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Does IQ matter? The murky history of intelligence tests


Still Waters

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35 minutes ago, pellinore said:

I think charisma and personality are the characteristics that make a politician successful, not intelligence. These can be learnt. Hitler used to practise his hand gestures during speeches in a mirror. Boris Johnson boasts that he confuses opponents by being vague and "boosterish" without making any mental effort (he is recorded as asking colleagues what a "customs union" was while negotiating the TCA with the EU). Farage is immensly popular because his xenophobia chimes with so many people as a reason why they are not doing well in life.

Starmer (and Ed Miliband) have zero charisma. 

Appearance is important- Rory Stewart has said his looks make him unappealing and he is right. Farage cultivates a "image of an ordinary bloke in a pub with a pint and a ciggie (his GBN show is called "Talking Pints").

So I don't think brightness is that important.

Physical stature is important- Rishi Sunak brought David Cameron back into the government so he can sit on his lap in cabinet meetings and see over the table.

If you think charisma trumps intelligence, why mention IQ tests instead of EQ? 

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20 minutes ago, OpenMindedSceptic said:

If you think charisma trumps intelligence, why mention IQ tests instead of EQ? 

Because the thread is about IQ tests.

I think you have failed at the first hurdle, so my advice is, don't take one.

Edited by pellinore
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8 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

My point was if we looked at the IQ of everyone in the world, there would be a correlation between those living good productive normal lives and higher IQs. Lower IQ people would correlate to less professional success and more social problems.

So, my answer to the OP question is 'Yes, IQ matters'.

So you didn't even bother to read the article, huh?

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3 hours ago, pellinore said:

I agree. I'm just saying that if you go to a top private school, you are much, much more likely to go to university than someone in a state school because of the almost 1:1 tuition, and the quality of teaching is likely to be better in a top university. In those circumstances a 2:2 in humanities is not great shakes. In a sense it would be hard not to get a decent degree (though Therese Coffey dropped out).

You get exactly the same education at a private school compared to a state school.

Where it differs is they also teach individualism rather than mass producing potted plants. Also, your kids aren`t around those who will drag down everyone else around them during their lives. Thats the reason why high schools mostly made up of council estate kids have the lowest pass rates.

All degrees have to be up to a national standard. While Oxbridge may be prestigious, your education is no better. Your connections you make are, but you have been taught the same stuff to the same standard.

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@OpenMindedScepticme ---> errrr. confused. sorry. quietly tip-toe away.

Edited by Alex_Rogan
bungled attempt at interjecting into the conversation. apologies.
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the chasm between regurgitating information and practical application is wider than the depths and heights of social aptitude and ineptitude.

Edited by Alex_Rogan
deleted superfluous words. lol
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Having a high IQ doesn’t always correlate with common sense given a choice between IQ and common sense I know which I would choose….

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12 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

I’ll add the thought that having money to start with is correlated with higher IQ of parents and grandparents. And so IQ matters.  And it also genetically influences the next generation.

I agree, a lot of people living in public housing over here are borderline morons, they are generationally dumb and the areas are full of trouble and drugs. I do think dumb people can be successful in a money making sense, depending on what business they run though.

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The problem with a lot of IQ tests is that you can practice them - they are essentially a selection of puzzle-like questions based on set concepts.

This means that what you are really being tested on is how good you can do IQ tests.

It also quantifies intelligence purely on someone's ability to solve these types of puzzles which doesn't necessarily reflect real-world capabilities or decision-making.

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15 hours ago, Occupational Hubris said:

So you didn't even bother to read the article, huh?

Read it. No issues there that I have not seen discussed before.

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19 hours ago, Alex_Rogan said:

@OpenMindedScepticwhat is EQ?

 

Emotional Quotient. 

The ability to communicate, diffuse situations, push through setbacks. The way we present ourselves.

Intelligence Quotient (IQ) is practically useless without EQ. 

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An IQ score is inherently somewhat arbitrary, but what it is attempting to measure certainly matters as it indicates, rather reliably, ones earning and professional potential.  Those with low(er) IQ scores may enjoy full and happy lives and earn lots of money before dying of old age, and those with high(er) IQs can likewise burn out and become wards of the state at an early age.  People at either extreme end I've found to be mostly useless, if not outright physically dangerous.

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21 hours ago, Electric Scooter said:

You get exactly the same education at a private school compared to a state school.

Don't be ridiculous.

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1 hour ago, OpenMindedSceptic said:

Emotional Quotient. 

The ability to communicate, diffuse situations, push through setbacks. The way we present ourselves.

Intelligence Quotient (IQ) is practically useless without EQ. 

Sory I was rude to you. You actually make a good point. I think I said something similar in my post about what makes a successful politician- charisma

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On 2/4/2024 at 10:14 AM, papageorge1 said:

My point was if we looked at the IQ of everyone in the world, there would be a correlation between those living good productive normal lives and higher IQs. Lower IQ people would correlate to less professional success and more social problems.

So, my answer to the OP question is 'Yes, IQ matters'.

....Then I suppose I am pretty stupid then. I barely squeaked by in school, was barely average, not one teacher saw anything in me even in the slightest and remote sense. Not even my parents and that's okay because I am one of those types that is basically disposable.

Fast forward to now where I have no income, no job (can't afford a car) or anything so..I'm an idiot. A blithering one at that 😑

On the flip side however I never was in trouble with the law, never drank, smoked anything or did drugs; never joined a gang, never committed vandalism or graffiti and so forth.

Still...nothing academic came naturally or relatively easy to me, everything was always a struggle. In school I quickly learned that whenever I thought something seemed 'easy' or that I thought I did well on a test I discovered that, despite studying, I failed or got a D.

I took a few online I.Q tests and apparently I am barely average (100 - 105 I think). Oh well....

 

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2 hours ago, Bendy Demon said:

....Then I suppose I am pretty stupid then. I barely squeaked by in school, was barely average, not one teacher saw anything in me even in the slightest and remote sense. Not even my parents and that's okay because I am one of those types that is basically disposable.

Fast forward to now where I have no income, no job (can't afford a car) or anything so..I'm an idiot. A blithering one at that 😑

On the flip side however I never was in trouble with the law, never drank, smoked anything or did drugs; never joined a gang, never committed vandalism or graffiti and so forth.

Still...nothing academic came naturally or relatively easy to me, everything was always a struggle. In school I quickly learned that whenever I thought something seemed 'easy' or that I thought I did well on a test I discovered that, despite studying, I failed or got a D.

I took a few online I.Q tests and apparently I am barely average (100 - 105 I think). Oh well....

 

You just expressed yourself too well to be classified a blithering idiot. Low esteem may be an issue.

Your IQ sounds average to just above.

One thing I should remember when getting into IQ discussions is that being logical I know half the people are of below average IQ by definition. This is not what is politically correct to say.

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3 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

You just expressed yourself too well to be classified a blithering idiot. Low esteem may be an issue.

So..what sort of idiot am I then? 😜

Low self esteem? I guess I prefer reality to baseless high opinions of myself, I judge myself based on my experiences all through life and the results are less than encouraging. That said I suppose my judgment of my supposed intelligence (or quite possibly lack thereof) is compared to what I see out there, my own nature doesn't really dovetail with the majority meaning that according to society I am not ambitious and competitive enough; I never really wanted anything nor did I necessarily want to 'be' anything. Furthermore society tells me in many ways (some of which are not so subtle) that I am somehow a lazy failure because I have no interest in a so-called 'career' nor am I interested in climbing the corporate ladder hence it is assumed I am not only lazy but that I must therefore have a low I.Q.

However I digress, none of the tests I took all through compulsory schooling indicated that I had any measure of an I.Q that indicated I was anything other than barely average. My focus is different I suppose and my 'desire' doesn't fit into this mode of society.

(No coffee means no brain function right now)

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On 2/4/2024 at 8:20 PM, Electric Scooter said:

You get exactly the same education at a private school compared to a state school.

Google "Friends (Quaker) Schools".

Then look at us with awe corporate peon. 

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18 minutes ago, Bendy Demon said:

I never really wanted anything nor did I necessarily want to 'be' anything.

That's ok, you do your own thing, not a sheep.

19 minutes ago, Bendy Demon said:

Furthermore society tells me in many ways (some of which are not so subtle) that I am somehow a lazy failure because I have no interest in a so-called 'career' nor am I interested in climbing the corporate ladder hence it is assumed I am not only lazy but that I must therefore have a low I.Q.

F society :tu:

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10 hours ago, Bendy Demon said:

....Then I suppose I am pretty stupid then. I barely squeaked by in school, was barely average, not one teacher saw anything in me even in the slightest and remote sense. Not even my parents and that's okay because I am one of those types that is basically disposable.

Fast forward to now where I have no income, no job (can't afford a car) or anything so..I'm an idiot. A blithering one at that 😑

On the flip side however I never was in trouble with the law, never drank, smoked anything or did drugs; never joined a gang, never committed vandalism or graffiti and so forth.

Still...nothing academic came naturally or relatively easy to me, everything was always a struggle. In school I quickly learned that whenever I thought something seemed 'easy' or that I thought I did well on a test I discovered that, despite studying, I failed or got a D.

I took a few online I.Q tests and apparently I am barely average (100 - 105 I think). Oh well....

 

You're not alone. I was never a school person. Mostly B and C throughout. The only thing that's made me a "success" (a subjective standard) is working for what I wanted. I'm a worker. 

The more I think about it. After I got my first job I thought about dropping out of school. I'd rather work than be bored all day. Plus free range learning seemed to work for me more. 

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@Bendy Demon and @XenoFish  the stanard school curriculum is not designed for intelligent people, it is designed for drones.  Neither of you are unintelligent and like I said before there is more to intelligence than anything any IQ test measures.   And someone pointed out that there are many versions of the test and you can get a different score on each one of them.   When my daughter was in the "gifted" program all the kids had to take a different test with the same critera of score to keep them in the program because the administration wanted to make the program smaller, eliminate some of the children, in order to save money.   My daughter had scored a lot higher on the original test given but on the Wexler test she scored just high enough to stay in the program.  

The online IQ tests are not reliable.   It should just be something you do for fun.

Also, both my kids had practice with some of those tests because my mother needed to practice giving the test for her Masters degree.   And then later one of their babysitters was related to someone who had to practice giving the tests for her bachelors degree in counseling.   Maybe it made a difference practicing, but maybe not.   All of the tests my daughter took for practice and to get into the "gifted" program were different and there are many different tests.

Edited by Desertrat56
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I think it does, but the typical IQ test is far from ideal. 

Although I have not seen a test that many could attempt that is better.

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On 2/5/2024 at 5:10 AM, Saru said:

The problem with a lot of IQ tests is that you can practice them - they are essentially a selection of puzzle-like questions based on set concepts.

This means that what you are really being tested on is how good you can do IQ tests.

It also quantifies intelligence purely on someone's ability to solve these types of puzzles which doesn't necessarily reflect real-world capabilities or decision-making.

Mr Walker was a good example of that as he used to brag about repeatedly taking IQ tests for no better reason than to improve his IQ scores. That's not how they were intended to be used IMO.

cormac

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