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Does IQ matter? The murky history of intelligence tests


Still Waters

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I have never known my IQ score nor do I care as all that matters to me is that I face a challenge and get a worthwhile result.

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  • 4 weeks later...
19 hours ago, Alex_Rogan said:

I want to ask A.I. to take an IQ Test, without looking up the answers.

What you call A.I. is just a huge database with a lot of grammatical rules and part of that database is your internet history so that if you ask it a question you will get a different answer than someone else asking the same question.  It is currently a marketing gimmic to figure out how to simulate human so that the companies can get rid of humans that need a salary and benefits.   It will be decades before they find one that will actually fool most people into believing they are talking to a human "representative".

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Some of the stupidest people I ever knew had high IQ's, and I'm talking active Mensa membership. Yet some of the cleverest people I ever knew barely had an education and probably had no idea of their IQ.

We have an unfortunate situation in the western world at the moment where there is a surfeit of stupidity amongst the leadership class. Whether they have high IQ's, who knows? If so, that would just make them stupid people with high IQ's

I have generally found that if someone tells you that they have a high IQ, get ready, you could be in for a treat...

 

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16 minutes ago, Horta said:

Some of the stupidest people I ever knew had high IQ's,

The phrase that comes to mind is 'over educated idiots'. 

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2 hours ago, Horta said:

Some of the stupidest people I ever knew had high IQ's, and I'm talking active Mensa membership. Yet some of the cleverest people I ever knew barely had an education and probably had no idea of their IQ.

We have an unfortunate situation in the western world at the moment where there is a surfeit of stupidity amongst the leadership class. Whether they have high IQ's, who knows? If so, that would just make them stupid people with high IQ's

I have generally found that if someone tells you that they have a high IQ, get ready, you could be in for a treat...

 

I always laugh my head off when someone tells me they have a high IQ, usually they have a number in mind and it is hilarious.

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On 2/5/2024 at 12:48 AM, Still Waters said:

A cool thing about IQ is it's not just a histogram of rank ordering the available population.  The constant, which is immutable albeit not static, so dynamic to mean it deteriorates rapidly after 24, which is the rational number defining the agent, or test subject's, ability to learn and comprehend correctly imho.  How quickly one is able to comprehend and then the same quickness at learning :'D.  Check out this hilariousness from aptitude tests employing the IQ metric for a normal distribution forced but I think the point is the rarity.  I'm Redfizzer.  Going to put some stats up as 8th_wall, new global alias.

2022-09-20 03:27:23
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2018-08-05 11:46:32
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PROMETE 65 http://www.nicologic.fr/commun/male.png Europe France
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@8th_wall  an aptitude test is not the same as an IQ test.   Aptitude tests are used by the military to determine where you will fit in the organization, or even whether you are trainable.   IQ tests test the ability to think outside the box, as well as understand what you read, how well you can think mathmatically, it is all about intellect (and education, because even people who were never taught to read could be genius).

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Not everyone who has a high IQ is an overeducated idiot, but then again a high IQ isn't acquired by retaking IQ tests, better known as "the Mr Walker Method". :w00t:

cormac

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Posted (edited)

Your high IQ is not a road to success, I know highly intelligent people who have turned into heroin addicts and total dumb a---s that have built multi million dollar businesses.

Edited by openozy
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Posted (edited)
On 2/6/2024 at 12:29 PM, papageorge1 said:

One thing I should remember when getting into IQ discussions is that being logical I know half the people are of below average IQ by definition. This is not what is politically correct to say.

That's probably why they generally just look at range ("normal" being where most people will fit). Normal sounds a lot better than slightly below average. lol. Although the IQ of students in most western countries has been dropping for decades.

While not specifically about IQ, I seem to recall Carlin pointing out something similar. The even funnier part is that we all seem to think that particular half is dominated by other people. When in reality we probably all take our turn. Regardless of IQ. lol

 

vtgiattgw3da1.jpg

Edited by Horta
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Does IQ matter? Not if you're stupid.

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, openozy said:

Your high IQ is not a road to success, I know highly intelligent people who have turned into heroin addicts and total dumb a---s that have built multi million dollar businesses.

You have to remember that the measure of success is subjective, not objective.   I won't speak to drug addiction but the multi-millionaire you know may be a successful human or may not depending on how he treats people.   My rule of thumb for "success" is that you are Not sitting on a pile of "gold" all alone, or stuck in a gutter all alone.   Successful people have others who really care for them whether they clean toilets for a living or have a multi-million dollar business.   And that has nothing to do with any IQ test results.  

A lot of people in my family score high on IQ tests but only two are millionaires and we love them just as much as the school teachers, accountants and mechanics in our family because they are still the same people they were when they were growing up, just take a lot more expensive vacations than the rest of us, though they both have hosted expensive family reunions and have made sure everyone could come (paid for organizing, hotel and food).   Those are successful millionaires in my opinion, but I will say that we also have several drug addicts with high IQ scores in the family as well.   After a while you can't help them when they don't want to help themselves, and that has nothing to do with IQ scores either.

Edited by Desertrat56
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8 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

You have to remember that the measure of success is subjective, not objective.   I won't speak to drug addiction but the multi-millionaire you know may be a successful human or may not depending on how he treats people.   My rule of thumb for "success" is that you are Not sitting on a pile of "gold" all alone, or stuck in a gutter all alone.   Successful people have others who really care for them whether they clean toilets for a living or have a multi-million dollar business.   And that has nothing to do with any IQ test results.  

A lot of people in my family score high on IQ tests but only two are millionaires and we love them just as much as the school teachers, accountants and mechanics in our family because they are still the same people they were when they were growing up, just take a lot more expensive vacations than the rest of us, though they both have hosted expensive family reunions and have made sure everyone could come (paid for organizing, hotel and food).   Those are successful millionaires in my opinion, but I will say that we also have several drug addicts with high IQ scores in the family as well.   After a while you can't help them when they don't want to help themselves, and that has nothing to do with IQ scores either.

Very true and I personally don't measure success through wealth but many do. Success to me is raising your kids to be nice people and being one yourself in day to day life without letting the bad guys bring you down. I was talking about societies idea of it as one girl I knew couldn't string two words together and was told by teachers she would amount to nothing. She started hair dressing and now owns a chain of beauty shops. I asked her last year what day Christmas falls on and she replied, the 25th of December, lol. She's still the not too bright girl but drives a Ferrari and owns several houses, lol.

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, openozy said:

Very true and I personally don't measure success through wealth but many do. Success to me is raising your kids to be nice people and being one yourself in day to day life without letting the bad guys bring you down. I was talking about societies idea of it as one girl I knew couldn't string two words together and was told by teachers she would amount to nothing. She started hair dressing and now owns a chain of beauty shops. I asked her last year what day Christmas falls on and she replied, the 25th of December, lol. She's still the not too bright girl but drives a Ferrari and owns several houses, lol.

My opinion is those teachers who told her she would amount to nothing should have been fired.   The problem (even in the 60's) with U.S. education is that it does not leave room for people with different abilities and difficulty reading and writing.   My brother was dyslexic and was labeled a bad kid until he was in 4th grade and someone ordered all the bad kids who couldn't read be tested.   He then ended up in a special ed class and ruled the class because he did have a high IQ but he had cognitive issues that made it difficult for him to read and write.   He got an engineering degree after high school.   He was a computer technician for a huge company (used to be BDM, can't remember what it's called now).   My mother got him help to cope with his dyslexia and he became an avid reader.  It wasn't easy for him but he loved reading, especially Shakespear.   So that girl was not stupid, she just didn't fit the zombie mold that is expected in public schools.   Again, it had nothing to do with intelligence or an IQ score.   The teachers probably had low IQ's (you know, you can't do, teach, it is the fallback degree for people who can afford college but can't think - not universally, some want to be teachers and are very good teachers, but the basic teaching degree is less arduous than other degreees).

Edited by Desertrat56
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On 2/4/2024 at 6:14 PM, Duke Wellington said:

There is nothing wrong with a 2.2 and a lot of companies accept them.

Anything less and no one will touch them.

I didn't realise you were Cookie. That explains a lot.

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Just now, pellinore said:

I didn't realise you were Cookie. That explains a lot.

Did Rabid Mongoose change his name again?

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I always thought that IQ tests were standardised with 100 being the average score. Yet I saw this table which shows some countries whose inhabitants have IQs of less than 70. That is considered severe mental impairment in the UK- people with scores that low cannot survive outside institutions. Yet a whole country can apparently be run by people unable to cook a meal or make a bed. Can anyone explain this?

Average IQ Scores By Country – WW IQ TEST

 

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, pellinore said:

I always thought that IQ tests were standardised with 100 being the average score. Yet I saw this table which shows some countries whose inhabitants have IQs of less than 70. That is considered severe mental impairment in the UK- people with scores that low cannot survive outside institutions. Yet a whole country can apparently be run by people unable to cook a meal or make a bed. Can anyone explain this?

Average IQ Scores By Country – WW IQ TEST

 

In the U.S. 100 is average, 70 is considered able to take care of themselves and hold a job.   30 is institutoional material.   But in the U.S. there are several different tests that score differently and are used by different entities (schools, psychciatrists, etc) and on all of the 100 is considered average.   It is a big monkey judgement that means nothing.   

 

1. Woodcock-Johnson Tests of Cognitive Abilities

Praised as one of the most comprehensive types of IQ tests, the Woodcock-Johnson test has gained a lot of popularity over the years.

Recommended for people between 2 to 90 years of age

Standard battery test – 10 tests

Extended battery test – 10 more tests

Provides a more in-depth look into cognitive abilities

Long form or short form testing available

2. Raven’s Progressive Matrices

One of the most ideal tests to give those that require sensory images, Raven’s Progressive Matrices seeks to learn more about the person’s IQ.

Recommended for people between 5 to 60 years of age

Uses pictures to test the person

Consists of 60 questions

Questions become progressively harder

Great for problem-solving and deductive reasoning skills

3. Cattell Culture Fair III

Invented to measure the cognitive abilities of the mind, the Cattell Culture Fair test also removes the outside factors that come with sociocultural and environmental concerns of each specific person taking the test. Designed to help bridge the gap between what we don’t know currently about the human mind.

Recommended for people of all ages

Gives a wider deviation of points – instead of the standard 16, you get 24

4. Kaufman Brief Intelligence Test    (this one was the popular one in public schools)

The Kaufman Brief Intelligence Test was created and used for those that have gifted intelligence. It is a test that can only be given in English, no other language, as this can change the test results.

Uses both verbal and non-verbal cues

Used in educational departments, clinical and research areas

 

Edited by Desertrat56
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@Desertrat56 You are right, I am wrong:

The WHO classifies severity of an intellectual disability as:[1, 5]

Mild (0.1-2.3 percentile): approximate IQ range of 50 to 69 (in adults, mental age from 9 to under 12 years). Likely to result in some learning difficulties in school. Many adults will be able to work and maintain good social relationships and contribute to society.

Moderate (0.003-0.1 percentile): approximate IQ range of 35 to 49 (in adults, mental age from 6 to under 9 years). Likely to result in marked developmental delays in childhood but most can learn to develop some degree of independence in self-care and acquire adequate communication and academic skills. Adults will need varying degrees of support to live and work in the community.

Severe (below 0.003 percentile): approximate IQ range of 20 to 34 (in adults, mental age from 3 to under 6 years). Likely to result in continuous need of support.

Profound ((below 0.003 percentile): IQ under 20 (in adults, mental age below 3 years). Results in severe limitation in self-care, continence, communication and mobility.

It still doesn't explain how a whole country can function with an average IQ of 70.

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Posted (edited)

I think IQ has value only when it is combined with high EQ (emotional quotient) levels as well. 

Self-awareness, empathy, balance ,emotional regulation, interpersonal skills, social awareness, conflict management skills are characteristics of high EQ levels.

https://www.euruni.edu/blog/9-characteristics-of-emotionally-intelligent-people/

https://maven.com/articles/signs-of-high-emotional-intelligence

 

Quote

A man who has never gone to school may steal from a freight car; but if he has a university education, he may steal the whole railroad. ~ Theodore Roosevelt.

The German scientists and engineers in the second world war were considered the best in the world during that time, and so did the general German population which benefitted from free and inexpensive universal education. However their intellectual proficiency did not translate automatically into self-awareness and moral ability as well. 

Instead of protesting against the control of German political institutions by the Nazis, their conditioned selves actually became assets for the Nazis to promote their agenda, which ended in the defeat and ruin of their nation. Here you can see high intellectual abilities does not necessarily translate into correct judgement due to the influence of national conditioning and propaganda.

In the modern world, scientists and engineers have build wmd and nuclear weapons which can destroy their countries many times over in a nuclear war. 

Soviet nuclear physicist Andrei Sakharov was one of the very few scientists who had the self-awareness and moral  compass to understand the devastation that can be caused by nuclear weapons, and he became a life long opponent of such weapons seeking their elimination in the wider interests of humanity.

Hence, IQ without EQ is a recipte for disaster in the long run, imho.

Edited by Ajay0
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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, pellinore said:

@Desertrat56 You are right, I am wrong:

The WHO classifies severity of an intellectual disability as:[1, 5]

Mild (0.1-2.3 percentile): approximate IQ range of 50 to 69 (in adults, mental age from 9 to under 12 years). Likely to result in some learning difficulties in school. Many adults will be able to work and maintain good social relationships and contribute to society.

Moderate (0.003-0.1 percentile): approximate IQ range of 35 to 49 (in adults, mental age from 6 to under 9 years). Likely to result in marked developmental delays in childhood but most can learn to develop some degree of independence in self-care and acquire adequate communication and academic skills. Adults will need varying degrees of support to live and work in the community.

Severe (below 0.003 percentile): approximate IQ range of 20 to 34 (in adults, mental age from 3 to under 6 years). Likely to result in continuous need of support.

Profound ((below 0.003 percentile): IQ under 20 (in adults, mental age below 3 years). Results in severe limitation in self-care, continence, communication and mobility.

It still doesn't explain how a whole country can function with an average IQ of 70.

The explanation is that the IQ test does not measure everything, and it requires one to know current social constructs, so someone who is very intelligent could score low on that test if they had been raised outside of society.   It measures what some eggheads think is required to do well in certain feilds.   The aptitude test is more reliable but also has flaws.

There are IQ tests designed for children about the age of 4 that do not require the ability to read, those may be more accurate in some ways but still, it is only a test of potential, with many variables being left out.

Edited by Desertrat56
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A man who has never gone to school may steal from a freight car; but if he has a university education, he may steal the whole railroad. ~ Theodore Roosevelt.

Just goes to show a university education doesn't make you clever. You can sneak stuff you've nicked from a freight car into your house or garage, but how are you going to hide a whole railroad? You'd be caught straight away.

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7 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Screw college. Go to trade school. 

 …as long as your not afraid of hard work. ??    Well,  painting for forty years was hard work ,,the way I did I it anyway!   :P     But, ya, if a person can become a skilled tradesman, he won’t starve.  

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