]

1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

Not interested. I don't care. I don't care about the Gazans any more than we cared about the Japanese and German civilian populations when we firebombed their cities in WWII. As far as this conflict is concerned and considering the Israeli civilian casualties inflicted by the Gazans, the Israelis feel them, justifiably, and existential threat and wage total war appropriately and with a lot more restraint than we would under proportionately similarly circumstances.

You're welcome to your opinion, but the Geneva Convention was updated and the current crimes against humanity was written So, there was no guidance on how to persecute war until then, so what happened in WWII is applicable. In my 34 years of Military and Government Serice 1978 - 2019 the United States never violated the Geneva Convention to my knowledge if you know otherwise, please post a source.

Again, you certainly welcome to your opinion so we must agree to respectfully disagree.

[+Hammerclaw]

11 minutes ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

You're welcome to your opinion, but the Geneva Convention was updated and the current crimes against humanity was written So, there was no guidance on how to persecute war until then, so what happened in WWII is applicable. In my 34 years of Military and Government Serice 1978 - 2019 the United States never violated the Geneva Convention to my knowledge if you know otherwise, please post a source.

Again, you certainly welcome to your opinion so we must agree to respectfully disagree.

Considering we plan on violating it by targeting civilian population centers, I find such moral judgmentalism farcical, beating our breast for the few, while giving a wink and a nod to the tens of millions. 

Edited December 23, 2023 by Hammerclaw

[Grim Reaper 6]

Just now, Hammerclaw said:

Considering we plan on violating it by targeting civilian population centers, I find such moral judgmentalism farcical, beating our breast for the few, while giving a wink and a nod to the tens millions. 

I have no idea what your talking here to be honest.

[+Hammerclaw]

1 minute ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

I have no idea what your talking here to be honest.

Of course, you do. If M.A.D. is triggered, what will happen to Russian or Chinese civilian population centers? If New York or Washington is nuked, our civilian population attacked, are we then free from the constraints of the Geneva Convention? If so, how is it that Israel is not, with their civilian population attacked and slaughtered?

[Grim Reaper 6]

2 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Of course, you do. If M.A.D. is triggered, what will happen to Russian or Chinese civilian population centers? If New York or Washington is nuked, our civilian population attacked, are we then free from the constraints of the Geneva Convention? If so, how is it that Israel is not, with their civilian population attacked and slaughtered?

First of all were not talking about MAD, if that ever occurs everything else is meaningless so it serves no purpose in this situation. Because Israel is a signatory of the Geneva Convention, they are fully aware of the laws, they signed GC on in 1951 and they signed the updated protocols in 2007. Israel was fully aware that Bombing Hospitals, Medical Centers, Schools, Religious Centers, Christian and Muslim and Refugee Camps were in violation of both the Geneva Convention and International Law, and they committed the crimes anyway. There is no excuse for bombing the above listed facilities. If you have enemy combatants hiding in those locations, it's required by law to use ground forces to minimize civilian casualties. I am very disappointed that they violated those laws, I have always been a strong supporter of Israel, however, I will not condone their actions and neither do the Governing Bodies that are going to prosecute their actions.

[Setton]

1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

Myself, I don't think nuclear powers have any moral high ground from which to cast stones. I mean, considering they have each other's civilian population centers targeted in a potential nuclear exchange. Also, considering the rather muted response to the Russian atrocities committed against the civilian population of Ukraine, I find all the hand-wringing and sudden moral piety concerning the Gazans quite disingenuous.

Muted response?

Russia has been hit with practically every sanction available, there are war crimes investigations and indictments against a swathe of senior politicians and commanders.

Other than invading Russia to arrest them, what do you want to happen? None of these things have been done against ear criminals from Israel.

[+Hammerclaw]

45 minutes ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

First of all were not talking about MAD, if that ever occurs everything else is meaningless so it serves no purpose in this situation. Because Israel is a signatory of the Geneva Convention, they are fully aware of the laws, they signed GC on in 1951 and they signed the updated protocols in 2007. Israel was fully aware that Bombing Hospitals, Medical Centers, Schools, Religious Centers, Christian and Muslim and Refugee Camps were in violation of both the Geneva Convention and International Law, and they committed the crimes anyway. There is no excuse for bombing the above listed facilities. If you have enemy combatants hiding in those locations, it's required by law to use ground forces to minimize civilian casualties. I am very disappointed that they violated those laws, I have always been a strong supporter of Israel, however, I will not condone their actions and neither do the Governing Bodies that are going to prosecute their actions.

By its occupation of Palestinian land, Israel has been in violation of the Geneva convention for 57 years. Good luck with following through with your prosecutions.

[docyabut2]

Israel is going to win over another Hitler

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1699782656-hitler-s-mein-kampf-found-in-hamas-base-in-gaza-israeli-president-herzog

 😟

Edited December 23, 2023 by docyabut2

[Kittens Are Jerks]

16 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

Well, that is not exactly true because International Criminal Court and NATO have both concluded investigations into War Crimes. You see Bill, Bombing Refugee Camps, Hospitals, Medical Centers, Schools and Religious Builds violates the Laws set aside by the ICC - International Criminal Court and the Geneva Convention (NATO) which makes these acts War Crimes, In addition the attack carried out by Hamas is War Crime for the same reasons listed above. So in reality it does matter Bill, and according to documents the Investigations are almost through, the next step will be indictments for both Israel and Hamas.

Want to know what also matters? False accusations.

Whilst civilian buildings are protected under international law, that protection is very much conditional. Once buildings such as schools, hospitals and mosques, are used in ways other than their intended purpose (such as housing combatants, terrorists and/or weapons, for example) they lose that protection and become legitimate military targets.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Kittens Are Jerks
Grammatical correction.

[+Hammerclaw]

16 minutes ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

Want to know what also matters? False accusations.

Whilst civilian buildings are protected under international law, that protection is very much conditional. Once buildings such as schools, hospitals and mosques, are used in ways other than their intended purpose (such as housing combatants, terrorists and/or weapons) they lose that protection and become legitimate military targets.

Which makes unintended civilian casualties unfortunate collateral damage. The Gaza campaign reminds me of the Battle for Hue in Annam during the Tet offensive, where you couldn't take ten paces without running into civilians. The Citadel, across the Perfume River housed two thirds of Hues population, where ole Victor Charlie and NV regulars were dug in the deepest.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Hammerclaw

[+joc]

9 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

Mostly I agree with you, however I am unable to overlook the War Crimes committed by Hamas and especially Israel. I would expect no less than an terrorist organization like Hamas to commit war crimes, but I am shocked by the fact that Israel has Bombed Schools, Hospitals, Medical centers, religious buildings and Refugee camps. While many condone this behavior and claim all Palestinians as terrorists, I can only shake my head because in no way shape or form are crimes against humanity acceptable so no excuses can be made. If terrorists were hiding in those locations that still does not excuse this behavior. I served in the US Military and after in Government Service for 34 years. I am not someone sitting in an easy chair watching these events unfold on TV. I have seen these situations occur around the world, and no matter what anyone says this behavior cannot be tolerated. Currently Israel and Hamas are under investigation for crimes against humanity by both NATO (violation of the Geneva Convention) and the ICC - International Criminal court. In the near future indictments are going to be issued for both Hamas and Israel.

International Criminal Court - Statement of ICC Prosecutor Karim A. A. Khan KC from Ramallah on the situation in the State of Palestine and Israel | International Criminal Court (icc-cpi.int)

NATO - Israel working to expel civilian population of Gaza, UN expert warns | OHCHR

War is hell.  War Crimes?

War itself is a crime...innocent casualties are a part of war. What was Israel's crime? How does that differ from what we did in Hiroshima and Nagasaki?🤔

[Setton]

51 minutes ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

Want to know what also matters? False accusations.

Whilst civilian buildings are protected under international law, that protection is very much conditional. Once buildings such as schools, hospitals and mosques, are used in ways other than their intended purpose (such as housing combatants, terrorists and/or weapons, for example) they lose that protection and become legitimate military targets.

No. They become legitimate targets for a proportional response. So clearing with ground troops, yes. Shelling a hospital because it might have weapons stored in it, no.

[Grim Reaper 6]

6 hours ago, joc said:

War is hell.  War Crimes?

War itself is a crime...innocent casualties are a part of war. What was Israel's crime? How does that differ from what we did in Hiroshima and Nagasaki?🤔

There is no difference, however after WWII the President of the United States, Britain and some other countries found the needless killing of civilians was abhorrent. So they took two existing documents combined them and updated them (international humanitarian laws - International Legal Standards). This new updated document was called the Geneva Convention and it was signed and ratified into law in 1949. 

 

[Grim Reaper 6]

8 hours ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

Want to know what also matters? False accusations.

Whilst civilian buildings are protected under international law, that protection is very much conditional. Once buildings such as schools, hospitals and mosques, are used in ways other than their intended purpose (such as housing combatants, terrorists and/or weapons, for example) they lose that protection and become legitimate military targets.

Do you have a source that verifies your comments above?

I am always willing to learn something new.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you.

[+joc]

2 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

There is no difference, however after WWII the President of the United States, Britain and some other countries found the needless killing of civilians was abhorrent. So they took two existing documents combined them and updated them (international humanitarian laws - International Legal Standards). This new updated document was called the Geneva Convention and it was signed and ratified into law in 1949. 

 

So freaking what?  What is the difference between what Hamas did to Israel and what Israel did to Gaza?  They started a war, war is hell.  And...what would we do if N. Korea sent an ICBM towards the US?  You already said they would cease to exist!  So...outside of a nuclear exchange ...no targeting of civilians?  I'm not doubting what the documents say...I'm just saying in the real world all that feel good, fuzzy crap isn't worth a hill of chinese beans.

[Unusual Tournament]

On 12/22/2023 at 6:42 PM, Tatetopa said:

Yes,  This is what the US was trying to warn Israel about.  You can't kill an idea with an army, and the more civilians that get killed, the better that idea looks to converts.  

I think the Biden administration can see Hamas has won the propaganda war and is looking for votes next year. 

[Grim Reaper 6]

15 minutes ago, joc said:

So freaking what?  What is the difference between what Hamas did to Israel and what Israel did to Gaza?  They started a war, war is hell.  And...what would we do if N. Korea sent an ICBM towards the US?  You already said they would cease to exist!  So...outside of a nuclear exchange ...no targeting of civilians?  I'm not doubting what the documents say...I'm just saying in the real world all that feel good, fuzzy crap isn't worth a hill of chinese beans.

Well to take a page from your play book, I just don't really care, because I care about anything!!!

[Setton]

57 minutes ago, joc said:

What is the difference between what Hamas did to Israel and what Israel did to Gaza? 

One is a nation state and we treat it as such. The other is a terrorist organisation, and we treat them as such. That's the difference.

[qxcontinuum]

20 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

Mostly I agree with you, however I am unable to overlook the War Crimes committed by Hamas and especially Israel. .......... Geneva Convention) and the ICC - International Criminal court. In the near future indictments are going to be issued for both Hamas and Israel.

International Criminal Court - Statement of ICC Prosecutor Karim A. A. Khan KC from Ramallah on the situation in the State of Palestine and Israel | International Criminal Court (icc-cpi.int)

NATO - Israel working to expel civilian population of Gaza, UN expert warns | OHCHR

The situation is a conundrum 😞

- israel has to finish hamas once for all and eliminate its constant thread.

- hamms gets the support of palestinian citizens that's clear. Has built and blend its infrastructure in civilian areas. Many of the hamms supporters are warriors during the day and family men at night ( same as Israel). In fact many of the terrorists who attacked Israel and committed those attarocities were recruited civilians. 

- civilians refuse to move out their homes which happens to be built on hamms tunnels. I saw a documentary of a Canadian family there refusing to move days, before Israel has called out attacks in that area.

- I saw a UN sponsored school , having tons of weapons and rpg's hidden in their walls. 

- a lot of so called civilians are apparently hammas terrorists trying to escape. Reason of why Egypt and lebanon refuses to take the civilians. 

- hammas puts thir hands on majority of aid,food and support , Eu sends. 

 

I literally see both sides struggle and there's no easy way to resolve this. This is why civilians should never accept and support a government that seeks violence and religious extremism. In then end they are suffering and for what exactly? 😢 

 

Edited December 24, 2023 by qxcontinuum

[docyabut2]

House committee to launch investigation into UN agency for alleged 'troubling connection' to Hamas

One member of the House committee said there's 'extensive' evidence of ties between the UNRWA and Hamas

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/house-committee-launch-investigation-un-agency-alleged-troubling-connection-hamas

[Tatetopa]

1 hour ago, Unusual Tournament said:

I think the Biden administration can see Hamas has won the propaganda war and is looking for votes next year. 

Yes, but I think it is more as well.  The US  has learned by costly mistakes, I think we are shifting foreign policy to improve our strategy and outcomes over the next decades.  Peace and stability are good for business.    I think it would be wonderful to move more into the role of world EMT, helping with disasters and  promoting peace rather than being the world's policeman.