Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -

America's founders believed civic education and historical knowledge would prevent tyranny


Grim Reaper 6

Recommended Posts

The majority of Americans today are anxious; they believe their democracy is under threat.

In fact, democracies deteriorate easily. As was feared since the times of Greek philosopher Plato, they may suddenly succumb to mob rule. The people will think they have an inalienable right to manifest their opinions – which means to state out loud whatever passes through their minds. They will act accordingly, often violently. They will make questionable decisions. Democracies may pave the way to tyrants. Self-serving leaders will appear. They will seek to rewrite national history by purging it of complexity and inconvenient truths. They will capitalize on the widespread frustration and profit from the chaotic situation. Should these leaders seize power, they will curtail the people’s participation in politics. They will discriminate based on race, sex or religion. They will create barriers to democratic participation by certain constituents, including moral tests or literacy testsSo, one way democracies degenerate is because of cunning leaders. But democracies crumble also because of the people themselves. As an intellectual historian, I can assure you that the specter of an ignorant populace holding sway has kept many philosophers, writers and politicians awake.

America's founders believed civic education and historical knowledge would prevent tyranny – and foster democracy (msn.com)

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

That might explain MAGAs.

And why Republicans have wanted to abolish public education for so many years.

Doug

I think your on to something!:tu: It is the Conservative Republicans and the Extreme Religious Right who want to control our Libraries and choose what can and what can’t be read. Well, it appears that Heinrich Heine's said it best , "those who burn books will in the end burn people” it would appear this could be Trumps ultimate goal.:no:

Happy New Year Doug.

Edited by Grim Reaper 6
  • Like 5
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

That might explain MAGAs.

And why Republicans have wanted to abolish public education for so many years.

Doug

Who? The Republicans are the ones wanting to get back to basic education along with civics and history. All the Democrats want to teach is equity diversion and inclusion. Who cares if they can read or do math? They also always vote no on school choice.

Edited by Michelle
  • Like 2
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Michelle said:

Who? The Republicans are the ones wanting to get back to basic education along with civics and history. All the Democrats want to teach is equity diversion and inclusion. Who cares if they can read or do math? They also always vote no on school choice.

Not to mention it is progressives who seek to erase history because those figures may not live up to today's standards.

  • Like 3
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

The majority of Americans today are anxious; they believe their democracy is under threat.

In fact, democracies deteriorate easily. As was feared since the times of Greek philosopher Plato, they may suddenly succumb to mob rule. The people will think they have an inalienable right to manifest their opinions – which means to state out loud whatever passes through their minds. They will act accordingly, often violently. They will make questionable decisions. Democracies may pave the way to tyrants. Self-serving leaders will appear. They will seek to rewrite national history by purging it of complexity and inconvenient truths. They will capitalize on the widespread frustration and profit from the chaotic situation. Should these leaders seize power, they will curtail the people’s participation in politics. They will discriminate based on race, sex or religion. They will create barriers to democratic participation by certain constituents, including moral tests or literacy testsSo, one way democracies degenerate is because of cunning leaders. But democracies crumble also because of the people themselves. As an intellectual historian, I can assure you that the specter of an ignorant populace holding sway has kept many philosophers, writers and politicians awake.

America's founders believed civic education and historical knowledge would prevent tyranny – and foster democracy (msn.com)

I'm sure both left and right think the other side is ignorant.  Having robust checks and balances along with a small government is the best way to protect what we have....  

  • Like 5
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Edumakated said:

I'm sure both left and right think the other side is ignorant.  Having robust checks and balances along with a small government is the best way to protect what we have....  

Well, there is little doubt the Left looks at the Right that way, especially since the left consists of the Academic Community!:yes: But, I think your certainly right concerning small Government and checks and balances.

HAPPY NEW YEAR:tu:

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, Edumakated said:

Not to mention it is progressives who seek to erase history because those figures may not live up to today's standards.

That is exactly what banning books does, it is an attempt to change / rewrite history. But the more the religious extremists and conservatives on the right do this, the more resistance will rise up to stop them. Since they are the minority in America, they had better rethink their actions, before they get stepped upon!!:yes:

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

I think your on to something!:tu: It is the Conservative Republicans and the Extreme Religious Right who want to control our Libraries and choose what can and what can’t be read. Well, it appears that Heinrich Heine's said it best , "those who burn books will in the end burn people” it would appear this could be Trumps ultimate goal.:no:

Happy New Year Doug.

Happy New Year to you, GR, and to everybody on UM.  Don't drink and drive.

Doug

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Doug1066 said:

Happy New Year to you, GR, and to everybody on UM.  Don't drink and drive.

Doug

Thank you very much Doug, and just saying I have not drank any alcohol in more than 20 years!!:tu:

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Michelle said:

Who? The Republicans are the ones wanting to get back to basic education along with civics and history. All the Democrats want to teach is equity diversion and inclusion. Who cares if they can read or do math? They also always vote no on school choice.

The Republicans are trying to ban Civil War history by banning any book that would make someone feel bad.

History is not there to make you feel good.  It is there to learn from.

 

Here in Oklahoma, our governor is trying to ban all diversity and inclusivity programs.

What he doesn't seem to understand is that these are tutorial programs aimed at bringing marginalized students into the mainstream.  Oklahoma's schools are so badly funded that many students arrive at college unable to do sophomore-level high school work.  That has been made worse by covid, a disease that Trump (Republican) made worse.

When I went to high school, we were required to write a 50-page paper for senior-level high school English.  Many students arrive here, never having written two whole pages.  Diversity and inclusivity tutors teach students what the high schools should have taught and didn't - mostly due to too few teachers.

In my day, the high schools divided students into those with a reasonable chance at success and sent them to college-prep programs.  They sent those they deemed not worth the effort to shop and home-ec programs.  A student's life was decided for him when he first entered high school.  Diversity and inclusion tries to get around that by giving poor-performing students some extra help.  Ever sit in on a low-level class where the girl in front of you is talking about here career as a hooker and the boy behind you is talking about a drug deal that went bad?  That's what we have to deal with.  And Republicans are not helping.

The other choice is to send kids to a couple of additional years of high school (We call it "remedial work.") at their expense.  Our local remedial school is Northern Oklahoma College (aka "NOC - No Other Choice.")..

Either we come up with a way to solve these problems, or we consign half our incoming Freshmen to failing to graduate and having a large debt when they drop out.

Doug

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

Thank you very much Doug, and just saying I have not drank any alcohol in more than 20 years!!:tu:

You're a better man than I am.

Doug

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Edumakated said:

Not to mention it is progressives who seek to erase history because those figures may not live up to today's standards.

As the gg-grandson of one of Sherman's soldiers, I support teaching history as i9t happened.  I do not support teaching the myth of the Lost Cause.

History is what actually happened.  All else is false-hood.

 

I would like to see some incoming students who can actually do high-school level algebra.  It's time to help students live up to those standards.

Doug

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/31/2023 at 5:07 PM, Doug1066 said:

You're a better man than I am.

Doug

I spent New Year's Eve playing Cards Against Humanity.  First time I ever played a game.

You should try taking Cards Against Humanity and mixing the deck with Cards Christians Like.  Results are hilarious.

Doug

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/31/2023 at 3:43 PM, Michelle said:

Who? The Republicans are the ones wanting to get back to basic education along with civics and history. All the Democrats want to teach is equity diversion and inclusion. Who cares if they can read or do math? They also always vote no on school choice.

I think the schism is finally reaching the point where a new paradigm is going to come forward organically.  If for example, we see the same kinds of loss of trust in the ballot this year we may well see people unplugging from DC and refusing to pay for their schemes while creating new systems of education within the states.  One idea my nephew and niece (3 under the age of 5) are pondering is a "neighborhood" crowdfunding of private professional teachers that will not indoctrinate and will stick absolutely to the basics that people need to survive and make their way in a dangerous world.  If it begins making headway, it will be interesting to see how DC tries to strangle it in the cradle.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, and-then said:

 One idea my nephew and niece (3 under the age of 5) are pondering is a "neighborhood" crowdfunding of private professional teachers that will not indoctrinate and will stick absolutely to the basics that people need to survive and make their way in a dangerous world.  If it begins making headway, it will be interesting to see how DC tries to strangle it in the cradle.

We tried something similar in the UK. Half of them became hotbeds of radicalisation and extremism to the point the government had to step in remove staff or shut them down.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Setton said:

We tried something similar in the UK. Half of them became hotbeds of radicalisation and extremism to the point the government had to step in remove staff or shut them down.

A wet dream for AT

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
On 12/31/2023 at 8:45 PM, Grim Reaper 6 said:

The majority of Americans today are anxious; they believe their democracy is under threat.

In fact, democracies deteriorate easily. As was feared since the times of Greek philosopher Plato, they may suddenly succumb to mob rule. The people will think they have an inalienable right to manifest their opinions – which means to state out loud whatever passes through their minds. They will act accordingly, often violently. They will make questionable decisions. Democracies may pave the way to tyrants. Self-serving leaders will appear. They will seek to rewrite national history by purging it of complexity and inconvenient truths. They will capitalize on the widespread frustration and profit from the chaotic situation. Should these leaders seize power, they will curtail the people’s participation in politics. They will discriminate based on race, sex or religion. They will create barriers to democratic participation by certain constituents, including moral tests or literacy testsSo, one way democracies degenerate is because of cunning leaders. But democracies crumble also because of the people themselves. As an intellectual historian, I can assure you that the specter of an ignorant populace holding sway has kept many philosophers, writers and politicians awake.

America's founders believed civic education and historical knowledge would prevent tyranny – and foster democracy (msn.com)

Revolution comes with right to bear arms combined with enough people having nothing to loose.

Until then people put up with everything. The great divide of political polarisation could feasibly at this point become a dictatorship left or right.

Edited by Electric Scooter
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What should a US public school teach?

JMO, even more important to than math and science (which only some will use) is the foundation and accurate history of Western Culture,  from the Greeks onward.  We need  a particular focus on American History and civics.  Everybody, smart and dumb, should get as much of that as they can absorb. World history and our conflicts and contributions with other cultures is necessary too.   Those are the kind of things one doesn't learn at their mother's knee or in a church. 

If you think public schools are just there as a freebie or a pool of money to take advantage of, or totally subject to the whims of parents, think again.  The founders funded public schools to strengthen the nation and the government. We have always needed a workforce competitive or superior in skill and technology to the  other nations we compete with. We have always needed citizens who know how our government functions and how to keep it viable and serving the populace.  

Some of the ideas presented seem to be geared toward post apocalypse America before we even have the apocalypse.

Basic survival skills are exactly what should be taught by parents, family, and community. 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
On 1/1/2024 at 1:07 AM, Doug1066 said:

The Republicans are trying to ban Civil War history by banning any book that would make someone feel bad.

History is not there to make you feel good.  It is there to learn from.

 

Here in Oklahoma, our governor is trying to ban all diversity and inclusivity programs.

What he doesn't seem to understand is that these are tutorial programs aimed at bringing marginalized students into the mainstream.  Oklahoma's schools are so badly funded that many students arrive at college unable to do sophomore-level high school work.  That has been made worse by covid, a disease that Trump (Republican) made worse.

When I went to high school, we were required to write a 50-page paper for senior-level high school English.  Many students arrive here, never having written two whole pages.  Diversity and inclusivity tutors teach students what the high schools should have taught and didn't - mostly due to too few teachers. Writing is a very important and needed skill, and I have no idea why so little attention is dedicated to it now. When I became a student it was not that hard to write different papers as it was for my groupmates. And now when I need to write a coursework or dissertation, I'm okay with it. Of course, I have problems with some parts, but it's not that bad. Once I used the help of https://essays.edubirdie.com/dissertation-proposal-writing-services because I needed to finish and send that part as soon as possible, and I had no time, so I decided to use professional help. But now I do my best to write everything myself, and I'm glad that my school taught me something. And I hope that soon something will change, because students struggle with it.

In my day, the high schools divided students into those with a reasonable chance at success and sent them to college-prep programs.  They sent those they deemed not worth the effort to shop and home-ec programs.  A student's life was decided for him when he first entered high school.  Diversity and inclusion tries to get around that by giving poor-performing students some extra help.  Ever sit in on a low-level class where the girl in front of you is talking about here career as a hooker and the boy behind you is talking about a drug deal that went bad?  That's what we have to deal with.  And Republicans are not helping.

The other choice is to send kids to a couple of additional years of high school (We call it "remedial work.") at their expense.  Our local remedial school is Northern Oklahoma College (aka "NOC - No Other Choice.")..

Either we come up with a way to solve these problems, or we consign half our incoming Freshmen to failing to graduate and having a large debt when they drop out.

Doug

I agree with you. The situation with books banning, changing programs, and taking out some topics that are controversial or can make someone feel sad or uncomfortable is just ridiculous. It's not how education should look like.
And you're right about schools now. I had to write a lot of papers, and when I became a student I was prepared for such tasks, and for me doing a lot of homework was okay. And now I see how my little brother studies, and I have no idea how he will survive in college.

Edited by gloriia82
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, gloriia82 said:

I agree with you. The situation with books banning, changing programs, and taking out some topics that are controversial or can make someone feel sad or uncomfortable is just ridiculous. It's not how education should look like.
And you're right about schools now. I had to write a lot of papers, and when I became a student I was prepared for such tasks, and for me doing a lot of homework was okay. And now I see how my little brother studies, and I have no idea how he will survive in college.

I'm descended from the "Butcher of Berwick."  Sir John Warren (who came out second-best to Wallace at Sterling Castle) "won" the Battle of Berwick, but then sent his men around to kill the wounded on the battlefield.  Not something I'm proud of, but then, you can't choose your relatives.

"Among the ancestors of every slave, there was a king; and among the ancestors of every king, there was a slave."  In one case (Jamaica), they were the same person.

Doug

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

America's founders believed civic education and historical knowledge would prevent tyranny

And the federal government has since taken incremental steps to undermine that safeguard against tyranny. :yes:

Edited by OverSword
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, OverSword said:

And the federal government has since taken incremental steps to undermine that safeguard against tyranny. :yes:

Education is a fad business.  Instead of implementing what works, we implement what is popular with politicians (who know as much about education as they do about abortion).

We need to let TEACHERS teach and quit pretending we know how to do it.

Doug

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, gloriia82 said:

I agree with you. The situation with books banning, changing programs, and taking out some topics that are controversial or can make someone feel sad or uncomfortable is just ridiculous. It's not how education should look like.
And you're right about schools now. I had to write a lot of papers, and when I became a student I was prepared for such tasks, and for me doing a lot of homework was okay. And now I see how my little brother studies, and I have no idea how he will survive in college.

On 12/31/2023 at 5:29 PM, Grim Reaper 6 said:

That is exactly what banning books does, it is an attempt to change / rewrite history. But the more the religious extremists and conservatives on the right do this, the more resistance will rise up to stop them. Since they are the minority in America, they had better rethink their actions, before they get stepped upon!!:yes:

You mean like that book not all boys are blue in middle schools? You know the one where the main character is a 9 year old who is raped by an adult family member. Goes in to graphic detail of anal rape. 
 

When exactly did it become a good thing for children to read graphic novels about rape, incest, and pedophilia? In what context is it ok for children to read about strap on dildo’s? 
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

I'm descended from the "Butcher of Berwick."  Sir John Warren (who came out second-best to Wallace at Sterling Castle) "won" the Battle of Berwick, but then sent his men around to kill the wounded on the battlefield.  Not something I'm proud of, but then, you can't choose your relatives.

"Among the ancestors of every slave, there was a king; and among the ancestors of every king, there was a slave."  In one case (Jamaica), they were the same person.

Doug

 

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.