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Government files detail investigation of paranormal activity in Utah


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6 hours ago, Grey Area said:

And that’s how it’s done, when the ‘proof’ doesn’t present itself, just shut down the opposing voices.

Who needs proof when everyone around you believes?

Whatever works.

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16 hours ago, joc said:

That's not what scientists do.

They don't really do much at all, just point out what's already there and claim they discovered it, lol.

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2 hours ago, openozy said:

They don't really do much at all, just point out what's already there and claim they discovered it, lol.

I've learned that when I read your posts, I make sure the cat is off my lap, and no coffee while reading. Good thing. The scratches on my inner thigh are healing well. I'm still giggling. 😄 Cheers.

Hank

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2 hours ago, openozy said:

Whatever works.

So what’s the end game of that?  Help me understand.

I mean we could all agree that pink fluffy unicorns are real and are the sole providers of strawberry flavoured milk, but that belief doesn’t alter the reality.  Belief does not equal reality.

2 hours ago, openozy said:

They don't really do much at all, just point out what's already there and claim they discovered it, lol.

so the computer/tablet/phone you are posting that ridiculous comment on already existed, just required a scientist to point it out?

You are not doing anything in support of believers.  I understand (hope) you are just being facetious, but in reality you do the subject a real disservice.

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6 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Tasha, just keep coming in and talking about the thread topic. That's all.

You see, some people come in here to start arguments and fights, and I'm sure you won't be like that.

I don't believe that the forum members intend to start arguments. However, debates will inevitably arise, especially when some individuals perceive the forum as an echo chamber rather than a platform for open discussion. If someone is looking for a community that does not welcome sceptics, they should search for a website that explicitly states this.

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On 3/14/2024 at 12:21 AM, openozy said:

I'm not surprised the skeptics aren't all happy, seeing their beloved scientists and gov are investigating something open people take for granted and has been here forever. Must really hurt 😂.

I am sure that Trump will not perceive this as an attempt to initiate a conflict.

Being sceptical means that you are not easily persuaded by what is being asserted. My question is, if they were to come back and report that they have found nothing to substantiate the existence of paranormal activity, would it have any impact on your beliefs?

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1 hour ago, Grey Area said:

So what’s the end game of that?  Help me understand.

I mean we could all agree that pink fluffy unicorns are real and are the sole providers of strawberry flavoured milk, but that belief doesn’t alter the reality.  Belief does not equal reality.

so the computer/tablet/phone you are posting that ridiculous comment on already existed, just required a scientist to point it out?

You are not doing anything in support of believers.  I understand (hope) you are just being facetious, but in reality you do the subject a real disservice.

Look mate, I've seen so much of the paranormal, nothing or nobody will convince me of it being fanciful, I do like stirring the pot to lighten things up though. I think people on here take life too seriously so I go to work, lol.

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3 minutes ago, TashaMarie said:

My question is, if they were to come back and report that they have found nothing to substantiate the existence of paranormal activity, would it have any impact on your beliefs?

They do that constantly but who are they? I only take in what I experience so it's not a belief for me. I do like hearing of other people's paranormal stuff but I have to see it to truly believe it happened.

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1 hour ago, Hankenhunter said:

I've learned that when I read your posts, I make sure the cat is off my lap, and no coffee while reading. Good thing. The scratches on my inner thigh are healing well. I'm still giggling. 😄 Cheers.

Hank

I'm glad you get a laugh Hank, I like to add a bit of comedy to everything really. As you know I do take this stuff seriously but I like to make it a little fun as well. It's a real shame the refuse to believe anything not mundane crowd find me quite annoying, a real shame 🤣.

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On 3/11/2024 at 8:01 PM, esoteric_toad said:

Do you want an echo chamber? Sounds like it. Facebook is the place for you then. What do you call a group of hard core believers saying the same things over and over again ad infinitum? Are they vultures as well?

That’s basically what we have now, accept replace believers with cynics. Every thread is different. And every threads the same. 

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On 3/15/2024 at 3:21 AM, Grey Area said:

So what’s the end game of that?  Help me understand.

I mean we could all agree that pink fluffy unicorns are real and are the sole providers of strawberry flavoured milk, but that belief doesn’t alter the reality.  Belief does not equal reality.

so the computer/tablet/phone you are posting that ridiculous comment on already existed, just required a scientist to point it out?

You are not doing anything in support of believers.  I understand (hope) you are just being facetious, but in reality you do the subject a real disservice.

Actually for true believers their belief is there reality, so when challenged to offer support for their beliefs which of course they can't do any and all types of excuses will unfold.

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On 3/15/2024 at 4:29 AM, TashaMarie said:

I don't believe that the forum members intend to start arguments. However, debates will inevitably arise, especially when some individuals perceive the forum as an echo chamber rather than a platform for open discussion. If someone is looking for a community that does not welcome sceptics, they should search for a website that explicitly states this.

The net is full or paranormal echo chambers where the rabbit holes are deep and many, oddly in my case and I very well be the most cynical skeptic on here I don't argue I discuss and my ignore list is full of members who will melt down over the simple fact they never have anything to support their claims, we asking for evidence isn't an insult it's not a put down , even if I suggest proven explanations like mental illness over unproven tales of paranormal it's still nothing to play victim over yet true believers do just that and go ad hominem and it's very telling they have no evidence so it's all they do have, I guess it's too scary to accept say illness or brain damage is the cause of delusions over blaming it on spooks and entities.

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On 3/15/2024 at 4:39 AM, TashaMarie said:

I am sure that Trump will not perceive this as an attempt to initiate a conflict.

Being sceptical means that you are not easily persuaded by what is being asserted. My question is, if they were to come back and report that they have found nothing to substantiate the existence of paranormal activity, would it have any impact on your beliefs?

Did all Trumps lawyers proving zero evidence of election fraud impact his or his subjects beliefs to the contrary?

No, and true believers will never accept any explanation except it's paranormal.

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I think "tipping cold p***" on every story is totally unproductive, so-called skeptics.  It smacks of dogmatism and smells like fear to me.

I don't think much of woo woo full tilt uncritical believers, and religious hysterics either.

If someone is prepared to brave the grotesque lashings of ridicule they will face to come forwards with a story, and not seek financial recompense for it,  I am inclined to listen to them quite seriously.  That is not to say that I will simply accept their testimony, but I do think such people are most probably honest, and deserve the best answer we can provide, even if it is "you were probably tripping on local fungus spores" or something equivalent.

I get the feeling that there are some very dishonest people on both sides of the spectrum of people who take interest in these topics, some who seek to discredit the information by seeming to be totally mentally ill, and others who supply the social ridicule to stop people discussing fascinating things that have happened to them.  This all seems like the sort of smokescreen that the Tobacco Companies threw up to avoid scrutiny of the fact their products were killing people.  Muddy the water so much that nobody is certain of the truth, and even the genuinely well intentioned cannot hope to get to any facts.  I think I know why too.   If aliens exist, then many patents would be thrown out due to prior arts, and many corporations would lose a great deal of money.

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1 hour ago, Alchopwn said:

I think "tipping cold p***" on every story is totally unproductive, so-called skeptics.  It smacks of dogmatism and smells like fear to me.

I don't think much of woo woo full tilt uncritical believers, and religious hysterics either.

If someone is prepared to brave the grotesque lashings of ridicule they will face to come forwards with a story, and not seek financial recompense for it,  I am inclined to listen to them quite seriously.  That is not to say that I will simply accept their testimony, but I do think such people are most probably honest, and deserve the best answer we can provide, even if it is "you were probably tripping on local fungus spores" or something equivalent.

I get the feeling that there are some very dishonest people on both sides of the spectrum of people who take interest in these topics, some who seek to discredit the information by seeming to be totally mentally ill, and others who supply the social ridicule to stop people discussing fascinating things that have happened to them.  This all seems like the sort of smokescreen that the Tobacco Companies threw up to avoid scrutiny of the fact their products were killing people.  Muddy the water so much that nobody is certain of the truth, and even the genuinely well intentioned cannot hope to get to any facts.  I think I know why too.   If aliens exist, then many patents would be thrown out due to prior arts, and many corporations would lose a great deal of money.

Like I started saying I'm likely the most cynical skeptic here I'm not proud of that nor I'm I ashamed of it, idk if dogma applies here and fear? Hum, Idk either, specifically what I would be afraid of considering nothing paranormal has ever harmed me or been proven to have harmed anyone perhaps paranormal avoids skeptics so I'm safe,

Perhaps I'm taken wrong, for me if ghosts. Bigfoot, aliens or other paranormal things were proven facts I for one would be delighted however using the lame excuse I'm in a box or not open to it to cover lack of evidence does tend to add to my cynicism, it certainly doesn't add integrity or credibility to the story tellers.

A person can be sincere and tell a story honestly to them but it doesn't make it fact it's still a story, sincerely isn't the gauge of truth. A person can still be hoaxed, mistaken, ignorant or ill etc.

Like this thread boasting of some gov study of paranormal

Quote

The investigators even considered hiring psychics to help them figure out what was going on.

As tends to be typical with official government investigations into unexplained phenomena, the report concluded by noting that the investigators had failed to find anything concrete.

It did, however, suggest that AARO had investigated many other similar cases and that at least some of those were still classed as unexplained.

Major flaw, you can't use one unproven phenomenon to try to prove some unknown, psychics have countless times been proven frauds and charlatans never once proven to have real paranormal gifts.

And they investigation failed. Are you really surprised at that outcome?

And just as I've said countless times some things are unexplained but then the true believers use that as some spring board to make that ridiculous leap from, I don't know to So it must be paranormal,

Yeah as someone mentioned this smells like skinduper ranch now let's face it if 1% of the claims from there had any supporting evidence the paranormal debate would be solved once and for all but as expected all that tourists stop has produced is stories, no, I'm not ashamed I'm cynical.

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17 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

I think "tipping cold p***" on every story is totally unproductive, so-called skeptics.  It smacks of dogmatism and smells like fear to me.

That's an interesting take, but probably reflects more on you, than those here at this forum that love *real* mysteries.  How would you suggest that we go about finding the real mysteries?  My approach is to eliminate the unevidenced ones, or to consider, properly and closely, potential explanations.  I also welcome suggestions, even from folks who get it wrong - as sometimes it turns out that they know more than me and I can learn from their experience/expertise.

To you, that approach is 'p***ing' on the stories.  I don't think it is, and to be brutally frank, some stories deserve their fate.  If you think that some folks are unfairly dismissing cases, then argue your point politely (not like me.. :D ) 

17 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

I don't think much of woo woo full tilt uncritical believers, and religious hysterics either.

So .. this forum reflects society quite well.  What's the problem?

17 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

If someone is prepared to brave the grotesque lashings of ridicule

Example please, or is this just handwaving and silly exaggeration?  I think UM is quite fair in it's moderation, and you can always either report the post, or simply address what they say.  Truth should win out, don't you think?  And what exactly would you change?  Do you think UM moderation is unfair?  If you do, I'd strongly suggest you go to some other more welcoming, site.  I could name a few (ATS, GLP, anyone?), but I don't think you would approve...

17 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

..  not seek financial recompense for it,  I am inclined to listen to them quite seriously.

I'd say 99.9% of UM-ers are the same.

17 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

That is not to say that I will simply accept their testimony

So you are still a skeptic...

17 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

 but I do think such people are most probably honest, and deserve the best answer we can provide, even if it is "you were probably tripping on local fungus spores" or something equivalent.

But a minute ago that would have been p***ing on it..  I'm so confused.

17 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

I get the feeling that there are some very dishonest people on both sides of the spectrum of people who take interest in these topics

I'd argue that there are only a very, very few, on either side.

17 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

, some who seek to discredit the information by seeming to be totally mentally ill, and others who supply the social ridicule to stop people discussing fascinating things that have happened to them.

So, report them or argue the points.  It's not rocket science (unless they are arguing about whether we got to the moon in 1969.. :) ).

17 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

This all seems like the sort of smokescreen that the Tobacco Companies threw up

So you think that there are many paid conspirators?  I'd probably agree regarding the US politics area, but I avoid that like the Plague that it is...But as for the paranormal?  Nah.  It just attracts a certain type..... and again, I mean on both sides.

17 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

I think I know why too.   If aliens exist, then many patents would be thrown out due to prior arts, and many corporations would lose a great deal of money.

Oooh, I love this one!!  Start a new thread on this - .  which patents?  Be specific or look out, I'll p*** on that claim.

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4 hours ago, ChrLzs said:

Oooh, I love this one!!  Start a new thread on this - .  which patents?  Be specific or look out, I'll p*** on that claim.

You just did. Getting your jollies again I see. If sarcasm was acid, your fingers would have fallen off by now. All these years, and it's still the same old shtick.

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5 hours ago, ChrLzs said:

How would you suggest that we go about finding the real mysteries?  My approach is to eliminate the unevidenced ones,

It's not a mystery if it has evidence is it. 🤪🤣

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1 hour ago, Hankenhunter said:

You just did. Getting your jollies again I see. If sarcasm was acid, your fingers would have fallen off by now. All these years, and it's still the same old shtick.

The thing that really is the same old shtick is how very nasty the dear true believers have become going years telling tales being asked for a shred of supporting evidence and they have to resort to ad hominem and other silly games rather than just being cool in there unsupported beliefs,

Think about the side splitting irony you just did what you claim sceptics do.

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One thing you fail to understand is that people who experience the paranormal have enough evidence for themselves and don't care about a skeptic's opinion of them or their stories. Especially magicians who literally pull the wool over people's eyes for monetary gain and have no insight into the subject of paranormal. I call them messers 🦇.

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So where did we get here? A real life xfiles spent money to investigate alleged paranormal and guess what , get ready...they came up empty handed , no shock there. Okay to be fair they deemed some unexplained but that means zip unexplained to one person might be very understood by the next.

Seems to be a lot of true believers really do not grasp what evidence and belief really are Chrizs recently made a platinum post using a known animal the giraffe as example Joc has also been making some great posts about belief vs fact,

So if I tell Chrizs I dont believe this malarkey about a weird huge creature with a long neck Chrizs takes me to a zoo and says there, take a gander and it's done, the giraffe is known as fact.

If true believers didn't care what non believers thought of their unsupported claims and tall tales then they wouldnt be melting down about how much they don't care all the time.

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On 5/15/2024 at 10:20 AM, ChrLzs said:

That's an interesting take, but probably reflects more on you, than those here at this forum that love *real* mysteries.  How would you suggest that we go about finding the real mysteries?  My approach is to eliminate the unevidenced ones, or to consider, properly and closely, potential explanations. 

Right.  But then comes the ridicule.  Even if they have some evidence to present.

On 5/15/2024 at 10:20 AM, ChrLzs said:

To you, that approach is 'p***ing' on the stories.  I don't think it is, and to be brutally frank, some stories deserve their fate.  If you think that some folks are unfairly dismissing cases, then argue your point politely (not like me.. :D ) 

It is all about the evidence, sure, but REMEBER THIS, oral testimony is valid as evidence in a court of law in every country in the Anglophone World.  Yes, of course we need to cross examine such evidence, but where is the judge to slam the people who perform ad hominem attacks on witnesses with contempt?  Attack the quality of the evidence, certainly, but not the witness.  It is a matter of respect.  Now if the witness seems to be making the claims with a clear view to profit, that is evidence, but the onus is on the skeptic to prove that is what they are doing.

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45 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

Right.  But then comes the ridicule.  Even if they have some evidence to present

I asked countless times for supporting evidence and no, stories are not evidence, I don't ever get any evidence I get ridiculed for asking

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47 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

 

It is all about the evidence, sure, but REMEBER THIS, oral testimony is valid as evidence in a court of law in every country in the Anglophone World.  Yes, of course we need to cross examine such evidence, but where is the judge to slam the people who perform ad hominem attacks on witnesses with contempt?  Attack the quality of the evidence, certainly, but not the witness.  It is a matter of respect.  Now if the witness seems to be making the claims with a clear view to profit, that is evidence, but the onus is on the skeptic to prove that is what they are doing.

Not so fast, oral testimony in courts is supported with physical evidence, countless times stories in courtrooms fall apart during cross exam,

The burden is never on the skeptic to prove a story isn't true that's become a go to of the empty handed true believer,

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