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Trump says he would encourage Russia to attack Nato countries


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3 hours ago, Agent0range said:

So what do you make of this?

Trump claims he "interposed" Nikki Haley out of sarcasm.  No, he is just as mentally incompetent as Joe Biden.  It was not sarcastic.  He's an old, confused man.

If Trump said it, it was a simple mistake anyone might make.

If Biden said it, it was a clear-cut case of mental incompetence, likely senility.

Easy peasy.

 

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14 hours ago, Hankenhunter said:

Proof please.

I said 

14 hours ago, Hankenhunter said:

I believe

 

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12 hours ago, Paranoid Android said:

Trump made a mistake, imo.  No excuses, but stampeding straight to mental incompetence is not a natural conclusion from this, though it is the conclusion you've come to. Which is cool, disagreements are expected :)

See, this is why we have the "Trump Whisperer" label.  You go and explain the meaning of everything he says or if he is saying it in error.  It's as if you are implying you know his true meanings and we should disregard what actually comes out of his mouth.

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23 hours ago, Tom1200 said:

The sad thing is - you probably have some sincere, salient points that deserve sensible scrutiny.  But anything positive is drowned out by your overwhelming and undemocratic hostility towards any viewpoint that challenges your own.

I thought I made a mistake ponce, nut I was wrong.  I will admit to being wrong when I make a mistake.  If you'd bother to read my posts, you might note that I usually apologize when I am wrong.  It's right here on UM for all to read.

 

23 hours ago, Tom1200 said:

I reckon SCOTUS knows more than you about the law,

I reckon SCOTUS does, too.  But they've made mistakes before, a salient one being selecting George W, Bush over Al Gore as President.  The proper way to ensure a correct result in that election was to re-count the entire state of Florida, but they only ordered selected counties, chosen to give Bush the advantage.  People who know how to count and measure things know this, but a bunch of judges and ex-lawyers don't:  they have no training in that, yet they make uninformed decisions based on their lack of knowledge.  This is routine.

 

"The Supreme Court has invalidated parts of laws/amendments before.  I hold little hope that they will resort to strict constructionism this time, in spite of their previous statements."

Those are my words from Post 250.  You want to bet me that they will do what I said?  If you'd read my posts, you'd know what you are talking about.

Doug

 

 

Edited by Doug1066
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22 hours ago, Paranoid Android said:

Get your Trump hatred back into facts. MAGA came from Reagan! 

Which came from Mein Kampf.

Doug

Edited by Doug1066
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Fact chec

Hitler and Trump: Common Slogans?

Various images attempted to connect Donald Trump and Adolf Hitler through slogans promising to make their respective countries "great again."

What's True

A prominent theme during the Nazi Party's ascendancy was restoring Germany to its former greatness, and Adolf Hitler used the phrase "make Germany great again" upon occasion.

What's False

"Make Germany Great Again" was not a (campaign) slogan employed by Hitler, and Donald Trump and Adolf Hitler are far from the only politicians who promised to make their countries "great again."

cont...

Hitler and Trump: Common Slogans? | Snopes.com

 

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22 hours ago, Paranoid Android said:

When did a distinction between sex and gender become a serious distinction?

Many gender types have been known since the 19th century, but weren’t formalized medical/psychiatric thinking until 1980.  As with other forms of science, this is reality.  Not liking it and wishing it wasn’t so won’t make it that way.  Some Republicans don’t understand the difference.  That ought to be a warning not to judge others, but for some of them, it isn’t.

“Judge not, lest ye be judged (Matthew 7:1-3).”

Doug

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22 hours ago, Paranoid Android said:

Evidence that the media has become a left wing mouth piece? Try this video for a bit of context about the MSM!

Back in 1980 that was middle-of-the-road.  Rubs moved the goal posts.

That's what happened to me:  I used to be middle-of-the-road, but somehow the road moved:  I'm now on the left side of it.

 

I am involved in a study of reform movements in America since the late 18th century.  John Woolman started things off by refusing to write a bill-of-sale when his employer sold a slave.  That started the abolitionist movement.  Abolitionists were joined by many others, including labor unions, women's rights groups, suffragettes, free lovers, socialists, the counter-culture and so on, continuing to the present time.  What keeps these groups going if there is nothing wrong with society?

Doug

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17 hours ago, Agent0range said:

I think they are both mentally incompetent because of their "mistakes."  But you think one person makes a mistake and the other is mentally incompetent when they make a mistake.  You type TDS so much it's in your autocorrect, yet you are quick to defend one gaffe, and claim another is dementia....

Sheer quantity plays into it. Trump makes a gaffe every now and then, Biden makes a gaffe virtually every time he is on stage. Obama made gaffes too. So did Bush, so did Clinton, and pretty much every politician ever. Trump also doesn't fall over if the wind is too strong, though that doesn't stop the media from trying to pretend otherwise. Trump doesn't lose himself on stage, shake hands with phantoms and boast about meeting with world leaders who have been dead for 30 years. 

If the sum total of Biden's incompetence was a gaffe here or there, we wouldn't be having this discussion!  

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4 hours ago, Gromdor said:

See, this is why we have the "Trump Whisperer" label.  You go and explain the meaning of everything he says or if he is saying it in error.  It's as if you are implying you know his true meanings and we should disregard what actually comes out of his mouth.

:blink: Aren't you also trying to "whisper" then, if calling a mistake a mistake isn't good enough, then what is? 

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3 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

Which came from Mein Kampf.

Doug

Michelle's link goes into decent detail. If you wish to believe Trump was quoting Hitler, that's your prerogative. 

 

2 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

Many gender types have been known since the 19th century, but weren’t formalized medical/psychiatric thinking until 1980.  As with other forms of science, this is reality.  Not liking it and wishing it wasn’t so won’t make it that way.  Some Republicans don’t understand the difference.  That ought to be a warning not to judge others, but for some of them, it isn’t.

“Judge not, lest ye be judged (Matthew 7:1-3).”

Doug

Did you look up the works of John Money, and how he was the pioneer behind gender and sex? 

 

2 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

Back in 1980 that was middle-of-the-road.  Rubs moved the goal posts.

That's what happened to me:  I used to be middle-of-the-road, but somehow the road moved:  I'm now on the left side of it.

 

I am involved in a study of reform movements in America since the late 18th century.  John Woolman started things off by refusing to write a bill-of-sale when his employer sold a slave.  That started the abolitionist movement.  Abolitionists were joined by many others, including labor unions, women's rights groups, suffragettes, free lovers, socialists, the counter-culture and so on, continuing to the present time.  What keeps these groups going if there is nothing wrong with society?

Doug

Did you watch the video I linked about the bias in the media? 

It's interesting that I'd argue my values haven't changed and yet I'm now on the right side of the road whereas you're arguing you're on the left side now, despite also not changing. 

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3 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

I thought I made a mistake ponce, nut I was wrong.  I will admit to being wrong when I make a mistake.  If you'd bother to read my posts, you might note that I usually apologize when I am wrong.  It's right here on UM for all to read.

In post 120 on Tuesday you wrote: "I stand corrected:  Donald Trump is not a rapist", and on Wednesday I gave you a "thanks" in recognition of your acceptance of that fact.

So I do look at most posts here before I respond.  What I can't and won't do is read every word of cut'n'paste ranting from multiple echo-chamber sources all trying to outdo one another in their condemnation of Trump.

There are too many topics under discussion in this thread for a mere Brit to keep track of, so please forgive me if I just dip in and out to challenge the more dumb and baseless statements I spot.  Such as:

3 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

(MAGA) came from Mein Kampf.

I know @Michelle has already debunked this silliness, so I won't repeat all that she said.  Instead all I'll do is wonder rhetorically why intelligent people make such obviously idiotic statements...

3 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

"The Supreme Court has invalidated parts of laws/amendments before.  I hold little hope that they will resort to strict constructionism this time, in spite of their previous statements."

Those are my words from Post 250.  You want to bet me that they will do what I said?

No, I won't take that bet.  In #262 I made a prediction for how SCOTUS will rule.  I'm either going to be proved wrong or right.  Your loaded statement above is already second-guessing an outcome you expect to disagree with, looking to discredit SCOTUS as partisan.  After all - "they've made mistakes before", according to one resident expert.

3 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

Many gender types have been known since the 19th century, but weren’t formalized medical/psychiatric thinking until 1980.  As with other forms of science, this is reality.

A bit off-topic, but anyway:

Science, y'say?  Reality?  So - what's the current scientific definition of gender?  And how many genders are there today?  Y'know, scientifically speaking: two? eight? (here) exactly 107? (here) many hundreds? (here).  Just askin' for a friend. 

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6 hours ago, Tom1200 said:

 

Science, y'say?  Reality?  So - what's the current scientific definition of gender?  And how many genders are there today?  Y'know, scientifically speaking: two? eight? (here) exactly 107? (here) many hundreds? (here).  Just askin' for a friend. 

Gender is the social, psychological and cultural aspects of being a man or woman.

Biological sex is what determines which gamete cells one reproduces with. 

 

Gender =/= Biological sex

This has been we understood and studied for decades in so-called "soft" sciences like sociology and anthology. 

Edited by Occupational Hubris
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12 hours ago, OverSword said:

I said 

 

Umm... man, woman, camera, whale? 🤔

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1 hour ago, Occupational Hubris said:

Gender is the social, psychological and cultural aspects of being a man or woman.

Biological sex is what determines which gamete cells one reproduces with. 

 

Gender =/= Biological sex

This has been we understood and studied for decades in so-called "soft" sciences like sociology and anthology. 

I disagree with this.

I think many have been subjected to conversion therapy by their parents to mess up their gender identity.

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Just now, Electric Scooter said:

I disagree with this.

I think many have been subjected to conversion therapy by their parents to mess up their gender identity.

Doesn't matter if you disagree. Those are still the accepted definitions of the terms as used in many fields. 

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11 hours ago, Michelle said:

Fact chec

Hitler and Trump: Common Slogans?

Various images attempted to connect Donald Trump and Adolf Hitler through slogans promising to make their respective countries "great again."

What's True

A prominent theme during the Nazi Party's ascendancy was restoring Germany to its former greatness, and Adolf Hitler used the phrase "make Germany great again" upon occasion.

What's False

"Make Germany Great Again" was not a (campaign) slogan employed by Hitler, and Donald Trump and Adolf Hitler are far from the only politicians who promised to make their countries "great again."

cont...

Hitler and Trump: Common Slogans? | Snopes.com

 

Irrespective of the words they use, Trump and Hitler were/are examples of populism. We have the same in the UK and some other European countries.

Populist politicians tell people things they want to hear- our country is great, our people are great, the only reason we are not all enjoying the fruits of our greatness is because we are being undermined- by judges, Lefties, other races, Fifth Columnists, unions, immigrants, the list is long and tailored to what people want to hear.

Populism has contradictory strands- we are powerful, but also vulnerable. People admire us, but also constantly want to attack us. Our people make us great, but also try to undermine us. To question our greatness is to be a traitor, except when I do it, because I know how to make us great again.

Trump has already destabilised world order by his encouragement of Putin, and he isn't even in office. Just imagine the damage he will wreak if he ever becomes POTUS again.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, pellinore said:

Trump has already destabilised world order by his encouragement of Putin, and he isn't even in office. Just imagine the damage he will wreak if he ever becomes POTUS again.

Hang on!

What Trump said was dumb.  No question about that.  But look at where it was said.

He didn't say it directly to Vlad, or a reporter, or announce it as GOP policy.  It was a dumb comment during a (generally bland and repetitive) speech to an audience of fawning acolytes. 

And the context?  He was referencing a supposed conversation with the leader of a large European NATO country who (at the time at least) wasn't spending 2% GDP on defence (as required by the terms of NATO membership).  

Personally I rather doubt that conversation ever took place.  But Trump has spoken repeatedly over the years about the need for other countries to bear their fair share of the costs.  As one such European I don't think that's especially unreasonable or controversial.  Throughout Europe we've seen governments of all hues trimming defence budgets in a misguided belief that there is no clear or imminent danger of conflict, all forgetting the maxim si vis pacem, para bellum.

Also I can't see the logic or causal link how a dumb statement made in 2024 led to Putin annexing Crimea in 2014, or the full-scale invasion in 2022.  Or any of dozens other conflicts Putin has initiated or supported during his dictatorship.  

As for your take on populism: I'm struggling to think of any politician who doesn't want to be elected.*  And part of that process is winning support by telling people what they want to hear: here's a problem but we've got the answers.  Watch any party political broadcast: "x, y or z is wrong but we will fix it (usually by throwing lots of your money at it)".  That's hardly unique to the right wing: everything you wrote is just as true of Putin, Jinping, Kim, Macron, Trudeau or Obrador.

* Well, maybe the Green Party.

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Fascinating how everything Trump says is vigorously defended and excuses made for it by some, no matter how threatening or stupid , or over the top it is.

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On 2/12/2024 at 10:13 PM, Razman said:

Seems they turn a blind eye to pretty much anything he does.

That hilarious. Biden literally forced Russia’s hand in invading Ukraine. None of this would be happening if Biden didn’t tell Ukraine they were going to be able to join NATO. Then actively stopped a peace agreement between the two. 
 

You guys are actually going to be mad when Trump brokers a peace agreement between them. BTW Putin endorsed another Biden term. 
 

As for the topic, it’s insane that there are excuses why we and a few other countries are flipping the bill for NATO, while other countries have refused to give their agreed to amount. Trump is crazy for expecting them to pay their fair share. 
 

I miss real liberals. The ones who were against wars. 

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6 hours ago, pellinore said:

Irrespective of the words they use, Trump and Hitler were/are examples of populism. We have the same in the UK and some other European countries.

Populist politicians tell people things they want to hear- our country is great, our people are great, the only reason we are not all enjoying the fruits of our greatness is because we are being undermined- by judges, Lefties, other races, Fifth Columnists, unions, immigrants, the list is long and tailored to what people want to hear.

Populism has contradictory strands- we are powerful, but also vulnerable. People admire us, but also constantly want to attack us. Our people make us great, but also try to undermine us. To question our greatness is to be a traitor, except when I do it, because I know how to make us great again.

Trump has already destabilised world order by his encouragement of Putin, and he isn't even in office. Just imagine the damage he will wreak if he ever becomes POTUS again.

The political spectrum is about the number of people in government and the degree to which they use the legal system to force their policies onto a population.

Far-left means a dictatorship, monarchy, theocracy, or very limited number of people making the decisions. As they don`t represent the vast majority of the people they have to make heavy use of the legal system to force their policies onto the population.

Far-right means a true democracy where the entire population form the government. There has only been one example in history of a true democracy and that is ancient Athens. Back then their population was small enough for everyone to fit into a stadium to debate and vote on the policies and laws. As the most people possible are involved then the laws needed to enforce policy are at their minimum.

The political spectrum has nothing to do with socialism, conservatism, liberalism, nationalism, fascism, or any other political ideology. It exists independent of them, and they each can occupy any position along the political spectrum.  Republics and Constitutional Monarchies, are all centre-right by very definition. Yet they have two forces present:

Better Representation: With them not being true democracies dissatisfaction exists over the policies enacted. But it is less dissatisfaction than in a far-left government. These people want to move the political spectrum further to the right.

Reducing Representation: Those in government who want to push the policies they want while ignoring the population. They constantly try to move the political system further to the left using the legal system.

Populism is about better representation, and those who want to reduce representation hate it. The current approach taken in the USA to move the nation further to the left is to bad mouth populism as fascism. It is to indoctrinate youngsters in ideologies that will make them want to move the nation further to the left while stoking their fears and insecurities. It is to use the media to character assassinate and the legal system to close down free speech or opposing leaders. All Americans should be deeply concerned about this as its the slip towards tyranny.

When the USA has finished going through its current process we might find a new form of government arises. A remote democracy, which will be a new form of true democracy made possible because of the internet. Essentially, every citizen is involved in government. Americans will have to wait for the correction to come where the population finds a way of tell its leaders who want to reduce representation to sod off.

Trump isn`t the one. I mean he is pushing for better representation but he is not an innovator. I`m not convinced that any elected leader would push for remote democracy because they would all have to give up their personal power which is what politicians are in the business for.

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43 minutes ago, Electric Scooter said:

Populism is about better representation, and those who want to reduce representation hate it.

Fair play, you rarely disappoint. Your misinformation encompasses most topics, whether it is science, economics or politics. This Stanford paper gives one of many academic reviews of populism:

The rise of populism – a political argument that pits ordinary people against a corrupt, government elite – is putting democracy at risk, said Stanford scholars in a new white paper released today.

When populist leaders discredit formal institutions and functions, democracy is being undermined and hollowed out, warns Stanford political scientist and paper co-author Anna Grzymala-Busse.

Populism jeopardizes democracies around the world | Stanford News

Edited by pellinore
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1 hour ago, pellinore said:

Fair play, you rarely disappoint. Your misinformation encompasses most topics, whether it is science, economics or politics. This Stanford paper gives one of many academic reviews of populism:

The rise of populism – a political argument that pits ordinary people against a corrupt, government elite – is putting democracy at risk, said Stanford scholars in a new white paper released today.

When populist leaders discredit formal institutions and functions, democracy is being undermined and hollowed out, warns Stanford political scientist and paper co-author Anna Grzymala-Busse.

Populism jeopardizes democracies around the world | Stanford News

You do realise that the point of a democratic form of government is to represent the people?

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19 hours ago, Paranoid Android said:

It's interesting that I'd argue my values haven't changed and yet I'm now on the right side of the road whereas you're arguing you're on the left side now, despite also not changing. 

That is interesting.

I went through a major crisis of thought in 1970 after the Kent State murders.  I was a student at that campus until spring 1969; the murders were committed on May 4, 1970.  I dated Sandy Scheuer, a student murdered by the Guard.  They claimed it was self-defense, that students had been throwing stones at the Guardsmen.  She was 900 feet from the Guardsmen - I can't throw a stone that far.  Can you?

At any rate, that's when I realized that conservatives were willing to commit murder to keep people from speaking their mind under the First Amendment.  That's when I became a supporter of the Constitution and dedicated to the liberal side of the political spectrum.  I have been there ever since.  That was almost 54 years ago and I'm still mad as hell.

Conservatives are still trying to do away with the Bill of Rights.

Doug

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