Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -

A landmark Finnish study is changing how we approach trans-kids


DieChecker

Recommended Posts

A landmark Finnish study is changing how we approach trans-kids

https://nypost.com/2024/02/24/opinion/a-finnish-study-is-changing-how-we-approach-trans-kids/

Quote

A major new study out of Finland found that providing cross-sex hormones and gender-transition surgeries to adolescents and young adults didn’t appear to have any significant effect on suicide deaths.

Please move, if more appropriate section, or close, if posted somewhere else already.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

So basically - trans-kids suicide at greater rates than non-trans-kids but it has nothing to do with the drugs. 
Well, that’s reassuring. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

So basically - trans-kids suicide at greater rates than non-trans-kids but it has nothing to do with the drugs. 
Well, that’s reassuring. 

That wasn't my understanding of the piece, at all.  It was just providing data that discredits the claim that supplying these drugs and other permanent interventions is not improving the rate of suicide in this group.  It's data.  It shouldn't be seen as biased unless one can prove the methodology was biased.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, DieChecker said:

A landmark Finnish study is changing how we approach trans-kids

https://nypost.com/2024/02/24/opinion/a-finnish-study-is-changing-how-we-approach-trans-kids/

Please move, if more appropriate section, or close, if posted somewhere else already.

NY Post tends to be heavily biased, and this is an op-ed.  Luckily, THIS time the original article was linked https://mentalhealth.bmj.com/content/27/1/e300940.full (many times the links are to other NYP articles; this time we got the goods instead.)

From the article, though "Conclusions: Clinical gender dysphoria does not appear to be predictive of all-cause nor suicide mortality when psychiatric treatment history is accounted for"

It seems to rule out gender dysphoria as a primary cause of suicide in trans teens who are undergoing treatment.  But it suggests that without treatment the trend in suicide is slightly higher in trans teens... and this is something that we've said before.

The op-ed article is wrong; teens do NOT get surgeries.  Hormones, yes.  Surgery only if there's something wrong.  Gender reassigning surgery happens only after age 18.

Edited by Kenemet
  • Like 4
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Basically trans kids, more often then general population, are suffering mental health issues. Treating them for being "trans", by escalating a gender change, shows (in this study) no preventative function in preventing self damage/suicide. Treating underlying mental issues is rather what should be done.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

NY Post tends to be heavily biased, and this is an op-ed.  Luckily, THIS time the original article was linked https://mentalhealth.bmj.com/content/27/1/e300940.full 

From the study link above.

Quote

In light of our findings, experiencing GD significant enough to seek GR appears to not be associated with increased suicide mortality, but suicides appear to be explained by psychiatric morbidities.

So, gender disphoria alone showed as a zero factor, but gender disphoria along with sever psychiatric issues, did show as significant. Performing gender reassignment alone doesn’t prevent suicide. Has zero affect on the rate.

Regardless this fad has been embraced, and I dont think it will trail off anytime soon. Maybe in 10 years. Probably in the 2050s we'll look back at the Trans Twenties, and chuckle.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm starting to wonder if all the hormones, and drugs being recycled back into the water systems may be one of the causes of this obvious uptick in Trans kids. It might even start in the womb.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, Hankenhunter said:

I'm starting to wonder if all the hormones, and drugs being recycled back into the water systems may be one of the causes of this obvious uptick in Trans kids. It might even start in the womb.

I'd say that's a very real possibility. I've read before that steroids, estrogens, and other biological chemicals are not cleared out by most water reclamation technologies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, DieChecker said:

From the study link above.

So, gender disphoria alone showed as a zero factor, but gender disphoria along with sever psychiatric issues, did show as significant. Performing gender reassignment alone doesn’t prevent suicide. Has zero affect on the rate.

Regardless this fad has been embraced, and I dont think it will trail off anytime soon. Maybe in 10 years. Probably in the 2050s we'll look back at the Trans Twenties, and chuckle.

It's not a fad.  It's not new.  The first transgender person I met was an adult (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Amanda_Salmonson) sometime in the mid 1980's.  I've met a number of trans people since then (including the delightful https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_James_Adams -- you meet a lot of interesting people if you go to science fiction and comic book conventions)... and even in these trans-friendly communities I don't see a lot of people trying to be trans.  I do occasionally see trans cosplay (costuming), but that's similar to drag where they dress up for a few hours and then go back to their usual gender.

So, nope.  Nobody's going to "look back and chuckle."  If anything, I hope that it leads to more gender-neutral treatment of people (and children in particular.)

  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, DieChecker said:

 

Regardless this fad has been embraced, and I dont think it will trail off anytime soon. Maybe in 10 years. Probably in the 2050s we'll look back at the Trans Twenties, and chuckle.

 

You do know that there's a huge transgender history going back thousands of years? 

Transgender and same sex relationships only became taboo with evolving versions of religion. Early languages don't have designation for gender by large. Eunuchs were considered their own form of gender. They weren't considered men, nor women.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Kenemet said:

It's not a fad.  It's not new.  The first transgender person I met was an adult (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Amanda_Salmonson) sometime in the mid 1980's.  I've met a number of trans people since then (including the delightful https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_James_Adams -- you meet a lot of interesting people if you go to science fiction and comic book conventions)... and even in these trans-friendly communities I don't see a lot of people trying to be trans.  I do occasionally see trans cosplay (costuming), but that's similar to drag where they dress up for a few hours and then go back to their usual gender.

So, nope.  Nobody's going to "look back and chuckle."  If anything, I hope that it leads to more gender-neutral treatment of people (and children in particular.)

It's a fad. Sure there has been many historic examples, but the current surge isn't misidentified people coming forward. Those people have always been slowly coming forward.

It's troubled kids seeking an outlet. And this politically correct issue seems like it could bring them some kind of open acceptance, and help. To a troubled kid, any attention is good attention.

They've shown the surge in people coming out trans (per capita) is way higher in crowded urban environments, and poverty environments. If it was genetic/biological it would be much more even across economic, and geographical, lines.

People used to say, "Goth is who I am!". But you don't see as many as you used to. Because it was a fad. Sure, there are goth still around, but it boomed at one point in the '70s, and '80s, then trailed off into a fading subculture.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, psyche101 said:

You do know that there's a huge transgender history going back thousands of years? 

Transgender and same sex relationships only became taboo with evolving versions of religion. Early languages don't have designation for gender by large. Eunuchs were considered their own form of gender. They weren't considered men, nor women.

Meh. There's always been transgendered people, and hermaphrodites, and such, but studies have shown per capita ratios rising rapidly in poor urban environments. Especially on the US east coast. 

The greater majority of people currently being labeled as trans are young people with very serious existing mental issues, or currently living a hard existence, and in such cases even harmful attention seems like good attention to them. As these kids age, they'll meld back into their previous social structure. Hopefully with no long lasting medical issues. And hopefully not to the detriment of any actual serious mental issues.

I won't go into the sports arguement as it's even more a fad, and such a tiny number of people, it should be ignored.

Edited by DieChecker
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 
6 hours ago, DieChecker said:

They've shown the surge in people coming out trans (per capita) is way higher in crowded urban environments, and poverty environments. If it was genetic/biological it would be much more even across economic, and geographical, lines.

Only if there was no difference between urban environments and non-urban environments and there were equal pressures across economic lines, something I don't see a lot of evidence for.  We already went through this with gay people, that was supposedly a 'fad' and surge too for a while.  The 'surge' argument in both cases overlooks the fact that there are/were good reasons for gay or trans people to not let that fact be known.  So when they becomes more accepted, is the 'surge' just from it being a 'fad' like 'goth' or is it because these are just people who have always been gay/trans but keep that closeted because of social pressures (like being dismissed as a 'fad'...)?  Probably a mix I'd argue.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Treating them for being "trans", by escalating a gender change, shows (in this study) no preventative function in preventing self damage/suicide. Treating underlying mental issues is rather what should be done.

I don't think you should conclude 'what should be done' based on this, suicide reduction is not the only measure of whether 'escalating a gender change' is worthwhile or not.  If it helps with mental health issues then it may be worthwhile. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Hankenhunter said:

I'm starting to wonder if all the hormones, and drugs being recycled back into the water systems may be one of the causes of this obvious uptick in Trans kids. It might even start in the womb.

Nope.  There've been transgender people all over the world ever since recorded history.  Just look at the Jewish definition of genders (spoiler alert: there's 8.)

It looks like "more kids are having this" simply because of the information access on the Internet.  it's still a very tiny proportion of the population.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

Nope.  There've been transgender people all over the world ever since recorded history.  Just look at the Jewish definition of genders (spoiler alert: there's 8.)

It looks like "more kids are having this" simply because of the information access on the Internet.  it's still a very tiny proportion of the population.

More vocal and more media access doesn't mean more people.

American Evangelicals actually think they are a majority when they are only about 12 percent of the population.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Meh. There's always been transgendered people, and hermaphrodites, and such, but studies have shown per capita ratios rising rapidly in poor urban environments. Especially on the US east coast. 

Yet if you go to somewhere like Thailand it's been prolific for a very long time. It's just part of the culture.

15 hours ago, DieChecker said:

The greater majority of people currently being labeled as trans are young people with very serious existing mental issues, or currently living a hard existence, and in such cases even harmful attention seems like good attention to them. As these kids age, they'll meld back into their previous social structure. Hopefully with no long lasting medical issues. And hopefully not to the detriment of any actual serious mental issues.

It's a bold statement to simply state it's a mental issue. The same was said about the gay community and today it's not. 

It sounds like you are saying there is no such thing as a genuine case. I may be misinterpreting you so could you clarify..

15 hours ago, DieChecker said:

I won't go into the sports arguement as it's even more a fad, and such a tiny number of people, it should be ignored.

That's good. The sports argument is a joke. Actual athlete's opinions are largely ignored to push a biased opinion. The clowns screaming about it mostly don't even watch sport. 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/26/2024 at 4:29 PM, psyche101 said:

Yet if you go to somewhere like Thailand it's been prolific for a very long time. It's just part of the culture.

Exactly... Culture... Not genetics.

More like a choice, and not an attribute.

Quote

It's a bold statement to simply state it's a mental issue. The same was said about the gay community and today it's not.

Read the linked study. They found zero (or almost zero) correlation with transitioning, as related to suicide rate. But a high correlation when including other mental health issues that require treatment.

Quote

It sounds like you are saying there is no such thing as a genuine case. I may be misinterpreting you so could you clarify..

Sure there is. And many came out recently (last 5 years?).

There are also many cases that are going on due to mental infirmity, a many because young people think it's "cool".

Lots of kids today... and I have a 16 year old daughter, and a 12 year old son... think it is cool to play around with the idea. Which I think is fine. It's when they're experimenting with it in public, at school, and a counselor trys to convince them they need to go on blockers, and get therapy, and hide that from their parents... THAT is the actual problem going on.

I do know several people personally who identified as gay, or bisexual, decades ago, who later went CIS and married and raised kids. It's natural to try thinks out... experiment. That's not to say there's no gay people, but that IMHO it's been oversold as to the scale of people involved. Some will say that's homiphobic, but I'd just say it's my opinion based on my experiences with gays, and former gays.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/26/2024 at 6:57 AM, Liquid Gardens said:

I don't think you should conclude 'what should be done' based on this, suicide reduction is not the only measure of whether 'escalating a gender change' is worthwhile or not.  If it helps with mental health issues then it may be worthwhile. 

Sure. It should be an option. But it will need to be considered if the possible long term physical issues, many irreparable, are worth those mental health benefits.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Exactly... Culture... Not genetics.

More like a choice, and not an attribute.

The point is it's not a fad, it's global and completely acceptable in other cultures. America is supposed to be multicultural so it seems bigoted to exclude a specific culture. It's similar to race and religion. 

Chicken or the egg? Can you be sure genetics didn't influence culture? 

58 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Read the linked study. They found zero (or almost zero) correlation with transitioning, as related to suicide rate. But a high correlation when including other mental health issues that require treatment.

I'd misinterpreted your statement l think. I was of the impression you were saying that being trans is a mental issue, not trans people can and do have a high rate of mental issues. My mistake. 

58 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Sure there is. And many came out recently (last 5 years?).

:tu:

thanks. All clear. 

58 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

There are also many cases that are going on due to mental infirmity, a many because young people think it's "cool".

I can't help but think conservative hysteria adds to it though. Doing something you shouldn't is attractive to many youths especially going through a rebellious stage. Which most I think do. Attacking the community through sports and such I feel is likely to also be amplifying the situation. Still, considering other cultures where transgender is common might only be showing that it's a more prevalent thought for more people than traditional Christian orientated communities would ever consider. 

58 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Lots of kids today... and I have a 16 year old daughter, and a 12 year old son... think it is cool to play around with the idea. Which I think is fine. It's when they're experimenting with it in public, at school, and a counselor trys to convince them they need to go on blockers, and get therapy, and hide that from their parents... THAT is the actual problem going on.

Do you honestly feel that's a likely threat? To put some perspective on things you are telling me that killing 120,000 people a year is ok, but a handful of isolated incidents, that have gone public because they are unusual circumstances are an actual threat? What percentage of school teachers do you think might go that path overall? I strongly suspect it would be far less than 0.1% but generates more concern amongst the conservative community. In fact would it be more likely that a teacher would talk a child into a transgender lifestyle or more likely to die of a school shooting?

When teachers are genuinely protecting a child from known violence, I think that would mitigate the above situation. That actually seems more likely considering domestic violence figures than a bent teacher with a transgender agenda. 

58 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I do know several people personally who identified as gay, or bisexual, decades ago, who later went CIS and married and raised kids. It's natural to try thinks out... experiment. That's not to say there's no gay people, but that IMHO it's been oversold as to the scale of people involved. Some will say that's homiphobic, but I'd just say it's my opinion based on my experiences with gays, and former gays.

Sure, and you are probably right. If I think about the amount of people I have met in my life, the number who are gay comprises a very small number. I have a nephew I rarely see because he lives a distance from me, and a drummer who became a very close friend (RIP) but most people I meet are straight. Personally that matches my life experience. 

Edited by psyche101
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, psyche101 said:

The point is it's not a fad, it's global and completely acceptable in other cultures. America is supposed to be multicultural so it seems bigoted to exclude a specific culture. It's similar to race and religion. 

Chicken or the egg? Can you be sure genetics didn't influence culture? 

Just because something is common in one culture doesn't mean that is universally true. Fads can exist that elevate a statistic of the population, which then fades away.

If Thailand wants to be OK with their schools transitioning the kids without parental concent, that's up to them.

Thailand also probably has different social dynamics, and different heathcare dynamics, that could explain why the culture is different. 

Quote

I can't help but think conservative hysteria adds to it though.

Perhaps. But from what I've come to understand it's not hysteria, it is a fad driven by the approval of the public school system. 

Quote

Still, considering other cultures where transgender is common might only be showing that it's a more prevalent thought for more people than traditional Christian orientated communities would ever consider.

That's true, but if you see a quick rise in a statistic like this has, there's usually a reason behind it. 

And it is cultural. The culture of the political Left. Many on the left aren't simply non-religious, but actively militant atheists. Who have an agenda...

Quote

Do you honestly feel that's a likely threat? To put some perspective on things you are telling me that killing 120,000 people a year is ok, but a handful of isolated incidents, that have gone public because they are unusual circumstances are an actual threat?

Well, just to correct you a bit, it was like 20,000 murders, not 120,000. That number included everyone shot... injured, murdered, or suicide.

And secondly, it's not isolated incidents. It's a public school system based movement. Teachers are overwhelmingly left, or far left. As are their unions, which unite them across huge swaths of territories. Often of multi-state size. These people have decided aiding kids to transition is something they support. 

So its endemic to the entire public school system. And youll see top level union lawyers defending this practice and of not informing parents who might interfer.

its a very real thing going on.

Quote

What percentage of school teachers do you think might go that path overall? I strongly suspect it would be far less than 0.1% but generates more concern amongst the conservative community. In fact would it be more likely that a teacher would talk a child into a transgender lifestyle or more likely to die of a school shooting?

Id probably guess only 10% are active supporters of transitioning students without parental approval. Its very common. I think its actually required to council the student to start the process in some places. California, i think. If the teacher doesn't recommend, or enciurage, the student, they can be punished by the local school officials. Thats why we're seeing lawsuits a lot in California. 

My guess is just based on what I've heard from Christian parents with kids in public schools, and what I've read here and there. 

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to be very common for schools to support trans treatments with no approval.

Quote

When teachers are genuinely protecting a child from known violence, I think that would mitigate the above situation. That actually seems more likely considering domestic violence figures than a bent teacher with a transgender agenda.

I think if that was the case, we'd not be seeing so many cases, all across the nation,  and the Left fighting back so strongly.

Kids who are honestly having abuse, or depression, or other mental health emergencies... 100% the school should act. But in the case of a kid acting "trans" to get attention, the school should just let them be, without recommending chemicals, or physical surgeries. And WHATEVER aid they decide to try, they 100% need to include the parents. 

Kids in the US, under 18, can't get their ears pierced without a parental approval, but today schools are basically handing out puberty blockers without parental concent.

Quote

Sure, and you are probably right. If I think about the amount of people I have met in my life, the number who are gay comprises a very small number. I have a nephew I rarely see because he lives a distance from me, and a drummer who became a very close friend (RIP) but most people I meet are straight. Personally that matches my life experience.

Back like 20 years ago it was often put out that gays were 5%, to 10%, of the population, and now we know it's more like 2%. And roughly the same for trans people, and 3% claiming to be bisexual. 

I think the current "explosion" of trans youths (and bisexual youths) will fade as time goes by. UNLESS the next generation also embraces these choices/fads. Then the percentages would remain flat.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/25/2024 at 9:14 PM, Hankenhunter said:

I'm starting to wonder if all the hormones, and drugs being recycled back into the water systems may be one of the causes of this obvious uptick in Trans kids. It might even start in the womb.

A well founded suspicion.  "Kids these days", as they say, however I am not so old that I cannot recall the typical characteristics of male students as I grew up.  I can contrast them with the students attending my kids' schools, and remark on the preponderance of effeminate boys.  The pharmaceutical industry is happy to throw water on the association, even with puffy non-responses

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.