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Speech at the ICJ Hearings


Horta

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This is quite a good speech by Ralph Wilde on behalf of the League of Arab States at the ICJ hearings regarding the (il)legality of the Israeli occupation of Palestinian Territories. In reality Israel has been ignoring international law since 1948.

Although brief and succinct, it really gives some context to the whole thing from a legal perspective and explains why the formation of Israel itself was not only contrary to international law, but also denied Palestinians their most basic human rights (although it could have gone back even further for context).. Palestinians had about as much say in their future as the American Indians or Australian Aborigines and there is a danger of them heading to the same oblivion.

It's at the point now where Israel should no longer exist. They should be disarmed and disbanded, their leaders should front the Hague and then a one state solution implemented, which seems the only answer. As opposed to now, a non racist state where all citizens have equal rights regardless of ethnicity, where you can hold only one passport and where the Palestinian refugees are welcomed back and recompensed. This will mean an end to the ethno supremacy and racial discrimination that Israel is now based on, but that's a good thing. It would need close monitoring by the UN no doubt, possibly with a peace keeping force for a while. The only part places like the US and UK should play in this process is to pay most of the reparations. Apart from that they should keep them as far away as possible.

After the ICJ ruling that Israel is "plausibly" (ie "reasonably" or "probably"committing genocide which now means they are investigating the claim officially, along with issuing directives that Israel has utterly ignored, along with all manner of countries taking Israel to the world courts for other humanitarian reasons, it isn't looking good.

The world realised what the so called "rules based order" of the west was long ago (aka we make the rules, you follow the orders) and are gradually turning away. Israel really should be a pariah state that the world boycotts similar to South Africa under apartheid. It is in reality just another race based western colonial project and the world is seeing through it.

It's a strange world where some people recoil at the thought of a nation with equal rights for all citizens (which is the definition of a one state solution) in preference to one based ethno/religious and racist supremacy and discrimination, but surely they are fast becoming dinosaurs.

 

 

Edited by Horta
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Well Al, I didn't sat my answer was likely to happen any time soon. Only that it should happen. It will happen one day though, as the US slides further down the pecking order it's little "mini me" racist settler colony will become quite vulnerable. They (US) won't need to slide into the obscurity level of the UK  for this to happen or anything, just far enough. This is gathering pace, give it another decade or so. The world (or most of them) have had enough. Lots of bloodshed in the meantime, but Israel has sealed its fate.

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1 hour ago, Horta said:

Well Al, I didn't sat my answer was likely to happen any time soon. Only that it should happen. It will happen one day though, as the US slides further down the pecking order it's little "mini me" racist settler colony will become quite vulnerable. They (US) won't need to slide into the obscurity level of the UK  for this to happen or anything, just far enough. This is gathering pace, give it another decade or so. The world (or most of them) have had enough. Lots of bloodshed in the meantime, but Israel has sealed its fate.

LOL, Israel has its fate sealed? You forget that the ICJ is essentially utterly toothless, and has been since its founding during the League of Nations .  It has no legal enforcement powers.  I'd say that the ICJ has just utterly discredited itself. 

The USA has not been sliding down the international pecking order at all.  Russia is being thrashed in Ukraine, having lost in excess of 400,000 men and nearly a trillion dollars worth of military equipment. Similarly China's economy is tanking hard, and its military is as much of a corrupt joke as Russia's, if not worse.  By comparison, the US economy is doing quite well, and is heading into a new military buildup phase, as are those of the NATO nations.  

As for Israel being a "racist settler colony", not at all.  There has been continuous Jewish settlement in Israel for thousands of years before Islam even existed.  Even the Ottomans acknowledged the Jews, whom they (ironically) called Palestinians at the time.  For quite a while the fighting between the Jews and Muslims was called the Palestinian/Arab Conflict.  So in fact the Jews were the REAL Palestinians all along, while the people you are calling Palestinian were nomadic Arab populations who arrived to work for Jewish money as the infrastructure of Israel was built, starting  in the 1920s.  As for the settled Arab populations who owned land in Israel, there is a large body of them who are voluntary citizens and passport holders of Israel, whom nobody ever wants to talk about.  The Romans and the Mongols couldn't remove the Jews, and the Arabs have failed for over a thousand years to do likewise, even when they held the whip hand over the Jews, and it wasn't due to compassion.

As for the dismantling of Israel, you do realize they are the most powerful military in the Middle East, with no near rivals or peers in the region?  Israel could be in Cairo, Damascus and Amman within 6 days and never even need to consider the use of its nuclear arsenal.  NATO might be able to take out Israel, but no regional power in the Middle East has any chance, not even all of them together, and if they did, then they would be nuked.  In short, Israel isn't going anywhere, and you are dreaming.  I would never pretend that Israel is blameless or perfect, but I will side with them EVERY TIME over the terror states of Fatah and Hamas, or the Syrians, Egyptians Jordanians etc.

Also, I don't understand how you could be pro-Muslim unless you are a Muslim.  Islam stands utterly contrary to notions of individual freedom of conscience, freedom of religions, personal liberty, women's rights, and far too many Islamic countries still have no laws against slavery or never enforce them.  Islamic nations are human rights disasters, and economic basket cases, were it not for oil, which the World Economy is removing its dependence on.  Islam is less a religion than it is a far right ideology.

Edited by Alchopwn
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5 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

LOL, Israel has its fate sealed? You forget that the ICJ is essentially utterly toothless, and has been since its founding during the League of Nations .  It has no legal enforcement powers.  I'd say that the ICJ has just utterly discredited itself. 

It's true that the west made these institutions not so much for justice, but to punish those it doesn't like, for its own benefit. That's the amazing thing, it has now turned around and bitten them on the ****. Such a high profile hearing and findings of this type would have been unthinkable once. Lucky Trump isn't in power or he would be sanctioning all the justices (as he did with ICC investigators). Along with immense and outspoken support from a fast rising global south it's another indicator of US becoming more isolated and of western decline.

As they say every dog has its day. This episode won't be forgotten.

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The USA has not been sliding down the international pecking order at all.  Russia is being thrashed in Ukraine, having lost in excess of 400,000 men and nearly a trillion dollars worth of military equipment. Similarly China's economy is tanking hard, and its military is as much of a corrupt joke as Russia's, if not worse.  By comparison, the US economy is doing quite well, and is heading into a new military buildup phase, as are those of the NATO nations.   

Straight from the State Dept. that lot. China is the world's industrial superpower. Neither Europe nor the US can decouple from them (as much as they might like to). Forcing US financial system on the world is all that keeps them near the top (China has been at the top for some time) but it is slowly being replaced. Countries have had enough of worrying about sanctions should someone fart in church or something so alternatives are slowly being put in place.

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As for Israel being a "racist settler colony", not at all.  There has been continuous Jewish settlement in Israel for thousands of years before Islam even existed.

No one ever had a problem with indigenous Palestinians (be they Christians, Jews or Muslims). It's the Zionist Jewish settlers mostly from Europe (but basically everywhere else but Palestine) that moved in and displaced/slaughtered the indigenous population that were/are the problem. The UN has a strict definition of the word "indigenous" as it pertains to humanitarian law. You should look it up.

There were humans living in the levant going back further than that though (from early human migration). Does that mean I, or any non African origin person can go back and claim the place? Why don't we get the same right?

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As for the dismantling of Israel, you do realize they are the most powerful military in the Middle East, with no near rivals or peers in the region?  

Only because of the US. Even then times have changed, now they won't beat the Lebanese militants without US intervention. Iran would probably have already tried to obliterate them only for the US. I'm hoping it won't get to that, especially as it involves a rogue terrorist state (Israel) with nukes.

There are huge calls now for a "two state" solution. If that ever happens Israel won't last five years and unfortunately much of the world will simply look the other way after this atrocity.

I see it both crumbling from within and eventually going more the way South Africa did also from the world mounting outside pressure. That's my hope, any other way will be very ugly. It is going to happen though. They have lost most of the world's support.

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Also, I don't understand how you could be pro-Muslim unless you are a Muslim.  Islam stands utterly contrary to notions of individual freedom of conscience, freedom of religions, personal liberty, women's rights, and far too many Islamic countries still have no laws against slavery or never enforce them.  Islamic nations are human rights disasters, and economic basket cases, were it not for oil, which the World Economy is removing its dependence on.  Islam is less a religion than it is a far right ideology.

I'm not pro muslim. As an atheist I don't really care about religion. It's strange that most Zionists are also atheist/secular...yet they all seem to believe that god gave them Palestine lol.

The real problem with Islamic countries is that the west keeps overthrowing their govts, causes civil wars, bombs or outright invades them. Stop destabilising them and propping up corrupt monarchies, see how things work out.

I am anti Imperialism and anti colonialism. I edited this paragraph because it's starting to veer from the topic. But I do do know something about both genocide and British colonialism. I despise them both.

Edited by Horta
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Let the world come and try to remove them.  That's the only way it might happen and even then, it won't, though it will lead to massive losses.  In the end, it will be the perpetual hatred of the Palestinians that will cause them to be totally removed, root, and branch, from that land.

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Anyone interested in a cogent, concise, and humorous dive into the problems in Palestine, this guy is an excellent resource.

 

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On 2/27/2024 at 11:50 PM, Horta said:

It's true that the west made these institutions not so much for justice, but to punish those it doesn't like, for its own benefit. That's the amazing thing, it has now turned around and bitten them on the ****. Such a high profile hearing and findings of this type would have been unthinkable once. Lucky Trump isn't in power or he would be sanctioning all the justices (as he did with ICC investigators). Along with immense and outspoken support from a fast rising global south it's another indicator of US becoming more isolated and of western decline.

There are a lot of humorous assumptions to unpack here.  As for Trump acting against the interests of Israel, LOLWHAT?  The guy who recognized Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel before anyone even asked him to?  Dream on.  The US Evangelicals won't hear a word against Israel, and won't vote for anyone who does.  And no, the ICJ was not invented to punish countries the Civilized countries didn't like, but to help keep the peace in Europe prior to WW2, so, not very successful.

On 2/27/2024 at 11:50 PM, Horta said:

As they say every dog has its day. This episode won't be forgotten.

True, but what happens to the dog after that day? They're probably a dead dog.

On 2/27/2024 at 11:50 PM, Horta said:

Straight from the State Dept. that lot. China is the world's industrial superpower. Neither Europe nor the US can decouple from them (as much as they might like to). Forcing US financial system on the world is all that keeps them near the top (China has been at the top for some time) but it is slowly being replaced. Countries have had enough of worrying about sanctions should someone fart in church or something so alternatives are slowly being put in place.

Your information is so last decade.  Much has changed in the US/Communist Occupied West Taiwan dynamic since then. COVID has nearly destroyed China's international credibility and economy.  The BRI is DOA.  China can't get its money back from the countries it loaned to, and the USA isn't penalizing the debtors on China's behalf, so the debts are lapsing.  We also have the massive Chinese Real Estate Bubble bursting, and the running catastrophe of China's rail network.

On 2/27/2024 at 11:50 PM, Horta said:

No one ever had a problem with indigenous Palestinians (be they Christians, Jews or Muslims). It's the Zionist Jewish settlers mostly from Europe (but basically everywhere else but Palestine) that moved in and displaced/slaughtered the indigenous population that were/are the problem. The UN has a strict definition of the word "indigenous" as it pertains to humanitarian law. You should look it up.

I know the definition well.  So do the Israelis.  Most of the people described as Palestinians, if they had their claims examined are about as indigenous as the Zionist Jews you so revile.  They were Jordanian and Egyptian migrant workers who came chasing Zionist paychecks for working in British Mandated Palestine to build the future Jewish State.  They are NOT indigenous, and their claim to the land was the product of the Grand Mufti of Palestine militarizing all Muslims in the region against the Jews because he opposed the idea of a religiously pluralist democracy in Palestine, instead saying he was going to drive the Jews into the sea.  Suffice to say it didn't work, because for all the rhetoric, Muslims have been seriously deficient as actual soldiers (as opposed to terrorists) for about 400 years now, and seem to only get worse, never better.

On 2/27/2024 at 11:50 PM, Horta said:

Only because of the US. Even then times have changed, now they won't beat the Lebanese militants without US intervention. Iran would probably have already tried to obliterate them only for the US. I'm hoping it won't get to that, especially as it involves a rogue terrorist state (Israel) with nukes.

While the USA is very committed to its alliance with Israel as the only stable democracy in the Middle East that will represent US interests, Israel doesn't need the USA for its military survival as it did in the early days of its founding.  Israel now has a burgeoning military industry sector that produces world class military equipment, with well defended bases and enormous military stockpiles capable of supporting their efforts for years of intense conflict.  There simply isn't any nation in the region who can cope with what Israel can dish out, nukes be damned.  Iran won't get nukes btw, just like Iraq discovered it couldn't get nukes.  The only nuclear armed Muslim state is Pakistan, and their program was also a bust.  They have 5 Hiroshima level bombs they received from China, and they haven't been maintained properly because Pakistan doesn't have the personnel with the skills to do it.

On 2/27/2024 at 11:50 PM, Horta said:

There are huge calls now for a "two state" solution. If that ever happens Israel won't last five years and unfortunately much of the world will simply look the other way after this atrocity.

I think we can both agree that any notion of a 2 state solution is dead, post October 7th.  Gaza is going to be reduced and dispersed, and left uninhabited and uninhabitable, with the entire population being sent to the West Bank and the tender mercies of Fatah, and the hatred Hamas and Fatah have for each other is often more intense than that they have for Israel.

On 2/27/2024 at 11:50 PM, Horta said:

I see it both crumbling from within and eventually going more the way South Africa did also from the world mounting outside pressure. 

LOL, and look what has happened in South Africa.  Everything the Apartheid supporters said would happen has happened.  South Africa is 7 tenths a failed state, and getting worse daily.  As to the USA crumbling, that isn't going to happen even if Trump gets in.  Nor is Israel in any danger, even if Trump gets in.  I think it is far more likely that Saudi Arabia, Iran, Communist Occupied West Taiwan, North Korea and Russia are going to have some very bad years coming up.  These backwards totalitarian states are going to get a rapid education in why their forms of government don't work, because if the USA looks unstable, then you haven't been paying attention to what is happening in Totalitarianland.

On 2/27/2024 at 11:50 PM, Horta said:

The world mounting outside pressure. That's my hope, any other way will be very ugly. It is going to happen though. They have lost most of the world's support.

International pressure amounts to a storm in a teacup on these issues.  You will see terrorist wannabes marching in the streets, but for ever 1 of them, there are 20 people who want them dead.

On 2/27/2024 at 11:50 PM, Horta said:

I'm not pro muslim.

 I disagree.  You are what totalitarians the world over (Muslims included) call a useful idiot.  I should know, I used to be one as well.  Never again.

On 2/27/2024 at 11:50 PM, Horta said:

As an atheist I don't really care about religion.

Islam calls for the murder of all Atheists, as laid out in the Holy Quran.  You see, you may not care about religion, but religion has plans for YOU.

On 2/27/2024 at 11:50 PM, Horta said:

It's strange that most Zionists are also atheist/secular...yet they all seem to believe that god gave them Palestine lol.

The truth is that some Zionists are religious and some are secular, hence some think that YHVH returned Israel to them, while others know that it was the horrors of the Holocaust that united the Jews in their need for a homeland, that was won in the face of relentless antisemitic opposition.

On 2/27/2024 at 11:50 PM, Horta said:

The real problem with Islamic countries is that the west keeps overthrowing their govts, causes civil wars, bombs or outright invades them. Stop destabilising them and propping up corrupt monarchies, see how things work out.

On the contrary.  It is the western powers that keep these nations propped up despite their vicious internal tribal divisions.  It is the west that keeps them alive with food, because they cannot feed themselves.  The West hasn't destabilized any of the Middle Eastern countries for decades.  Remember the Arab Spring?  That was a result of Wikileaks, and ran very contrary to US and European plans for the region.  The USA and Europe want a stable Middle East, and haven't replaced a government there since the Second Iraq War.  For the most part, Muslims govern themselves, and make a shockingly bad job of it.

On 2/27/2024 at 11:50 PM, Horta said:

I am anti Imperialism and anti colonialism. 

So where do you stand on Chinese Imperialism and Russian Imperialism?  What about Islamic Imperialism?  How about Inca and Aztec Imperialism?  

How do you feel about Arabic colonialism in Africa?  What about Ancient Greek Colonialism?

I see these words, "anti-imperialism" and "anti-colonialism" as mere virtue signaling.  You've bought into a self-destructive left wing narrative of racist victimologies, which amounts to "white man bad, brown man good".  Sloganistic garbage.  Nothing about history is ever so very simple.  I can easily mount a defense of imperialism and colonialism, which dragged the most poverty stricken and backwards people of the planet into an age of prosperity that their ancestors could never have dreamed of, even when they only got the table scraps of the great powers.

For example, and I'm saying this as an American, with no great love of Britain or its Empire...  The British Empire ended slavery worldwide.  Of all the Empires in world history, only 1 ever said no to slavery, the British.  While the colonized people were subject to the British crown, they were not allowed to be chattel slaves after the British passed the Anti-Slavery Acts.  

Now, let's have a look at the largest slave states in the world today...  Slavery Today

I am of course far from impressed that the USA ranks at number 10, and have been working personally to put an end to slavery in the USA, which these days is largely limited to to the abuse of illegal migrants by sex traffickers and unscrupulous "employers".

 

As for this... What do you know about the hundreds of genocides performed by the Muslims?

On 2/27/2024 at 11:50 PM, Horta said:

But I do do know something about both genocide and British colonialism. I despise them bot

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6 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

What about Ancient Greek Colonialism?

 

 

I never had a problem with it 😁

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Antigonos said:

I never had a problem with it 😁

Neither do I.  It was extremely beneficial to the Mediterranean region, with only a few minor wars being involved.

Edited by Alchopwn
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