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Why America hates its children


Kittens Are Jerks

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10 minutes ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

I opened up the discussion to include things like healthcare as it relates both to children and the population as a whole. That's why we've been discussing a range of social and other issues.

Child poverty and hunger are acceptable in the US because there are children elsewhere in the world who have it worse? What kind of logic is that?

@Paranoid Android doesn't know what he is talking about.   Yes, there is a lot of money in the U.S. federal coffers but that has nothing to do with what anyone actually needs.   We do need money put into child care, there is a huge  need, as well as money put into education in a rational way.  Currently most school districts are upside down when it comes to budgets.   They are top heavy with administration and scarce on money for teachers and the supplies and training the teachers need.  The teachers are required to get a certain amount of additonal training every few years but the cost comes out of their own pocket and they end up  buying their own supplies just to do the  job.  No other job requires the supplies you use for work to come out of your own pocket unless it is your own private business.   

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11 hours ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

A friend of mine in the US (who's a single mother) has a disabled son whose monthly medical costs run approximately $5,000. That's $60,000 per year, in spite of her supposedly great insurance plan. During the day she has a high-powered government job, in the evenings she cleans offices for the much needed extra cash. In Canada, her son's medical costs and prescriptions would cost her $0.

Stories like these are heartbreaking. So are stories about efforts to ban things like free universal school meals. Why would anyone even think about doing something like that? For some kids, the meals at school are the only meals they get.

 

 

It's equally bad on the other end of the age spectrum... I have a number of friends who are disabled/retired and who... basically can't afford to live.

Rents...dear ghods, the rents are so stupidly out of control.

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10 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

I forgot to mention, you all have what, 16 parties, and when the election comes around some of those will support each other, is that how it works in Canada?

Yes, we have a multi-party system, with five (not 16) main political parties: The Liberal Party of Canada, The Conservative Party of Canada, the New Democratic Party, the Bloc Québécois, and The Green Party. Traditionally, only the Liberal and Conservative Parties have governed at the Federal level, but there there are a number of other parties that have served as the Official Opposition or have otherwise been represented in the House of Commons.

I wouldn't go so far as to say some support each other. Rather, they put pressure on the governing party to make policy and legislative change, which sometimes leads to them working together. A recent example of this is the New Democratic Party placing pressure on the Liberal Party to come up with a dental care plan for Canadians, which both parties ended up working on together. 

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1 hour ago, Desertrat56 said:

 but I am not going to donate money to any political group.

Me neither.  Nor would I want to be registered as any political party.  

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15 hours ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

Why America hates its children

Every country has its share of adults who pose a threat to children. But the difference in how America treats its kids goes far beyond the "it takes a village" attitude that prevails in countries like Greece. Virtually every other industrialized nation provides more government aid for their children than America does. Of the 38 countries that belong to the leading Western trade alliance, the US ranks No. 32 in spending on early childhood.

https://www.businessinsider.com/why-america-hates-its-children-parenting-expensive-childcare-schools-kids-2024-1

Some stats: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/child-health.htm

NOTE: It's not my intent to turn this discussion into a US-bashing party. I'm particularly interested in comments from our American members, not just on the subject of childcare, but also on universal healthcare, price controls on the costs of pharmaceuticals, and other social programs. I have seen countless interviews where US citizens decry such programs because... socialism. Are some Americans that brainwashed? I cannot even begin to understand why people are not up in arms about the lack of affordable healthcare, affordable childcare. affordable education, etc. Why is that?


Kittens, throwing money at a problem does not solve the problem. A prime example is the societal crutch known as "welfare". which heavily *increased* ignorance and poverty. 

If you went to the poorest section of say- Chicago, and gave the gangbangers $100,000 each, you know what you'd end up with...? a bunch of rich gangbangers 

Oh, and socialism sucks. any system that promises you "something for nothing" sucks. 

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2 hours ago, Grey Area said:

It’s not really an accident though.  When comparisons are made between the US and other developed nations on state funded children’s services it falls under the overall banner of health and social care, and health care is inextricably linked, from maternity services to vaccinations and community healthcare, and dental services, and as children approach adulthood, sex education, advice and contraception.  In many western nations this is all available for free to any and all.

What is a rather disturbing proposition, and this plays into the NATO argument.  Western nations enjoy a great deal of security under the blanket of a US defence alliance.  That this may be being made possible at the expense of the health of Americas young people is… as I say disturbing.  I wonder what the national bill would be to implement a U.K. style health system in the states?

I read through the entire article, nothing was mentioned in the OP article about healthcare, that's just where this discussion went.... anyway, it's just a minor issue, I still think the broader fact is that America is NOT being hateful towards the children. 

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2 hours ago, Kenemet said:

It's equally bad on the other end of the age spectrum... I have a number of friends who are disabled/retired and who... basically can't afford to live.

Rents...dear ghods, the rents are so stupidly out of control.

They are crazy, aren't they?? good lord. Part of the problem is, people can afford it, or the rents would have to be reduced.

It is a conundrum, that is for sure. In my city, a one bedroom - $2,400. crimminy

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2 hours ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

Child poverty and hunger are acceptable in the US because there are children elsewhere in the world who have it worse? What kind of logic is that?

That's a red herring, and you know it! I didn't say that, I never implied that. If America was #1 in childcare around the world, there would still be poverty and hunger in the US, and we'd just be saying that more needs to be done. I'm suggesting that when you look at worldwide standards, America has it pretty good (so does Australia, where I live) and pointing to areas where they could do better is not proving the claim that "America hates its children". That's the article putting a click-bait spin on the headline and trying to get you to think that America is worse than it actually is. When it comes right down to it, America (and Australia, may as well include my personal situation) are among the most tolerant, peaceful, loving, and equal places on earth for all people, including kids. 

That doesn't mean either of our countries are perfect or nothing needs changing. It's simply an observable fact! Australia/America is not a racist hole populated by Nazi's waiting to murder any person of colour, both our countries take in more legal migrants than basically anywhere else in the world (America by sheer numbers takes in more migrants than anywhere else in the world, while Australia takes more migrants on a per capita basis than anywhere else in the world). With that being the case, claiming America hates children is patently ridiculous. 

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2 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

@Paranoid Android doesn't know what he is talking about.   Yes, there is a lot of money in the U.S. federal coffers but that has nothing to do with what anyone actually needs.   We do need money put into child care, there is a huge  need, as well as money put into education in a rational way.  Currently most school districts are upside down when it comes to budgets.   They are top heavy with administration and scarce on money for teachers and the supplies and training the teachers need.  The teachers are required to get a certain amount of additonal training every few years but the cost comes out of their own pocket and they end up  buying their own supplies just to do the  job.  No other job requires the supplies you use for work to come out of your own pocket unless it is your own private business.   

Then send your kid to a school in North Korea or Sudan and see how they go?!?!?! Just because things aren't perfect doesn't mean that "America hates kids". That's a BS alarmist headline if ever I've seen one. 

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29 minutes ago, Paranoid Android said:

Then send your kid to a school in North Korea or Sudan and see how they go?!?!?! Just because things aren't perfect doesn't mean that "America hates kids". That's a BS alarmist headline if ever I've seen one. 

I really don't understand why you think you're the subject matter expert on America, when you don't live here.  I have two children.  One in the National Honor Society, one that qualifies but isn't old enough.  They will accumulate upwards of $100,000 in student loans, or join the military.  WTF does North Korea or Sudan have to do with not being able to afford to be educated in the number one economy in the world?  You know that is a stupid thing to say.  How about you take your clown self to Afghanistan, and see how you do?  

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39 minutes ago, Paranoid Android said:

Then send your kid to a school in North Korea or Sudan and see how they go?!?!?! Just because things aren't perfect doesn't mean that "America hates kids". That's a BS alarmist headline if ever I've seen one. 

Rich like typing detected.

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43 minutes ago, Paranoid Android said:

That's a red herring, and you know it! I didn't say that, I never implied that. If America was #1 in childcare around the world, there would still be poverty and hunger in the US, and we'd just be saying that more needs to be done. I'm suggesting that when you look at worldwide standards, America has it pretty good (so does Australia, where I live) and pointing to areas where they could do better is not proving the claim that "America hates its children". That's the article putting a click-bait spin on the headline and trying to get you to think that America is worse than it actually is. When it comes right down to it, America (and Australia, may as well include my personal situation) are among the most tolerant, peaceful, loving, and equal places on earth for all people, including kids. 

That doesn't mean either of our countries are perfect or nothing needs changing. It's simply an observable fact! Australia/America is not a racist hole populated by Nazi's waiting to murder any person of colour, both our countries take in more legal migrants than basically anywhere else in the world (America by sheer numbers takes in more migrants than anywhere else in the world, while Australia takes more migrants on a per capita basis than anywhere else in the world). With that being the case, claiming America hates children is patently ridiculous. 

You're right. America does care about the children. As long as they are still in the womb. After the child is born, you're on your own. 

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10 minutes ago, Agent0range said:

I really don't understand why you think you're the subject matter expert on America, when you don't live here.  I have two children.  One in the National Honor Society, one that qualifies but isn't old enough.  They will accumulate upwards of $100,000 in student loans, or join the military.  WTF does North Korea or Sudan have to do with not being able to afford to be educated in the number one economy in the world?  You know that is a stupid thing to say.  How about you take your clown self to Afghanistan, and see how you do?  

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1 hour ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

They are crazy, aren't they?? good lord. Part of the problem is, people can afford it, or the rents would have to be reduced.

It is a conundrum, that is for sure. In my city, a one bedroom - $2,400. crimminy

Egads!

Several years ago, when I saw the direction rents were going, we bought a house for our daughter.  It's modest, in a modest neighborhood and the mortgage is a mere $800/month (in south Dallas.)  I'm glad we did.  Our credit line is good and we got decent financing.  My brother had done the same thing for his son a decade ago, and I saw the wisdom of it.

But very very few can afford to do this and I think it's truly horrible.  People should be able to afford the basic necessities.  Nobody needs a salary in the billions of dollars each year (unless we've hit inflation and you need a truckload of money for a loaf or bread.)

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11 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

Egads!

Several years ago, when I saw the direction rents were going, we bought a house for our daughter.  It's modest, in a modest neighborhood and the mortgage is a mere $800/month (in south Dallas.)  I'm glad we did.  Our credit line is good and we got decent financing.  My brother had done the same thing for his son a decade ago, and I saw the wisdom of it.

But very very few can afford to do this and I think it's truly horrible.  People should be able to afford the basic necessities.  Nobody needs a salary in the billions of dollars each year (unless we've hit inflation and you need a truckload of money for a loaf or bread.)

And I just signed a contract to pay 1,700.00 a month in rent.

I might as well burn that ****ing money.

 

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1 hour ago, Agent0range said:

I really don't understand why you think you're the subject matter expert on America, when you don't live here.  I have two children.  One in the National Honor Society, one that qualifies but isn't old enough.  They will accumulate upwards of $100,000 in student loans, or join the military.  WTF does North Korea or Sudan have to do with not being able to afford to be educated in the number one economy in the world?  You know that is a stupid thing to say. 

If America hates its children, what do North Koreans or Sudanese think of their kids? Surely with both countries having objectively worse education systems than America these people positively HATE their kids (I mean, if Americans hate kids based on the system you have, then how much more do these people hate their kids)! But I bet you'll never go and tell a Sudanese that they hate their children, or a Rwandan kid, or a Pakistani kid living on less than $1 a day.... nah, it's only the Americans who HATE their own children! 

If you can't see the point I'm making you're not looking hard enough :tu: 

 

1 hour ago, Agent0range said:

How about you take your clown self to Afghanistan, and see how you do?  

I'm not the one complaining how bad my country is. I love Australia, and I suspect I would love America if I moved there. I suspect there are many First World democracies I would love to live in (UK, I'd love to live there too). But to reiterate, I'm not claiming I live in a hole where everyone hates the children, that would be.... *checks thread*.... you guys on the left. I know just how bad life is in Afghanistan, I know just how good you guys have it in the US just as I have it good in Australia. I don't need to go to any place to know how awesome Australia and America are. But if you seriously think America hates its own children then go somewhere where you think the people don't hate their kids, but wherever you choose will almost certainly be a downgrade from where you are now! 

Edited by Paranoid Android
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1 hour ago, Hankenhunter said:

Rich like typing detected.

I don't know what "rich-like" means. 

 

1 hour ago, Hankenhunter said:

You're right. America does care about the children. As long as they are still in the womb. After the child is born, you're on your own. 

:lol: I'll pay that one, that's hilarious :lol: 

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13 hours ago, OverSword said:

The way our government runs the result of a single payer model would be inferior care for the people while the insurance carriers, the pharmaceutical companies, the doctors, and the hospitals made record profits all while our federal taxes increase by at least 20%.  It would be a politicians wet dream come true to be on the committee in charge of that as it would be our biggest budget item and run like complete ****.

They're making record profits now and only the top few can afford it.

It's going to be extremely difficult to spend more on health care than we spend on war.

Doug

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11 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

They are crazy, aren't they?? good lord. Part of the problem is, people can afford it, or the rents would have to be reduced.

It is a conundrum, that is for sure. In my city, a one bedroom - $2,400. crimminy

No, there is something else going on, at least in my city.   Derelict apartment buildings with fairly low rents are being bought by big investment corporations, who come in and null everyone's lease evicting everyone, then slapping a coat of paint on the building and raising the rent 30%.  They can't keep tennents so eventually the building are vacant and the investors walk away leaving a mess for the city, county and state to clean up.   That creates more homeless or people living in single family dwellings with other families so that the rent can be paid and maybe there is enough left for food.   Then they get caught and evicted because the lease doesn't allow more than one family.   It is not that people are being able to pay the rents, it is that they have to choose between a roof over their heads and food.

And in 2021 something went hay wire and every rental went up 30%, including houses owned by local landlords.   My daughter lives in an apartment with good landlords that did not do that but they do raise the rent 50 to 75 dollars every year.  She is paying almost 1200 a  month for a 900 sq foot apartment.   But her landlords fix everything as soon as she calls because they know if they don't it will cost more money to fix it later and find a new tenant.

Edited by Desertrat56
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13 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

@Paranoid Android doesn't know what he is talking about.   Yes, there is a lot of money in the U.S. federal coffers but that has nothing to do with what anyone actually needs.   We do need money put into child care, there is a huge  need, as well as money put into education in a rational way.  Currently most school districts are upside down when it comes to budgets.   They are top heavy with administration and scarce on money for teachers and the supplies and training the teachers need.  The teachers are required to get a certain amount of additonal training every few years but the cost comes out of their own pocket and they end up  buying their own supplies just to do the  job.  No other job requires the supplies you use for work to come out of your own pocket unless it is your own private business.   

That is a result of government bureaucracy and mismanagement.  Most school districts are broke not because there isn't enough money floating around, it is because it is typically funding lavish teacher retirement pensions and scores of administrators.  Schools spend upwards of $20k/yr per student with poor results.  Giving them more money isn't the answer.  Schools need some common sense leadership, breaking teachers unions, parental accountability, and more efficient use of funds. 

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13 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

The only way single payer medical care would work in this country is if we got rid of all the private insurance companies.   We need to get them corraled and under control, right now they have cart blanch to charge without service.   And if you are on medicare you are required to get a private insurance premium for drugs, but they sell more than that claiming you get better service, though it isn't true.  The only people who don't have to do that are in poverty and depending on the state they are in qualify for medicaid.   I am really ticked right now because I paid in to the medicare system since the mid 70's and now I have to pay 175.00 a month to social security for my Part B, which is the doctors and specialists (the part I don't pay for is hospital charges, and that covers up to 80% of charges, but usually a lot less).   Then I have to sign up for a Part D with a private insurance company or I get a fine for the rest of my life based on the number of months I was without coverage, in my case those months were because Social security did not get the paper work filled out in a timely manner.    It is a jacked system because it caters to corporations instead of humans.

I would like to apologise to anyone who tried to read this for the lack of commas and paragraphs.   

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12 hours ago, Paranoid Android said:

That's a red herring, and you know it! I didn't say that, I never implied that. If America was #1 in childcare around the world, there would still be poverty and hunger in the US, and we'd just be saying that more needs to be done. I'm suggesting that when you look at worldwide standards, America has it pretty good (so does Australia, where I live) and pointing to areas where they could do better is not proving the claim that "America hates its children". That's the article putting a click-bait spin on the headline and trying to get you to think that America is worse than it actually is. When it comes right down to it, America (and Australia, may as well include my personal situation) are among the most tolerant, peaceful, loving, and equal places on earth for all people, including kids. 

The title of the article, is pretty much moot to this discussion. Not sure why you're obsessing over it. 

As for red herrings:

You've read the entire article, so you should be clear on what some of the primary issues and concerns are, so I'll not repeat them. What I will repeat, however, is that compared to other developed nations, the US consistently ranks near or at the bottom of the list on a number of issues when it comes to its children. Indeed, it's child-oriented policies have been described as Dickensian compared to other industrialized nations.

Consistently pointing to the fact that American kids have it better than other children in the world, specifically under-developed and/or poorer nations, is not a legitimate comparison. The fact of the matter is that the US has both the money and capability to better support and provide for its children, yet it chooses not to. It's not that it can't, it's that it won't.

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13 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:


Kittens, throwing money at a problem does not solve the problem. A prime example is the societal crutch known as "welfare". which heavily *increased* ignorance and poverty. 

If you went to the poorest section of say- Chicago, and gave the gangbangers $100,000 each, you know what you'd end up with...? a bunch of rich gangbangers 

Oh, and socialism sucks. any system that promises you "something for nothing" sucks. 

It's not about 'throwing' money, it's about investing it. Money invested wisely can create positive change and achieve goals. An example of this would be an investment in retaining school teachers or in upgrading school infrastructures.

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1 minute ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

It's not about 'throwing' money, it's about investing it. Money invested wisely can create positive change and achieve goals. An example of this would be an investment in retaining school teachers or in upgrading school infrastructures.

That's the problem though... government rarely "invests wisely".  As has been noted, many of the problems are due to over regulation, bureaucracy, self-dealing...  not too mention culture.

Usually, the best results are when we reduce the roll of government and allow people to address problems locally on a smaller scale without the bureaucratic oversight and management of funds.  This is why churches, private schools, etc are often way more successful at addressing community needs than the government.  They are closer to the problem...

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2 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

They're making record profits now and only the top few can afford it.

It's going to be extremely difficult to spend more on health care than we spend on war.

Doug

Quote

 In 2022, 92.1 percent of people, or 304.0 million, had health insurance at some point during the year, representing an increase in the insured rate and number of insured from 2021 (91.7 percent or 300.9 million).

https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2023/demo/p60-281.html#:~:text=Highlights,91.7 percent or 300.9 million).

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