Has Israel weakened Hamas enough to win the war on Gaza?

[Grim Reaper 6]

Almost 23,000 people – the vast majority Palestinian – have been killed since the unprecedented Hamas attacks in southern Israel on October 7, which launched the Israeli assault on Gaza. As the end of 2023 approaches, the Israeli offensive is showing no signs of any let-up and the death toll is certain to rise on both sides as fighting continues. Israel has stated from the outset that its objective is to eliminate Hamas’s military and governing capabilities. To this end, it has continued the aerial bombardment and ground invasion of the Gaza Strip almost without pause, since October 7. While Israel admits it has failed in this mission so far, it claims it is just a question of time before it achieves this goal. But does the situation on the ground support that claim?

Analysis: Has Israel weakened Hamas enough to win the war on Gaza? (msn.com)

[Horta]

3 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

Almost 23,000 people – the vast majority Palestinian – have been killed since the unprecedented Hamas attacks in southern Israel on October 7, which launched the Israeli assault on Gaza. As the end of 2023 approaches, the Israeli offensive is showing no signs of any let-up and the death toll is certain to rise on both sides as fighting continues. Israel has stated from the outset that its objective is to eliminate Hamas’s military and governing capabilities. To this end, it has continued the aerial bombardment and ground invasion of the Gaza Strip almost without pause, since October 7. While Israel admits it has failed in this mission so far, it claims it is just a question of time before it achieves this goal. But does the situation on the ground support that claim?

Analysis: Has Israel weakened Hamas enough to win the war on Gaza? (msn.com)

Firstly, this isn't a war. It's the cruel and wanton slaughter of mostly innocent women, children and old people by the US taxpayer and Israeli forces. Though It would be wrong to hold US people themselves in any way complicit. To do that, you would have to be given to the notion that their regime actually considers the will of its people.

This is more like the reprisals for the Warsaw ghetto uprising than a military conflict. This is the part where 75 years of brutal colonial occupation goes beyond ethnic cleansing and toward open genocide. As the South African govt rightly noted in its submission to the ICJ.

Whether they really thought they could wipe out Palestinian resistance (Hamas) who knows, but I doubt its working. It wouldn't matter anyway, a new group will simply form and take its place.

[Alchopwn]

Israel should buckle down and get rid of all of them so they don't have to do it all again in a decade.

[quiXilver]

Most likely Israel has created another two generations of folks looking to avenge/revenge their loved ones who were killed who had nothing to do with Hamas.

Hamas has been hiding, cloaked within the Palestinian community, feeding off of them like a parasitic tick, using the generational hate derived from wanton occupation and violence to their own ends.  Hamas does not want a free Palestine.   Hamas wants an endless supply of hateful young people to manipulate into more violence.  They are lost in spirit and mind, as are many of the Israelis mired in this bog of misery and hate.

It takes three generations of no violence to transcend the hate fuel of war.  Otherwise, everyone has a Sister, Mother/Father, Grandma etc to revenge and the cycle continues as revenge fosters more hate and fuels the cycle.

 

The unfortunate truth I fear, is that this cycle will only end when one side is nigh on wiped out and can no longer respond in kind.  (think American Indigenous cultures vs the American Military of Manifest Destiny)

This situation is an example of the worst of human nature on display, once again.  It is poison and the lowest common denominator of human energy.

Edited December 31, 2023 by quiXilver

[Tatetopa]

5 hours ago, quiXilver said:

Most likely Israel has created another two generations of folks looking to avenge/revenge their loved ones who were killed who had nothing to do with Hamas.

Sadly true, but the animosity spreads beyond direct relatives of those lost to many sympathizers spread across the world. Of course a lot of people don't care about that and politics are driven by extremes.  

The US Military is not driven that way.  First they are focused on long term survival of the US and our ideals in a changing world. They are thinking in terms of generations not administrations.

War for survival demands cold logic and appropriate action.   Anger and fear are bad counsellors.

[+Hammerclaw]

6 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Israel should buckle down and get rid of all of them so they don't have to do it all again in a decade.

That's precisely what they're doing. The Gazan military is immobilized, cowering in the dirt. They're being rooted out, one tunnel at a time. It's not question of if the Israelis will win, only when. 

[Grim Reaper 6]

8 hours ago, Horta said:

Firstly, this isn't a war. It's the cruel and wanton slaughter of mostly innocent women, children and old people by the US taxpayer and Israeli forces. Though It would be wrong to hold US people themselves in any way complicit. To do that, you would have to be given to the notion that their regime actually considers the will of its people.

I agree with you the wanton slaughter of innocent people need to stop, it's a violation of the Geneva Convention and the International laws of war. But, while I don't hold America responsible for this they are going to get pulled into it for suppling weapons to Israel.

8 hours ago, Horta said:

This is more like the reprisals for the Warsaw ghetto uprising than a military conflict. This is the part where 75 years of brutal colonial occupation goes beyond ethnic cleansing and toward open genocide. As the South African govt rightly noted in its submission to the ICJ.

I agree that is also the way I see it.

8 hours ago, Horta said:

Whether they really thought they could wipe out Palestinian resistance (Hamas) who knows, but I doubt its working. It wouldn't matter anyway, a new group will simply form and take its place.

Your certainly right, another group would just replace Hamas!!!!

[Grim Reaper 6]

7 hours ago, quiXilver said:

Most likely Israel has created another two generations of folks looking to avenge/revenge their loved ones who were killed who had nothing to do with Hamas.

This absolutely true there will be multiple generations of folks looking for revenge, this is how terrorist groups get started in the first place, even if Hamas is completely destroyed another group will rise up and replace them.

7 hours ago, quiXilver said:

Hamas has been hiding, cloaked within the Palestinian community, feeding off of them like a parasitic tick, using the generational hate derived from wanton occupation and violence to their own ends.  Hamas does not want a free Palestine.   Hamas wants an endless supply of hateful young people to manipulate into more violence.  They are lost in spirit and mind, as are many of the Israelis mired in this bog of misery and hate.

I totally agree, that is what all terrorist organizations do, I mean their survival depends upon it!

7 hours ago, quiXilver said:

It takes three generations of no violence to transcend the hate fuel of war.  Otherwise, everyone has a Sister, Mother/Father, Grandma etc to revenge and the cycle continues as revenge fosters more hate and fuels the cycle.

I think you right my friend at a minimum!!

7 hours ago, quiXilver said:

 

The unfortunate truth I fear, is that this cycle will only end when one side is nigh on wiped out and can no longer respond in kind.  (think American Indigenous cultures vs the American Military of Manifest Destiny)

This situation is an example of the worst of human nature on display, once again.  It is poison and the lowest common denominator of human energy.

I certainly agree, I have seen the terrible things that people will do too their fellow human beings. It is a poison of the mind, and sadly it is very easily spread, through vengeance, hatred, and all other negative aspects of the mind!!!

Happy News my friend, hope this year is the best New Year you and yours have ever had!!

[Unusual Tournament]

1 hour ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

I agree with you the wanton slaughter of innocent people need to stop, it's a violation of the Geneva Convention and the International laws of war. But, while I don't hold America responsible for this they are going to get pulled into it for suppling weapons to Israel.

I agree that is also the way I see it.

Your certainly right, another group would just replace Hamas!!!!

I agree also. The Israeli response is not balanced. 
 

But let’s be honest and judge Hamas in the same way. All they have to do is disarm and hand over the organisers of 10/7 and the retaliatory strikes against the Palestinians stops.

 

[Unusual Tournament]

9 hours ago, Horta said:

Firstly, this isn't a war. It's the cruel and wanton slaughter of mostly innocent women, children and old people by the US taxpayer and Israeli forces. Though It would be wrong to hold US people themselves in any way complicit. To do that, you would have to be given to the notion that their regime actually considers the will of its people.

This is more like the reprisals for the Warsaw ghetto uprising than a military conflict. This is the part where 75 years of brutal colonial occupation goes beyond ethnic cleansing and toward open genocide. As the South African govt rightly noted in its submission to the ICJ.

Whether they really thought they could wipe out Palestinian resistance (Hamas) who knows, but I doubt its working. It wouldn't matter anyway, a new group will simply form and take its place.

You haven’t even mentioned the 1400 October 7th victims that started this. 

[Alchopwn]

11 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

That's precisely what they're doing. The Gazan military is immobilized, cowering in the dirt. They're being rooted out, one tunnel at a time. It's not question of if the Israelis will win, only when. 

Yeah, great isn't it.  That'll teach them to dance in the streets in praise of rapists and baby decapitators.  Play orc games, win an orc's fate.

[+and-then]

23 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

But does the situation on the ground support that claim?

I'm obviously biased toward Israel but by any metric, I'd have to say Israel IS prevailing in this horrific struggle.  So far they have managed to ignore media and governmental pressures to stop their assault on their existential enemies in Gaza.  In time they will so degrade Hamas that its leaders sue for peace or are systematically rooted out of their holes.  Hamas has been using aid from all over the world for 16 years to build up its infrastructure and weapons.  That won't be removed in a few months but it WILL be removed so long as Israel refuses to be stopped by anyone, including the current administration in DC.

The next phase of neutralizing Hamas will be the reoccupation of the Strip with security forces that will continually find and destroy hidden infrastructure.  Israel cannot avoid a repeat of this situation unless they become as brutal as Hamas by quickly ending the lives of any group that kills their soldiers in Gaza.  The same goes for the Palestinian murderers in Judea and Samaria.  Peace can come as soon as Gazans truly want it. Until that day, Gazans will live - and die - as a result of their own choices.

[+and-then]

18 hours ago, Horta said:

It wouldn't matter anyway, a new group will simply form and take its place.

I disagree and most Israelis say the same.  No, Palestinians cannot be forced to change their minds about the ideology of endless hate toward Jews, but they can certainly be rendered mostly impotent to kill on the scale they did on 10/7.  The IDF will have to take security control of Gaza and no UN body or any other security force can be allowed to be in control of Gaza because they'll eventually build back to where they were on 10/6.  Israelis are swinging hard Right after this massacre and they are not going to allow the world to shout them down or shame them into allowing the Palestinians to ever again become such a threat to the children and other innocents in Israel.

The Hamas demons proved themselves to be a relentless, implacable force for removing all Jews from the land, and Israelis of all parties will never be able to unsee that in this generation.  The only way Hamas survives is if Israel allows themselves to be restrained by a so-called ally.

[+and-then]

9 hours ago, Unusual Tournament said:

You haven’t even mentioned the 1400 October 7th victims that started this. 

That's because they deserved what they got, didn't you know?  The only positive that is coming out of this horror show is that those who hate Israel have outed themselves quite effectively by showing that they don't believe these Israelis have a right to defend themselves because they are considered to be usurpers, thieves, and so forth that have no legitimate claim to any of the land, so they deserve whatever the Palestinians can do to them. 

The difference this time is that Hamas touched on a primal fear among the Jews and reminded them of the very real hate that drove the Holocaust and that this hate is alive and well in the Arab Muslim mind and heart.  One of the primary rules about hunting wild animals is that you never corner them so they have no way of escape. Doing that makes them fight to the death.

[Grim Reaper 6]

9 minutes ago, and-then said:

I'm obviously biased toward Israel but by any metric, I'd have to say Israel IS prevailing in this horrific struggle.  So far they have managed to ignore media and governmental pressures to stop their assault on their existential enemies in Gaza.  In time they will so degrade Hamas that its leaders sue for peace or are systematically rooted out of their holes.  Hamas has been using aid from all over the world for 16 years to build up its infrastructure and weapons.  That won't be removed in a few months but it WILL be removed so long as Israel refuses to be stopped by anyone, including the current administration in DC.

The next phase of neutralizing Hamas will be the reoccupation of the Strip with security forces that will continually find and destroy hidden infrastructure.  Israel cannot avoid a repeat of this situation unless they become as brutal as Hamas by quickly ending the lives of any group that kills their soldiers in Gaza.  The same goes for the Palestinian murderers in Judea and Samaria.  Peace can come as soon as Gazans truly want it. Until that day, Gazans will live - and die - as a result of their own choices.

This isn’t true the civilian population of Gaza has no choice in this situation and the more of them that are killed the bigger the vendetta will be. This will never end, even if Hamas is totally destroyed another and another terrorist organization will pop up. The only thing that will end this current situation is Genocide, Israel will have to kill every Palestinian that is alive, the question is are they willing to do that, because there will be repercussions from the global community.

Do you think they should just kill every Palestinian man, woman and child?

[+and-then]

10 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

Your certainly right, another group would just replace Hamas

A couple of points... first, the Palestinians are already systematically indoctrinating their children with an absolute hate of anything Jewish and they are taught by clerics, school teachers, and parents to kill Jews when and where they get the chance.  This begins in very early childhood.  Second, the idea that Israel striking back is somehow going to make this worse, isn't logical.  The hate is already there and isn't going to be appreciably enhanced due to a war that Hamas began on behalf of the Palestinians' desire for all the land. 

[+and-then]

4 minutes ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

Do you think they should just kill every Palestinian man, woman and child?

No, and I've never said anything about that being appropriate or even possible.  At best, all Israel can do is build a wall of separation between the two populations and instantly and aggressively strike back every single time any of their citizens are harmed or killed by these Palestinians. Do you believe that these same Palestinians would refrain from killing every Jew in Israel if they had the means to do so?  If you doubt that they would, can you point to any evidence that supports that belief?

[+and-then]

9 minutes ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

This isn’t true the civilian population of Gaza has no choice in this situation and the more of them that are killed the bigger the vendetta will be

I can't imagine a larger vendetta than the one that drove the slaughter on the morning of 10/7.  Face it, Palestinians have had 75 years worth of chances to make peace and to build a prosperous nation for their people.  They consistently chose the way of hatred, death, and pain.  They will NEVER uproot Israel and those who keep encouraging and supporting their goal of a Judenrein Palestine only add to their miseries and loss of hope.  No, Palestinians can hardly add to the energy of their hate for Israel but the difference is that after 10/7, the Jews have awakened to the fact that Palestinians are as energized about killing all the Jews as they have ever been and that there is no chance of peace with them.  THAT is the difference and why 10/7 so horribly has blown up in the face of Hamas and Iran.

The world WILL eventually form a coalition - mostly of Islamic nations - and that coalition will surround Israel and appear to be about to destroy the nation and scatter the remnant back across the globe.  Israel will have no allies and the world will be celebrating the imminent demise of the Jews.  Spoiler alert - when the dust and flames disappear, it will be the Jews that will be left on the land and none of their enemies will ever threaten them again.

[Unusual Tournament]

22 minutes ago, and-then said:

That's because they deserved what they got, didn't you know?  The only positive that is coming out of this horror show is that those who hate Israel have outed themselves quite effectively by showing that they don't believe these Israelis have a right to defend themselves because they are considered to be usurpers, thieves, and so forth that have no legitimate claim to any of the land, so they deserve whatever the Palestinians can do to them. 

The difference this time is that Hamas touched on a primal fear among the Jews and reminded them of the very real hate that drove the Holocaust and that this hate is alive and well in the Arab Muslim mind and heart.  One of the primary rules about hunting wild animals is that you never corner them so they have no way of escape. Doing that makes them fight to the death.

It’s the right to human fairness. The horrors this poor Israeli’s went through and some are still going through cannot and should never be sweep away and forgotten. I feel for every innocent hurting regardless of religion but this separation of human dignity is intolerable 

[Grim Reaper 6]

23 minutes ago, and-then said:

I can't imagine a larger vendetta than the one that drove the slaughter on the morning of 10/7.  Face it, Palestinians have had 75 years worth of chances to make peace and to build a prosperous nation for their people.  They consistently chose the way of hatred, death, and pain.  They will NEVER uproot Israel and those who keep encouraging and supporting their goal of a Judenrein Palestine only add to their miseries and loss of hope.  No, Palestinians can hardly add to the energy of their hate for Israel but the difference is that after 10/7, the Jews have awakened to the fact that Palestinians are as energized about killing all the Jews as they have ever been and that there is no chance of peace with them.  THAT is the difference and why 10/7 so horribly has blown up in the face of Hamas and Iran.

The world WILL eventually form a coalition - mostly of Islamic nations - and that coalition will surround Israel and appear to be about to destroy the nation and scatter the remnant back across the globe.  Israel will have no allies and the world will be celebrating the imminent demise of the Jews.  Spoiler alert - when the dust and flames disappear, it will be the Jews that will be left on the land and none of their enemies will ever threaten them again.

I agree the morning of 10/7 was horrible, unjustified and uncalled for. I don’t think Israel will surrcome to an Arab onslaught, I think they will get through it just fine. I think it’s pretty obvious to most that even-though it is not talked about that Israel has Nuclear ☢️ Weapons now I can not prove it but I believe it true. In worse case scenario they will use them and Iran will most likely be the first to go.

JIMHO

Edited January 1 by Grim Reaper 6

[+and-then]

13 minutes ago, Unusual Tournament said:

It’s the right to human fairness. The horrors this poor Israeli’s went through and some are still going through cannot and should never be sweep away and forgotten. I feel for every innocent hurting regardless of religion but this separation of human dignity is intolerable 

I agree that it is horrific and should not be happening.  The difference is that I reject the idea that Israel is engaged in gratuitous, indiscriminate destruction of Gaza and its civilians.  THAT is a political stance being pushed by a lying media.  Israel is hammering the places where their intel has found Hamas fighters and infrastructure.  Some believe Israel has no right to do this because civilians will die but the same who take that stance, ignore the much worse soldier to civilian death ratio of Western nations at war in the region.

[+and-then]

2 minutes ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

I agree the morning of 10/7 was horrible, unjustified and uncalled for. I don’t think Israel will surrcome to an Arab onslaught, I think through it just fine. I think it’s pretty obvious to most that even-though it is talked about that Israel has Nuclear ☢️ Weapons now I can prove it but I believe it true. In worse case scenario they use them and Iran will most likely be the first to go.

JIMHO

I cannot imagine Israel ever being the first to use such weapons UNLESS they believed they were about to be wiped out.  As for limited-yield nukes designed specifically for detonation well underground against extremely well-hardened nuclear sites, that would be the only way Israel alone could accomplish setting Iran back significantly.  The US has the heavy lifters required for serious bunker busters but our government isn't likely to help Israel do this.  I'm not even sure Trump would be willing to take that step but I know Biden wouldn't.  In the end, either Israel or Iran will come out on top and I doubt it will be Iran.

[Unusual Tournament]

11 minutes ago, and-then said:

I agree that it is horrific and should not be happening.  The difference is that I reject the idea that Israel is engaged in gratuitous, indiscriminate destruction of Gaza and its civilians.  THAT is a political stance being pushed by a lying media.  Israel is hammering the places where their intel has found Hamas fighters and infrastructure.  Some believe Israel has no right to do this because civilians will die but the same who take that stance, ignore the much worse soldier to civilian death ratio of Western nations at war in the region.

Israel has begun to redeploy five combat brigades from Gaza back into Israel. I guarantee if the roles were reversed Hamas would be flooding Israel with more of their monsters not removing them

[Alchopwn]

19 hours ago, Horta said:

Firstly, this isn't a war. It's the cruel and wanton slaughter of mostly innocent women, children and old people by the US taxpayer and Israeli forces.

So what about Hamas decapitating babies and raping Israeli women and cutting their breasts off while they were still alive?  How did the so-called "innocent women, children and old people" respond on October 7th 2023?  The scum were dancing in the streets.  Pardon me if I don't give a damn what happens to them.  Hamas uses them as human shields anyhow, which is all they're worth.  As a US Taxpayer, I think my money is being well spent in ridding the world of terrorists like that.

More importantly, remember that on Oct 7th, Hamas deliberately committed atrocities on Israeli civilians, while Israel is trying to avoid civilian deaths, but Hamas uses its citizens as human shields; its a matter of public record.  Hamas even brag about it.

19 hours ago, Horta said:

Though It would be wrong to hold US people themselves in any way complicit. To do that, you would have to be given to the notion that their regime actually considers the will of its people.

Complicit?  There's a reason nonation in the Middle East wants Palestinian refugees you know. Furthermore, the way the BBC in weeping and wringing its hands about the "poor Palestinians" when it was the British Foreign Office that egged the Grand Mufti of Palestine to kick off this conflict in the 1920s in the first place, and now toadies up to the Muslims instead of supporting the only real democracy in the Middle East.  What a pack of hypocrites the English be on this issue.

20 hours ago, Horta said:

This is more like the reprisals for the Warsaw ghetto uprising than a military conflict. 

Except that the Palestinians were trained by the SS after WW2, and now push anti-semitic rhetoric far worse than anything the Nazis ever went in for.  Remember too that Hamas was trained for this operation by forces from Wagner PMC, in order to distract the world from the war in Ukraine.  Hamas is lined up with Putin, Xi and the other totalitarian scum.  Are you?

20 hours ago, Horta said:

Whether they really thought they could wipe out Palestinian resistance (Hamas) who knows, but I doubt its working. It wouldn't matter anyway, a new group will simply form and take its place.

You forget that the so-called legitimate face of the Palestinians, i.e. the Palestinian Authority is alive and well in the West Bank.  There is no possibility of genocide while there are still 3 million Palestinains safely out of harms way.  If Hamas goes, there is every likelihood that the Palestinian Authority will be able to exert control in the region again, which will be a good thing, as while the PA are completely despicable filth with swimming pools of blood on their hands, they are still, somehow, a rung above Hamas.  All the Palestinians have worked very hard to insure that any solution to the conflict is impossible.  They started the fighting, they lost and lost and lost, and have kept losing.  No matter what atrocities they perform, a certain class of closet Stalinist leftist anti-semites still supports the so-called Palestinians.

[acidhead]

1 hour ago, Alchopwn said:

Pardon me if I don't give a damn what happens to them.  Hamas uses them as human shields anyhow, which is all they're worth.  As a US Taxpayer, I think my money is being well spent in ridding the world of terrorists like that.