Israel is losing the war against Hamas – but Netanyahu and his government will never admit it

[Grim Reaper 6]

3 hours ago, qxcontinuum said:

The situation is a conundrum 😞

- israel has to finish hamas once for all and eliminate its constant thread.

- hamms gets the support of palestinian citizens that's clear. Has built and blend its infrastructure in civilian areas. Many of the hamms supporters are warriors during the day and family men at night ( same as Israel). In fact many of the terrorists who attacked Israel and committed those attarocities were recruited civilians.

I agree with you, and this conundrum is very very common. In fact in every conflict I fought in the only time this was not a factor was during Operation Desert Storm. During this conflict the civilian populatrion actually wanted Sadam gone, They had suffered at his and his families hands for manys before this conflict started, I will never forget, when the cease fire was called. The City of Basara was less then 2 kilometers from my location when the war ended.

At, this point our ROE - Rules of Engagement immediately changed and instructions where simple, we were no longer allowed to fire on Iraqi forces unless they fired on us first. This created a conundrum for almost immediately because the Citizens of Basara began to attack Republican Guard forces within the city. At first, they were successful and then a Iraqi Armored Brigade surrounded the city and began to indiscriminately began to literally slaughter the Civilian population and due to the ROE all we could do was watch!!!!

This was terrible day because we could hear the screams of women and children dying, and it personally made sick. Because, we had the ability to stop and to destroy the Iraqi forces but because of our rules of engagement we could nothing!!!!

3 hours ago, qxcontinuum said:

- civilians refuse to move out their homes which happens to be built on hamms tunnels. I saw a documentary of a Canadian family there refusing to move days, before Israel has called out attacks in that area.

This where we disagree, as far as civilians not moving South from Northern areas. You must take into consideration the fact that the Gaza Strip is approximately 25 miles long and approximately 6 wide at its widest point, with a population of approximately 2 million people.

So, let me ask you where the hell are these people supposed to go and how will they get there??

Do believe that anyone would simple just abandon everything they own, and start walking South, would you??

Look what ended up happening hundreds of thousand of people start heading South some made it and other were bombed while moving South, So gain in such a small area as the Gaza Strip where is it really safe??

 

3 hours ago, qxcontinuum said:

- I saw a UN sponsored school , having tons of weapons and rpg's hidden in their walls. 

- a lot of so called civilians are apparently hammas terrorists trying to escape. Reason of why Egypt and lebanon refuses to take the civilians. 

- hammas puts thir hands on majority of aid,food and support , Eu sends.

On this point i certainly agree with you, Hamas doesn't care what happens to the Palestinian they are tools that are only valuable as human shields nothing more.

3 hours ago, qxcontinuum said:

 

I literally see both sides struggle and there's no easy way to resolve this. This is why civilians should never accept and support a government that seeks violence and religious extremism. In then end they are suffering and for what exactly? 😢 

 

I agree with you and there are no acceptable answers to the question you asked above.

JIMHO

[Tatetopa]

Latest I heard is that an Indian Tanker  was hit in the Indian Ocean by an Iranian drone.  Al least according to US sources.  This may turn into a free for all pretty quickly.  Is GO time?

[Grim Reaper 6]

3 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Latest I heard is that an Indian Tanker  was hit in the Indian Ocean by an Iranian drone.  Al least according to US sources.  This may turn into a free for all pretty quickly.  Is GO time?

Yea I think you right Tate, and Iran will pay a huge Price they are idiots!!!!!

[Tatetopa]

1 hour ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

Yea I think you right Tate, and Iran will pay a huge Price they are idiots!!!!!

Call me a conspiracy nut, but I believe Iran has been making their own deals and strengthening ties to Russia and China.  All three have much to gain by an association with each other  and weakening of the US. and its partners. Between them they have about 30% of the worlds petroleum, raw materials including rich rare earth deposits, high tech manufacturing, cheap labor,  a transportation system spanning continents and modern ports in Europe, the Middle East , and Pacific. A formidable alliance to pit against the West.

Iran can provide a spark to start a brushfire war in any number of places at the drop of a hat.   And as crazy as it sounds, I think Iranian leaders might be willing to sacrifice some of their civilians and a city or two to become global martyrs and sway opinion against the US.   If the US falls into this trap then US and Iran will become locked in a losing combat like Israel and Hamas. I think the admin. is smart right now to avoid that, but if MAGA was in control they would blunder right in. We would be sucked into a conflict.

I think Iran relied too heavily on Russia.  Until the invasion of Ukraine, Russia was assumed to have the second most powerful army in the world. Russia's ace in the hole is not its army, it is is its propaganda arm.  I think their goal is to divide and diminish the United States.       I think Putin is betting heavily on Trump. and the Republicans. He has already convinced the  MAGA cult to back Russia and cut funds to Ukraine. Trump is using Putin as a character reference at his rallies.  You know it could work.  That is a scary thought.

Look at our local MAGA people, eager to wipe out the Palestinians and take on Iran. The bait could be taken, the US committed. Russia and China do not even have to engage militarily. Global opinion will shift toward them followed by trade and power. 

Iran is the red cape, China and Russia are the swords and the US could be the bull charging for the cape and receiving the death blow.  That is why MAGA frightens me,  they have about as much global awareness as that bull

[Grim Reaper 6]

8 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Call me a conspiracy nut, but I believe Iran has been making their own deals and strengthening ties to Russia and China.  All three have much to gain by an association with each other  and weakening of the US. and its partners. Between them they have about 30% of the worlds petroleum, raw materials including rich rare earth deposits, high tech manufacturing, cheap labor,  a transportation system spanning continents and modern ports in Europe, the Middle East , and Pacific. A formidable alliance to pit against the West.

Your certainly not a Conspiracy Theorist at all. Since the beginning of the Ukrainian invasion Russia has made alliances, with China, Iran and North Korea. This started out small with purchases of ammunition and other supplies needed for the conflict in Ukraine. However, those relationships have bloomed just they held summit, and if I had to guess it be that they are forming an alliance for support. Recently both Russia and China have held Naval Exercises, that would seem to suggest that Russia will support China in a war for Taiwan, which is a very bad thing.

Yes they do have a very large portion of vital resources which could be used to support themselves without any outside support in an extended conflict.

8 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Iran can provide a spark to start a brushfire war in any number of places at the drop of a hat.   And as crazy as it sounds, I think Iranian leaders might be willing to sacrifice some of their civilians and a city or two to become global martyrs and sway opinion against the US.   If the US falls into this trap then US and Iran will become locked in a losing combat like Israel and Hamas. I think the admin. is smart right now to avoid that, but if MAGA was in control they would blunder right in. We would be sucked into a conflict.

I totally agree with you, if Trump was currently in the White House, first of all he would have prevented NATO from supporting the Ukraine during Russia's invasion. His next move would be to not only support Israel, but it's very possible the United States would also have ground troops in Israel ready to move if necessary.

All the while he would be stirring the pot with Iran, and he would support any move by Israel to attack Iran. One thing is for certain, with him in the dumb ass, in charge he would need to be watched very closely. Let's think about this, Pandora's Box (use of Nuclear Weapons) has been closed since 1945 as far as being used against an enemy is concerned.

Once that box is opened again, I doubt the lid will ever close and either Tactical or ICBM's would be used on a regular basis. Now this is only my opinion, and hopefully I am completely wrong but with Trumps big mouth and threats of nuclear attack I believe he would use a Nuclear Weapon before any other leader of the global community would even consider it, and that makes dangerous!!!!!

8 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

I think Iran relied too heavily on Russia.  Until the invasion of Ukraine, Russia was assumed to have the second most powerful army in the world. Russia's ace in the hole is not its army, it is is its propaganda arm.  I think their goal is to divide and diminish the United States.       I think Putin is betting heavily on Trump. and the Republicans. He has already convinced the  MAGA cult to back Russia and cut funds to Ukraine. Trump is using Putin as a character reference at his rallies.  You know it could work.  That is a scary thought.

Yea that is something to be very concerned about, however there is little that can be done until he slips up and shows his hand. Outside of that no one can prove anything and until that happens it does no good to be concerned about it, let's face it, the world is going to hell in a hand basket as say and all we can do is watch. 

8 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Look at our local MAGA people, eager to wipe out the Palestinians and take on Iran. The bait could be taken, the US committed. Russia and China do not even have to engage militarily. Global opinion will shift toward them followed by trade and power.

Yes, I certainly agree with you I can see also, but again there is nothing we can do about. This bothers very much but I refuse to lose any sleep over.

8 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Iran is the red cape, China and Russia are the swords and the US could be the bull charging for the cape and receiving the death blow.  That is why MAGA frightens me,  they have about as much global awareness as that bull

Yes MAGA Trumps base are Middle Class and below Americans who are enticed very easily because he offers them a better life and an economic boom. But anyone who has watched how Trump operates over the last 6 years should be aware that Trump only cares about Trump. Every single person who worked closely with Trump has gone to jail, is indicted, or has lost all credibility. With Said how can any educated American follow such a man, so when you consider that where does that leave MAGA.

In my opinion they should prepare for worst, because if they get him elected, they no longer have any value to him. I feel sorry for them because one day they will wake up and realize their mistake and will be far too. So, Tate we can only prepare for the worst and hope for the best there are no other options, oh there is one keep your gun clean and powder dry!!!!!!

Peace my Brother I how this was helpful!!!!

[Ogbin]

On 12/22/2023 at 11:01 AM, Tatetopa said:

 

I agree that Hamas is a terrorist organization and must be neutralized, but Israel's strategy is throwing gas on the fire. 

 What exactly are they supposed to do? Not many options left. It’s certainly not Israel’s fault for Hamas using human shields. If they do anything else other than destroy them then all continues just as before.. Israel is tired of looking like the fool. They want to live peacefully, and who can blame them? They are tired of all the Mickey Mouse BS. Everybody yelling for a ceasefire are hypocrites and they know it! Who isn’t going to defend themselves against such evil?  God bless Israel 

 

Wasn’t it the Palestinians who voted for Hamas to be their government? Hmmmm

Edited December 24, 2023 by Ogbin

[Tatetopa]

8 hours ago, Ogbin said:

 What exactly are they supposed to do? Not many options left. It’s certainly not Israel’s fault for Hamas using human shields. If they do anything else other than destroy them then all continues just as before.. Israel is tired of looking like the fool. They want to live peacefully, and who can blame them? They are tired of all the Mickey Mouse BS. Everybody yelling for a ceasefire are hypocrites and they know it! Who isn’t going to defend themselves against such evil?  God bless Israel 

 

Wasn’t it the Palestinians who voted for Hamas to be their government? Hmmmm

They are supposed to follow the rules of war, not attack civilians directly and try to minimize collateral damage. That is not to be good guys, but to avoid further disastrous consequences.  It is predictable.

No, it is not Israel's fault, and Hamas remains a terrorist organization.  Sure, God bless Israel.  Add to that God give them wisdom.

However, @Ogbin we are not talking about good and evil, we are talking about cause and effects that has been observed time and time again.  We are talking about the way it is, not how you and I think it should be, 

There is a larger , broader, longer term conflict going on beyond tanks and soldiers in Gaza. Hamas is manipulating the Palestinians into shields and sacrificing  them for public opinion and propaganda value.

Look around my friend.  For the first week, all the world's sympathy was directed at Israel after the horrific attack.  After the invasion of Gaza and the mounting death of civilian women and children, that sympathy began to flow toward the Palestinians.

Hamas gains sympathizers.  Some of those turn into  followers.  Some of those turn into fighters.  It is a recruitment tool.  Like ISIS and Al Qaeda before them, Hamas gains a powerful recruitment tool on the Internet for resources and converts.  Many of those converts are not even be Palestinians.

Hamas cannot win on the battlefield, but they are winning the propaganda war.  If Israel follows the course you desire they will blunder into a quagmire that will last generations.  There will be no peace for Israel.  They cannot win through conflict, even if they are stronger than all of their foes.

Observe the antisemitism rising all over the world. It is not just the population of Israel at risk, but Jews all over the world are exposed to more  harassment and physical danger.   This will not be reversed while Israel follows its current course. 

So, maybe those of us who want a lasting and just peace for Israel are advising caution and some new strategy to end the predictable cycle of violence.

 

[Grim Reaper 6]

1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

They are supposed to follow the rules of war, not attack civilians directly and try to minimize collateral damage. That is not to be good guys, but to avoid further disastrous consequences.  It is predictable.

No, it is not Israel's fault, and Hamas remains a terrorist organization.  Sure, God bless Israel.  Add to that God give them wisdom.

However, @Ogbin we are not talking about good and evil, we are talking about cause and effects that has been observed time and time again.  We are talking about the way it is, not how you and I think it should be, 

There is a larger , broader, longer term conflict going on beyond tanks and soldiers in Gaza. Hamas is manipulating the Palestinians into shields and sacrificing  them for public opinion and propaganda value.

Look around my friend.  For the first week, all the world's sympathy was directed at Israel after the horrific attack.  After the invasion of Gaza and the mounting death of civilian women and children, that sympathy began to flow toward the Palestinians.

Hamas gains sympathizers.  Some of those turn into  followers.  Some of those turn into fighters.  It is a recruitment tool.  Like ISIS and Al Qaeda before them, Hamas gains a powerful recruitment tool on the Internet for resources and converts.  Many of those converts are not even be Palestinians.

Hamas cannot win on the battlefield, but they are winning the propaganda war.  If Israel follows the course you desire they will blunder into a quagmire that will last generations.  There will be no peace for Israel.  They cannot win through conflict, even if they are stronger than all of their foes.

Observe the antisemitism rising all over the world. It is not just the population of Israel at risk, but Jews all over the world are exposed to more  harassment and physical danger.   This will not be reversed while Israel follows its current course. 

So, maybe those of us who want a lasting and just peace for Israel are advising caution and some new strategy to end the predictable cycle of violence.

 

Thanks very much, I was going to answer his question, but you have done it much better than I could have!!

[Ogbin]

4 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

They are supposed to follow the rules of war, not attack civilians directly and try to minimize collateral damage.

 They are working diligently to minimize civilian deaths. In fact they are more careful than most other country’s would be. Let’s be real, if Israel ceases this war Hamas will continue with its attacks as always.. oh ya, don’t forget about Hamas’s recent threats of an even bigger attack if and when given the opportunity.

4 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

However, @Ogbin we are not talking about good and evil, we are talking about cause and effects that has been observed time and time again.  We are talking about the way it is, not how you and I think it should be, 

 Actually we are talking about good and evil. Hamas is evil and will not stop until every Israelite as been eradicated from Israel. So time and time again we witness Hamas starting conflicts and Israel defending itself. That’s just the way it is.

4 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

There is a larger , broader, longer term conflict going on beyond tanks and soldiers in Gaza. Hamas is manipulating the Palestinians into shields and sacrificing  them for public opinion and propaganda value

 Probably more like Hamas is forcing them to be human shields. And yes, propaganda is a powerful weapon. They’ve known for decades now that the world is becoming more and more antisemetic. And you’re right, it’s working. However, Israel understands that their very survival as people is at stake.. remember WW2? They know exactly what’s going and the situation they’re in, more than any armchair quarterback would. They don’t protect themselves, they die.

4 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Hamas cannot win on the battlefield, but they are winning the propaganda war.  If Israel follows the course you desire they will blunder into a quagmire that will last generations.  There will be no peace for Israel.  They cannot win through conflict, even if they are stronger than all of their foes.

 They’re just trying to survive the moment.. you know, the hear and now. You’re right, there will be no peace for Israel, it’s enemies will see to that. They’ve clearly made that a fact and a reality. That being said, sounds like forced conflict and no option other than defending themselves.  
 

4 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Observe the antisemitism rising all over the world. It is not just the population of Israel at risk, but Jews all over the world are exposed to more  harassment and physical danger.   This will not be reversed while Israel follows its current course. 

 Hate towards them will never be reversed, that’s how they’re in situation. They were in their first war within 24 hours of stepping off the planes in 1948. Killing off all Jews and destroying Israel has pretty much been the plan all along. They seem awfully serious about this goal of their’s, yep no mistake about it.

4 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

So, maybe those of us who want a lasting and just peace for Israel are advising caution and some new strategy to end the predictable cycle of violence.

Tell me, how does Israel get Hamas to stop brutality attacking them, get every nation that is plotting their destruction to stop and leave them alone. I don’t think saying please will work. 
 

Here’s the choice we all have, either support Israel and stand against the evils of terrorism, or don’t. It’s not a tough decision. The world just doesn’t really want to do anything about the growing hate spreading around the globe. It seems like giving opinions is easier than coming together and fighting against what is in all reality, A Common Enemy.  They will turn on the rest of the world eventually. They don’t want peace, they want submission. A fact that they clearly stated and shown. It’s in their Koran. They are trying to fulfill prophecy. They are doing exactly what their book says to do. They have, and will continue to die for their cause. I’m not really sure why it’s a concept for the world to grasp, but it is. 

Edited December 24, 2023 by Ogbin

[Tatetopa]

5 hours ago, Ogbin said:

 They are working diligently to minimize civilian deaths. In fact they are more careful than most other country’s would be. Let’s be real, if Israel ceases this war Hamas will continue with its attacks as always.. oh ya, don’t forget about Hamas’s recent threats of an even bigger attack if and when given the opportunity.

You are still talking about how we think it should be, and not how it is.  

[Grim Reaper 6]

5 hours ago, Ogbin said:

 They are working diligently to minimize civilian deaths. In fact they are more careful than most other country’s would be.

This not accurate my friend, there are rules that must be followed, and no country is exempt from these Rules. It is illegal to Bomb Hospitals, Medical Centers, Religious buildings both Christain and Muslim, Schools, and especially refugee Camps. There is nothing that makes it ok to attack with bombs, rockets or artillery any of the locations listed above according to both the Geneva Convention and the ICC - International Criminal Court. If there is enemy activity at any of those locations ground troops must be used to minimize Civilian Casualties any other action is considered War Crimes / Crimes Against Humanity and sadly Israel has violated these laws. Which, prompted the senior prosecuter from the International Crime Court to take a team to Israel investigate these claims.

Both Israel and Hamas are being charged with War Crimes and Crimes Against humanity below is the investigation from which Indictments will soon come who exactly will be charged no information exists at this time.

Statement of ICC Prosecutor Karim A. A. Khan KC from Ramallah on the situation in the State of Palestine and Israel:Statement of ICC Prosecutor Karim A. A. Khan KC from Ramallah on the situation in the State of Palestine and Israel | International Criminal Court (icc-cpi.int)

The following information can be found in the statement Above:

"The statement is dated December 6, 2023"

I have made it crystal clear. The law is not some cosmetic adornment that can be disregarded. It's a fundamental requirement that must be complied with. Schools, hospitals, churches and mosques, dwelling houses are protected and must not be bombed. I've made it clear what the law is in terms of the principles of distinction, precaution, and proportionality.

 And leaving aside all of those issues, I've made it also abundantly clear that the law can't be interpreted in a way that it denudes it from meaning, that hollows it out, that fails to achieve what the Geneva Conventions were meant to do. Which is to protect the most vulnerable of society, babies and children, the old and the infirm, civilian men and women. This is an insistence that is required by parties to the conflict and by Israel. I made that very clear here.

I emphasised again that humanitarian assistance must be allowed in at pace, at scale in Gaza. It is not acceptable. There's no justification for doctors to perform operations without light, for children to be operated upon without anaesthetics. Imagine the pain of operations on children, on anybody, on any of us, without anaesthetics. And also I emphasised that Hamas must not divert any aid that's given. But I was crystal clear that this is the time to comply with the law. It's already late. But if Israel doesn't comply now, they shouldn't complain later.

Israel has a fundamental responsibility as an occupying power, I emphasised, to investigate those crimes, to prosecute those crimes, to prevent their reoccurrence, but to ensure justice. And my Office is investigating that to ensure that those rights are also vindicated. 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Ogbin said:

 

Let’s be real, if Israel ceases this war Hamas will continue with its attacks as always.. oh ya, don’t forget about Hamas’s recent threats of an even bigger attack if and when given the opportunity.

 Actually we are talking about good and evil. Hamas is evil and will not stop until every Israelite as been eradicated from Israel. So time and time again we witness Hamas starting conflicts and Israel defending itself. That’s just the way it is.

 Probably more like Hamas is forcing them to be human shields. And yes, propaganda is a powerful weapon. They’ve known for decades now that the world is becoming more and more antisemetic. And you’re right, it’s working. However, Israel understands that their very survival as people is at stake.. remember WW2? They know exactly what’s going and the situation they’re in, more than any armchair quarterback would. They don’t protect themselves, they die.

 They’re just trying to survive the moment.. you know, the hear and now. You’re right, there will be no peace for Israel, it’s enemies will see to that. They’ve clearly made that a fact and a reality. That being said, sounds like forced conflict and no option other than defending themselves.  
 

 Hate towards them will never be reversed, that’s how they’re in situation. They were in their first war within 24 hours of stepping off the planes in 1948. Killing off all Jews and destroying Israel has pretty much been the plan all along. They seem awfully serious about this goal of their’s, yep no mistake about it.

Tell me, how does Israel get Hamas to stop brutality attacking them, get every nation that is plotting their destruction to stop and leave them alone. I don’t think saying please will work. 
 

Here’s the choice we all have, either support Israel and stand against the evils of terrorism, or don’t. It’s not a tough decision. The world just doesn’t really want to do anything about the growing hate spreading around the globe. It seems like giving opinions is easier than coming together and fighting against what is in all reality, A Common Enemy.  They will turn on the rest of the world eventually. They don’t want peace, they want submission. A fact that they clearly stated and shown. It’s in their Koran. They are trying to fulfill prophecy. They are doing exactly what their book says to do. They have, and will continue to die for their cause. I’m not really sure why it’s a concept for the world to grasp, but it is. 

 

[+and-then]

On 12/22/2023 at 10:55 PM, Grim Reaper 6 said:

this behavior and claim all Palestinians as terrorists,

No one has said that all Palestinians are terrorists.  The reason all of those entities have been bombed is they are being used intentionally by Hamas to shield their fighters from the IDF.  In short, if Israel decided never to launch an attack where civilians might be killed, they'd never have a chance to survive at all.  They've proven their claims that Hamas uses Palestinians as shields.  Every Palestinian death in any of those locations are the responsibility of Hamas and no one else.

[Grim Reaper 6]

Just now, and-then said:

No one has said that all Palestinians are terrorists.  The reason all of those entities have been bombed is they are being used intentionally by Hamas to shield their fighters from the IDF.  In short, if Israel decided never to launch an attack where civilians might be killed, they'd never have a chance to survive at all.  They've proven their claims that Hamas uses Palestinians as shields.  Every Palestinian death in any of those locations are the responsibility of Hamas and no one else.

That doesn't matter its still violation of both International Law and the Geneva Convention. Which clearly states that in situation where there is a high volume of civilians Bombing, Artillery and Rockets are off limits. Ground troops must be used to minimize civilian casualties. Israel knows this very well because they are a signatory to the updated version of international law, and the Geneva Convention which was ratified in 2007. Hamas is also violating International Law and the Geneva Convention they have also been investigated just like Israel. There is no loophole that allows the laws of war to be only guideline. 

The bolded comments are not accurate, it doesn't matter how much you want it to be true it's still a false assumption.

[Kittens Are Jerks]

On 12/23/2023 at 4:44 PM, Grim Reaper 6 said:

Do you have a source that verifies your comments above?

I am always willing to learn something new.

Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War

Article 19

The protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy. Protection may, however, cease only after due warning has been given, naming, in all appropriate cases, a reasonable time limit, and after such warning has remained unheeded.

The fact that sick or wounded members of the armed forces are nursed in these hospitals, or the presence of small arms and ammunition taken from such combatants which have not yet been handed to the proper service, shall not be considered to be acts harmful to the enemy.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/geneva-convention-relative-protection-civilian-persons-time-war

[Abramelin]

"The Laws of War."

What a joke.

[Kittens Are Jerks]

8 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

This not accurate my friend, there are rules that must be followed, and no country is exempt from these Rules. It is illegal to Bomb Hospitals, Medical Centers, Religious buildings both Christain and Muslim, Schools, and especially refugee Camps. There is nothing that makes it ok to attack with bombs, rockets or artillery any of the locations listed above according to both the Geneva Convention and the ICC - International Criminal Court. If there is enemy activity at any of those locations ground troops must be used to minimize Civilian Casualties any other action is considered War Crimes / Crimes Against Humanity and sadly Israel has violated these laws. Which, prompted the senior prosecuter from the International Crime Court to take a team to Israel investigate these claims.

You've repeatedly mentioned that ground troops must be used to attack hospitals and other civilian locations that have lost their protection status, but have not cited any specific international laws that say so. I'd like to see the specifics of those laws as written by the Geneva Convention and ICC and/or any relevant source links.

[+and-then]

On 12/22/2023 at 10:55 PM, Grim Reaper 6 said:

If terrorists were hiding in those locations that still does not excuse this behavior.

You have had two people cite to you the pertinent rule from the Geneva conventions.  A combatant cannot use those places - which normally ARE untouchable - to kill or to advance their war effort.  Hamas has been doing both for decades.  Israel not only has the right under these rules to strike such locations, they even gave more than enough time for them to be evacuated.  If your opinion does not change with that info, then so be it.  The IDF is only striking legitimate targets.  Even if the death tolls are close to accurate, the civilian to military ratio is FAR better in this conflict than in any our military conducted and much better than any other military action in urban environments.  

I'll say it again... if Israel followed your rules, the nation wouldn't last a year.  Israel is going NOWHERE else.  The world can save these Palestinians they say they care for so much by forcing Hamas into the open.  Stop supporting murderers.

[Kittens Are Jerks]

1 hour ago, and-then said:

Even if the death tolls are close to accurate, the civilian to military ratio is FAR better in this conflict than in any our military conducted and much better than any other military action in urban environments.  

What some members here don't seem to realise is that effects-based condemnations (condemning an attack as a war crime based only on the civilian harm inflicted by the attack) are legally invalid.

Proportionality is not defined by attack outcome,

What we instead have to examine is whether those launching the attack made a reasonable proportionality assessment.

The principle of proportionality (Article 51(5) (b) API) states that indiscriminate acts, such as an attack “which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated” are prohibited. What that means is that the attack is prohibited only if the attacker concludes the incidental or collateral consequences will be excessive to the anticipated concrete military advantage. As long as that risk is not assessed as excessive, the risk to civilians is considered proportional.

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/api-1977/article-51

This is often translated into the reasonable commander test:

Was the attack decision one that another reasonable commander, facing the same situation and with the same information available, would have also made? If so, the attack was lawful, even if the result turned out to contradict the expectation at the time it was launched.

https://jinsa.org/disproportionate-confusion-about-proportionality/

[+and-then]

2 hours ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

Proportionality is not defined by attack outcome,

Exactly, but this only applies to "not Israelis".  It is making this crowd manic because even DC can't bring the Jewish state to heel.  Israel has been pushed to their breaking point and the world is beginning to grasp that Israel isn't going to suicide itself for the sake of US or EU public opinion.  FINISH THE JOB, IDF.

[+and-then]

Netanyahu is making Israel's plan fully transparent:

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/382538

[Kittens Are Jerks]

Just now, and-then said:

Exactly, but this only applies to "not Israelis".  It is making this crowd manic because even DC can't bring the Jewish state to heel.  Israel has been pushed to their breaking point and the world is beginning to grasp that Israel isn't going to suicide itself for the sake of US or EU public opinion.  FINISH THE JOB, IDF.

The Israelis are caught between a rock and a hard place. No matter what efforts they take to mitigate civilian casualties, they are dealing with an enemy that deliberately increases the risk to civilians by hiding among them and using them as human shields. Hamas knows that it stands to gain from the death of Palestinians. That's why it uses civilian buildings to house combatants and weapons, and why it fires rockets from Gaza's densely populated areas. Hamas knows that once Israel strikes civilian areas, it will result in accusations of war crimes and demands for restraint.

All one has to do is look at the number of useful idiots Hamas has gained globally to see that their strategy is working.

But the fact of the matter is, the central cause of Gaza’s misery is Hamas. It alone is responsible for the suffering they knowingly invited against the Palestinians. Hamas knew full well the reaction its massacre of innocent Israelis would provoke. It knew and didn't care.

[Grim Reaper 6]

6 hours ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War

Article 19

The protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy. Protection may, however, cease only after due warning has been given, naming, in all appropriate cases, a reasonable time limit, and after such warning has remained unheeded.

The fact that sick or wounded members of the armed forces are nursed in these hospitals, or the presence of small arms and ammunition taken from such combatants which have not yet been handed to the proper service, shall not be considered to be acts harmful to the enemy.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/geneva-convention-relative-protection-civilian-persons-time-war

Merry Christmas Kittens, I am aware of article 19 but when Israel did use ground troops and clear the main hospital in GAZA all they found was small arms and cast-off military equipment so the second paragraph of article 19 clearly states that what was found is not cause to bomb a hospital. In addition, they had already bombed the Hospital before ground forces cleared it. So, unless you have a source that shows that Hamas was actually fighting throughout the Hospital or firing upon friendly forces (Israel) from the Hospital Paragraph one doesn't apply. 

Do you have a source that shows the Hamas was attacking enemy forces of firing rockets from Hospital grounds bombing the Hospital like Israel did is still against the Geneva Convention.

I have been following this conflict from the beginning just like I am sure you have, and I seen no report from the News Media.

4 hours ago, and-then said:

You have had two people cite to you the pertinent rule from the Geneva conventions.  A combatant cannot use those places - which normally ARE untouchable - to kill or to advance their war effort.  Hamas has been doing both for decades.  Israel not only has the right under these rules to strike such locations, they even gave more than enough time for them to be evacuated.  If your opinion does not change with that info, then so be it.  The IDF is only striking legitimate targets.  Even if the death tolls are close to accurate, the civilian to military ratio is FAR better in this conflict than in any our military conducted and much better than any other military action in urban environments.  

I'll say it again... if Israel followed your rules, the nation wouldn't last a year.  Israel is going NOWHERE else.  The world can save these Palestinians they say they care for so much by forcing Hamas into the open.  Stop supporting murderers.

 

[Kittens Are Jerks]

19 minutes ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

Merry Christmas Kittens, I am aware of article 19 but when Israel did use ground troops and clear the main hospital in GAZA all they found was small arms and cast-off military equipment so the second paragraph of article 19 clearly states that what was found is not cause to bomb a hospital. In addition, they had already bombed the Hospital before ground forces cleared it. So, unless you have a source that shows that Hamas was actually fighting throughout the Hospital or firing upon friendly forces (Israel) from the Hospital Paragraph one doesn't apply. 

Hamas does not have to be fighting throughout a hospital, nor does it have to be firing against Israel from there. It is sufficient that a hospital is used to store ammunition or house combatants. As for what was ultimately found by the Israelis, I will repeat, the test of proportionality is this:

Was the attack decision one that another reasonable commander, facing the same situation and with the same information available, would have also made? If so, the attack was lawful, even if the result turned out to contradict the expectation at the time it was launched.

Any luck finding a source stating that a hospital must be attacked by ground forces only?

I'm Jewish by the way and don't celebrate Christmas. Thank you just the same. Hope your Christmas was a good one.

[Grim Reaper 6]

1 hour ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

Hamas does not have to be fighting throughout a hospital, nor does it have to be firing against Israel from there. It is sufficient that a hospital is used to store ammunition or house combatants. As for what was ultimately found by the Israelis, I will repeat, the test of proportionality is this:

It was never proven that Hamas was STORING ammunition in that Hospital or housing combatants. I am very familar with the Geneva Convention and the International Rule of war. Because I was a senior military leader and I worked in Corp's HQs, Division HQs and Brigade HQs throughout my military career. I worked in the G-3 Plans and Operations sections, this is where the actual war plans are written along with the ROE - Rule of Engagement for each military operation. When planning we had to incorporate the Geneva Convention and the International Laws of War into our War Plans.

1 hour ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

Was the attack decision one that another reasonable commander, facing the same situation and with the same information available, would have also made?

No, because it violated the Geneva Convention, any commander worth his rank would have not bombed a Hospital. Hospitals are consider soft protected targets and whenever planning is done for a sector within a combat zone ground forces are always used to gain control of facilities protected by the Geneva Convention. Throughout my Military career I have only see a single situation where bombing Ambulances and a Hospital were authorized, this occurred during Operation Desert Storm.

For whatever reason the Iraqis mounted 12.7mm Antiaircraft guns on their Ambulances which were clearly marked with the crescent moon. When they would see an allied aircraft, they would fire upon our personal and aircraft while transporting the wounded. This changed the ROE - Rules of Engagement completely which allowed us two attack any ambulance firing on Allied soldiers. During the first day of the ground invasion allied soldiers encounter a fully marked Hospital that was also firing Antiaircraft Guns, RPGs, and small arms weapons at our soldiers. Again, this violated the safety protection of a hospital according to the Geneva Convention. So, an air strike was called in on that position and the Hospital was fully destroyed everyone was killed. I went to the location after the cease fire and it was horrible, and to this day I have no idea why ambulances and a field Hospital would attack passing soldiers and aircraft it just made no sense because they were protected until they started waging war, very sad.

But to my knowledge this has not occurred in GAZA!

1 hour ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

 

If so, the attack was lawful, even if the result turned out to contradict the expectation at the time it was launched. Any luck finding a source stating that a hospital must be attacked by ground forces only?

I answered above 

1 hour ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

I'm Jewish by the way and don't celebrate Christmas. Thank you just the same. Hope your Christmas was a good one.

I see so you already celebrated Honika from the 7th-15th, well then Happy Belated Honika and please have a fantastic new year. One of my friends when I was growing up was Jewish and I celebrated Honkia with his family. I don't know what they call it, but everyone stood around a table and the father poured a glass of wine and placed on the table and then said a prayer and his mother opened the back door. I will never forget what happened next, ever so slowly the wine in the glass seemed to go down. I will never forget that ceremony because of that, was it an optical illusion of did it really happen, when I think about this, I choose to believe it really did happen and the spirit accepted the offering!!!!!!!!

Peace

Edited December 25, 2023 by Grim Reaper 6

[Kittens Are Jerks]

50 minutes ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

I see so you already celebrated Honika from the 7th-15th, well then Happy Belated Honika and please have a fantastic new year. One of my friends when I was growing up was Jewish and I celebrated Honkia with his family. I don't know what they call it, but everyone stood around a table and the father poured a glass of wine and placed on the table and then said a prayer and his mother opened the back door. I will never forget what happened next, ever so slowly the wine in the glass seemed to go down. I will never forget that ceremony because of that, was it an optical illusion of did it really happen, when I think about this, I choose to believe it really did happen and the spirit accepted the offering!!!!!!!!

It's spelled Hanukkah or Chanukah. The ritual you mentioned takes place on Passover not Hanukkah. An extra glass of wine is set on the table and the door opened for the prophet Elijah to enter. He seems a bit weird from the various descriptions of him. I certainly wouldn't leave my door open.