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Dragons: An (Un)natural History


Still Waters

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Dragons are probably among the most recognizable and ubiquitous fantasy beasties in history. Across the world, from Europe to China, as well as the Americas and Australia, ancient and completely independent cultures have depicted and described similar creatures in their stories, art, folklore, and mythologies.

Given the widespread appearance of these iconic creatures across enormous geographic and cultural divides, it would be easy to assume they were inspired by the same thing. But the history of dragons, where they came from, and how they became so significant is a complex and illustrative story about human observations of the natural world and our propensity for storytelling come together. And, much like the case of the dragon, what it produces can be amazing and monstrous.

 https://www.iflscience.com/dragons-an-unnatural-history-72909

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I think actually that 'the dragon' is Earth, or her intelligence or 'spirit' as seen in the metaverse (not facebook - Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuckerbeeeeeeerg!!!!!like Kahn! JamesT.Kirk)

It is not a fantasy beast it is the feathered serpent. I mean not 'scientifically' of course. Just from a purely spirituistic approach. She is man and woman but always dragon.

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I still think that a lot of mythological creatures like dragons and faeries are memories from some other place that we were before we were on earth.

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I think it is possible that the dragons are a real creature that is a form of demonic and it goes in and out of our dimensions, and back to its own. 

Ditto for bigfoot, mothman, and others. I'm not 100% behind this theory but I do like contemplating it. 

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9 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

I think it is possible that the dragons are a real creature that is a form of demonic and it goes in and out of our dimensions, and back to its own. 

Ditto for bigfoot, mothman, and others. I'm not 100% behind this theory but I do like contemplating it. 

So why would they be demonic?  Is that because you think those are the only beings who could go in and out of our dimensions?

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We know Dragons exist because our ancestors often came across their remains.   Just as they did giant cyclops.

Nowadays we call the them dinosaurs and whales (and mastodons)

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19 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

I think it is possible that the dragons are a real creature that is a form of demonic and it goes in and out of our dimensions, and back to its own. 

Ditto for bigfoot, mothman, and others. I'm not 100% behind this theory but I do like contemplating it. 

So anything that isn't human or looks cute and cuddly is automatically demonic. Got it.

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12 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

So why would they be demonic?  Is that because you think those are the only beings who could go in and out of our dimensions?

difficult to answer  that, DR.

I'd like to think that all beings that do go in and out of different dimension sets, all belong to the same "other" world. They all are demonics.

Of course, that may not be true, but it makes life simpler for me lol

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2 hours ago, Bendy Demon said:

So anything that isn't human or looks cute and cuddly is automatically demonic. Got it.

you're acting ridiculous 

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11 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

difficult to answer  that, DR.

I'd like to think that all beings that do go in and out of different dimension sets, all belong to the same "other" world. They all are demonics.

Of course, that may not be true, but it makes life simpler for me lol

I don't agree, nothing is simple and trying to make life simpler in your head can sometimes cause you to miss important information.   Trying to make things simpler at work or home (like staying organized) is different than trying to make things simpler in your understanding of the universe.   

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On 2/16/2024 at 6:42 AM, Desertrat56 said:

So why would they be demonic?  Is that because you think those are the only beings who could go in and out of our dimensions?


In fairness, the word "daemon" (demon, daeva and deva as well) originally had no negative connotations at all, it just meant any spiritual or supernatural being. So, in the bronze age sense, that's technically true. The dichotomy of demons and angels or celestial and cthonic beings came later.

Curiously though, dragons can fall on both ends of that spectrum. In Europe you have demonic dragons like the one St. George fought, Nidhoggr in norse mythology, etc. Ancient Sumeria had Tiamat as well. Heavenly dragons meanwhile appear all over Asia, and you have Quetzalcoatl in mesoamerica. Also, the rainbow serpent in Australia.

Observation. Only the evil/demonic dragons tend to look like, well, the typical fantasy dragon with wings and four legs. Good/divine dragons tend to be more serpentine, which is interesting given the common connection between snakes and evil. (Garden of Eden, Apep in egyptian mythology.) Anyone know what that's all about?

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19 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

difficult to answer  that, DR.

I'd like to think that all beings that do go in and out of different dimension sets, all belong to the same "other" world. They all are demonics.

Of course, that may not be true, but it makes life simpler for me lol

Demonics and dimension sets? Oh brother. 🙄

 

Besides your belief, is there anything you look to as a reference point to make you believe this?

 

19 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

you're acting ridiculous 

Please see bolded above. That is what is ridiculous.

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4 hours ago, Trelane said:

Demonics and dimension sets? Oh brother. 🙄

 

Besides your belief, is there anything you look to as a reference point to make you believe this?

 

Please see bolded above. That is what is ridiculous.


And I'm supposed to converse with you?? lol, fat chance.

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I think different cultures had different conceptions for the mysterious beast mainly encountered in the heroic past.   The Norse called it wurm,  which I think connotates a different physical structure   Ragnar Harry Breeks fought a wurm freed a princess and went on to fame.  An interesting section of his saga tell how he specifically prepared for the confrontation.  He made pants from goat hides, hair side out, covered them in pitch, then rolled in sand on the beach. That would probably be a bad choice to face something with claws, teeth, and a fiery breath.  It might make sense if you knew you were going to face  something that either spit a caustic substance or was covered in one.  That is not what "dragon" calls to mind for most of us, but I guess it did to the Norse listening to Ragnar's Saga a thousand or so years ago.

That brings to mind a question.  One culture in Northern Europe had some kind of vermiform notion of a dragon.  Today, our view is very different when we think of a dragon.    When did this more modern view originate and where?  That might make an interesting linguistic and cultural research study.

Thanks for the topic.;)

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On 2/16/2024 at 9:53 AM, Essan said:

We know Dragons exist because our ancestors often came across their remains.   Just as they did giant cyclops.

Nowadays we call the them dinosaurs and whales (and mastodons)

Adding a side window? | Chevy Astro and GMC Safari Forum

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I believe the fire breathing dragon is a metaphor for mother in laws from our early beginnings. Yes they are horrible, yes they breathe fire.👵😈.

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On 2/15/2024 at 10:44 AM, MrsGently said:

I think actually that 'the dragon' is Earth, or her intelligence or 'spirit' as seen in the metaverse (not facebook - Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuckerbeeeeeeerg!!!!!like Kahn! JamesT.Kirk)

The metaphysics of Excalibur:

 

Also

17 hours ago, Procyon said:

Observation. Only the evil/demonic dragons tend to look like, well, the typical fantasy dragon with wings and four legs. Good/divine dragons tend to be more serpentine, which is interesting given the common connection between snakes and evil. (Garden of Eden, Apep in egyptian mythology.) Anyone know what that's all about?

Welcome aboard. Dragon in English comes from the ancient Greek drakon, big snake, by way of Latin draco. There's always been some confusion between Serpent and Dragon in Europe (what legs does the serpent "lose" in the Genesis story?).

Eden's serpent is a wisdom figure (it's in the text in black letters), not an evil one. Christians "interpreted" the story to make Serpent evil, even Satan himself (Satan also having been reinvented by the Christians).

Not all Christians, though. The "Gnostics," who managed to hang on for a few centuries kept the wisdom tradition and celebrated Serpent as the liberator, almost a "first version" of the Savior. If you look around on the web, you'll find images of crucified snakes.

Gnostocism was a happening religion :devil:. There are days I could convert, if any were still around, lol.

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29 minutes ago, eight bits said:

If you look around on the web, you'll find images of crucified snakes.

You'll see snakes crawling across a cross.

Crucified??

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On 2/16/2024 at 1:31 AM, Still Waters said:

Dragons are probably among the most recognizable and ubiquitous fantasy beasties in history. Across the world, from Europe to China, as well as the Americas and Australia, ancient and completely independent cultures have depicted and described similar creatures in their stories, art, folklore, and mythologies.

This is not true.  Dragons have legs and often wings, and they generally breathe something bad.

Australia has no such creature.  The Rainbow Serpent is a snake, not a dragon.

North America also doesn't have any dragons.  It has sea serpents, snakes, and the occasional man-snake spirit, but no dragons.

We can talk about the snake as being universal; that species exists everywhere but Antarctica after all, so it is... But not the dragons.

Sorry.  This is NOT an archetype, because it isn't universal.

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18 hours ago, Procyon said:


In fairness, the word "daemon" (demon, daeva and deva as well) originally had no negative connotations at all, it just meant any spiritual or supernatural being. So, in the bronze age sense, that's technically true. The dichotomy of demons and angels or celestial and cthonic beings came later.

Curiously though, dragons can fall on both ends of that spectrum. In Europe you have demonic dragons like the one St. George fought, Nidhoggr in norse mythology, etc. Ancient Sumeria had Tiamat as well. Heavenly dragons meanwhile appear all over Asia, and you have Quetzalcoatl in mesoamerica. Also, the rainbow serpent in Australia.

Observation. Only the evil/demonic dragons tend to look like, well, the typical fantasy dragon with wings and four legs. Good/divine dragons tend to be more serpentine, which is interesting given the common connection between snakes and evil. (Garden of Eden, Apep in egyptian mythology.) Anyone know what that's all about?

Yes, "daemon" is different than "demon", I think it is important to know the difference.   You  make a good point.   But the St. George dragon had something to do with christianity, didn't it, which demonized a lot of natural things as well as what we consider imaginary beings.   

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11 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:


And I'm supposed to converse with you?? lol, fat chance.

Oh, Earl grow up. Stop being so sensitive about everything.

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2 hours ago, Abramelin said:

You'll see snakes crawling across a cross.

Crucified??

The_Crucified_Serpent.jpg.a75aff38f964cdb4d71905020224fb1a.jpg

That's copied from an alchemical text. You'll also find the bronze serpent of Moses (Numbers 21), which mainline Christians associate with Jesus through John 3:14.

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5 minutes ago, eight bits said:

The_Crucified_Serpent.jpg.a75aff38f964cdb4d71905020224fb1a.jpg

That's copied from an alchemical text. You'll also find the bronze serpent of Moses (Numbers 21), which mainline Christians associate with Jesus through John 3:14.

Ah, ok.

Never seen that.image.

I was thinking of this:

url(55).thumb.jpg.6528ff828d32999fc68bf4b3113c94a3.jpgurl(113).jpg.69cc42a7a01a7e7daf16191de4aa76dd.jpg

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5 hours ago, Abramelin said:

I was thinking of this:

Yes, there are also a lot of snakes shown "wrapped around" T's, +'s, or poles. Some go back to Moses's snake doll which was somehow mounted on a stick (to be venerated according to God's command - interesting tension there with the same God's first commandment about not worshipping representations of animals).

I suppose it's a judgment call whether the viewer believes that the snake is free to leave (Jesus, after all, was supposedly omnipotent. If so, then nails and ropes are all very interesting, but he was "fixed" to the crux only insofar as he consented.) I think that is an element of the snake-on-a-cross-or-pole iconography: the lack of visible restraints is sometimes part of the contemplative value of the image.

I also think that "unnatural" arrangements of the snake are suggestive of fixture (perhaps as self-sacrifice) as in the medical caduseus (one snake on a pole, or the two entwined snakes of Hermes-Mercury's caduceus).

caduceus-vs-rod-of-asclepius.jpg.12ec413ec0df80fa9b648afc58270c8c.jpg

What happened to Tiresias when he inserted a stick between two snakes entwined in lust is perhaps best left unsaid :)

Edited by eight bits
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12 hours ago, eight bits said:

The metaphysics of Excalibur:

 

Also

Welcome aboard. Dragon in English comes from the ancient Greek drakon, big snake, by way of Latin draco. There's always been some confusion between Serpent and Dragon in Europe (what legs does the serpent "lose" in the Genesis story?).

Eden's serpent is a wisdom figure (it's in the text in black letters), not an evil one. Christians "interpreted" the story to make Serpent evil, even Satan himself (Satan also having been reinvented by the Christians).

Not all Christians, though. The "Gnostics," who managed to hang on for a few centuries kept the wisdom tradition and celebrated Serpent as the liberator, almost a "first version" of the Savior. If you look around on the web, you'll find images of crucified snakes.

Gnostocism was a happening religion :devil:. There are days I could convert, if any were still around, lol.

If you buy into the theory that the Cathars practiced a form of gnosticism, then they lasted a lot longer than just a few centuries. One problem though, didn't the gnostics depict the Demiurge as a snake as well? That simultaneously makes the serpent a symbol of wisdom and ignorance.

In fact, Yaldabaoth kind of throws a monkey wrench into my entire observation of serpentine dragons being good/divine and four-legged winged dragons being evil/demonic. If you consider him a dragon that is, which is a bit of a stretch honestly. Not every mythical figure with reptile parts can be a dragon.

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