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Theses for the Reconstruction of Ancient History


The Puzzler

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, The Puzzler said:

Not saying everything he says is true or worth the time debating…however, I do think there is some merit in the idea of ages being in chaos…he’s smarter than any of us combined.

 

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Einstein’s initial interest or endorsement isn’t an automatic indicator of the legitimacy of someone’s research or ideas. During the same period he also endorsed the theories of Harvard geologist Dr Charles Hapgood, whose research on ancient maps and theory of crustal displacement have aged poorly, due to initial lack of merit and in the light of scientific knowledge acquired over the past 70 years since he first publicized them.

In the late 90s I read then recent reprints of his two books Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings and The Path of the Pole (itself a reprint of his first book Earth’s Shifting Crust). Like Velikovsky’s works, I enjoyed Hapgood’s books when I first read them. 

The contents of the research must stand on their own merit, and in the case of both men ultimately they just don’t. But they were enjoyable rides to take at the time nonetheless. 

Edited by Antigonos
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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Any time someone tries to correlate the Biblical timeline with anything else, the history and archaeology of the conflicting culture has to be ignored.  Yet the histories and archaeologies of the non-Biblical cultures mesh very well.  The kings lists are a match for letters written between the conquered and the conquerors.  And the multiple kings lists repeat names, which confirms the chronology.

So let's look at one of his claims, that Ahab (a real king whose existence around 850 BC is confirmed) is a contemporary with Akhenaten (1350 BC.)

The oldest of the Amarna letters is from Amunhotep III (Akhenaten's father) to Kadasman-Enlil, king of Babylon.  But in the Book of Kings, the four Babylonian kings (Nebuchadnezzar, Belshazzar, Darius, and Cyrus the Great) that ruled during the time of the Exile - and in 500 BC we have evidence from all around the Mediterranean and Egypt that Egypt itself was not an independent nation but rather had been conquered by the Assyrians, then liberated briefly by a hero-king before being conquered yet again:  https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/lapd/hd_lapd.htm

Yet the Bible doesn't mention this at all.  Or the Assyrian rulers (although they would have been in charge of Egypt during Velikovsky's reworked histories) or the Persian rulers who came in late in this time period.  And yet the Jews would have surely noted the change of rulers and policies.

Then there's the problem of the lists of kings (which he tries to explain by "they used multiple names"... only these kings all list their full titles and none of them include names that match the would mean that you have to stuff Akhenaten plus around 46 more pharaohs including those with notably long reigns into the timeline between 850 and 550 BC.

And then there's the impossible "Venus comet"... 

So many things.  If you'll list one or two things you find very convincing, we can discuss them.

I think the quotes about Hatshepsut are worthy of discussion…and the Hyksos mentions…however my real interest is delving into his theory on the Ipuwer Papyrus and things closer to that, much like others have latched on to…it’s the real crux, when it can be reconciled, the rest falls into place.

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Edited by The Puzzler
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31 minutes ago, Antigonos said:

Einstein’s initial interest or endorsement isn’t an automatic indicator of the legitimacy of someone’s research or ideas. During the same period he also endorsed the theories of Harvard geologist Dr Charles Hapgood, whose research on ancient maps and theory of crustal displacement have aged poorly, due to initial lack of merit and in the light of scientific knowledge acquired over the past 70 years since he first publicized them.

In the late 90s I read then recent reprints of his two books Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings and The Path of the Pole (itself a reprint of his first book Earth’s Shifting Crust). Like Velikovsky, I enjoyed Hapgood’s books when I first read them. 

The contents of the research must stand on their own merit, and in the case of both men ultimately they just don’t. But they were enjoyable rides to take at the time nonetheless. 

A bit like Chariots of the Gods…all very dated now. But sometimes things make me go hmmmm

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15 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

I think the quotes about Hatshepsut are worthy of discussion…and the Hyksos mentions…however my real interest is delving into his theory on the Ipuwer Papyrus and things closer to that, much like others have latched on to…it’s the real crux, when it can be reconciled, the rest falls into place.

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The Papyrus of Ipuwer is a most interesting document, both for what it says and for what it doesn’t.

As an aside, you should get a copy of the Amarna Letters and read them sometime. I think you personally would find them very interesting as well.

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10 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

I think the quotes about Hatshepsut are worthy of discussion…and the Hyksos mentions…however my real interest is delving into his theory on the Ipuwer Papyrus and things closer to that, much like others have latched on to…it’s the real crux, when it can be reconciled, the rest falls into place.

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I can say with good conviction that Egypt never ruled Abyssinia.  Abyssinia is the horn of Africa (the sticky-outy part on the right) -- here's a page with timelines and maps of the Egyptian empire.  It did get to the Red Sea during the New Kingdom and later, but never went as far down the coast as Abyssinia: https://timemaps.com/encyclopedia/ancient-egyptian-history/

Ipuwer is problematic as well.  This New Kingdom papyrus is a copy of a much older text that (based on word usage and spelling (in English, it'd be things like the usage of "thee" and "thou" for "you" and "your" and spellings like "olde")) that appeared about a thousand years earlier (Middle Kingdom. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipuwer_Papyrus)  Yet it can't refer to an earlier Exodus, since Moses leads his people past the city of Pi-Ramesses (Exodus 1:11: "So they put slave masters over [the Israelites] to oppress them with forced labor, and they built Pithom and Rameses as store cities for Pharaoh,") and THAT city didn't exist until the New Kingdom.  Nor does the papyrus mention the deaths of the firstborn throughout Egypt (something that would have been a national disaster and mentioned everywhere, given how important children were to the Egyptians.)

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11 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Yet it can't refer to an earlier Exodus, since Moses leads his people past the city of Pi-Ramesses (Exodus 1:11: "So they put slave masters over [the Israelites] to oppress them with forced labor, and they built Pithom and Rameses as store cities for Pharaoh,") and THAT city didn't exist until the New Kingdom.  Nor does the papyrus mention the deaths of the firstborn throughout Egypt (something that would have been a national disaster and mentioned everywhere, given how important children were to the Egyptians.)

Indeed. Two key points here.

On a side note, I saw a very interesting documentary on Pi-Ramesses a few years ago on the history of the archaeological search for the its original site, and its eventual discovery on one of the dried up branches of the Nile.

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13 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Ipuwer is problematic as well.  This New Kingdom papyrus is a copy of a much older text that (based on word usage and spelling (in English, it'd be things like the usage of "thee" and "thou" for "you" and "your" and spellings like "olde")) that appeared about a thousand years earlier (Middle Kingdom. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipuwer_Papyrus

Why do you once again cite Wikipedia when it does not address your claims? Yes it is considered older but otherwise not one word as to why it is thought this. 

ADMONITIONS OF AN EGYPTIAN SAGE . While the "word usage and spelling", archaisms, is part of the reason why it is thought to date earlier than the NK, which spans centuries being accepted as "no earlier than" the 12th Dynasty but as late as the beginnings of the 18h Dynasty, it is also as much or more so the lament literary genre the IP resides which is specifically MK/2IP. This dating comes from Gardiner (1909) and has evolved over time which a strong case is made that it dates to the late 13th Dynasty i.e. early 2IP .  A Date for the 'Admonitions' in the Second Intermediate Period.

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Posted (edited)

I'm waiting for Fomenko to show up in this thread.

Edited by Abramelin
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Posted (edited)
On 3/20/2024 at 12:14 PM, Kenemet said:

I can say with good conviction that Egypt never ruled Abyssinia.  Abyssinia is the horn of Africa (the sticky-outy part on the right) -- here's a page with timelines and maps of the Egyptian empire.  It did get to the Red Sea during the New Kingdom and later, but never went as far down the coast as Abyssinia: https://timemaps.com/encyclopedia/ancient-egyptian-history/

Ipuwer is problematic as well.  This New Kingdom papyrus is a copy of a much older text that (based on word usage and spelling (in English, it'd be things like the usage of "thee" and "thou" for "you" and "your" and spellings like "olde")) that appeared about a thousand years earlier (Middle Kingdom. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipuwer_Papyrus)  Yet it can't refer to an earlier Exodus, since Moses leads his people past the city of Pi-Ramesses (Exodus 1:11: "So they put slave masters over [the Israelites] to oppress them with forced labor, and they built Pithom and Rameses as store cities for Pharaoh,") and THAT city didn't exist until the New Kingdom.  Nor does the papyrus mention the deaths of the firstborn throughout Egypt (something that would have been a national disaster and mentioned everywhere, given how important children were to the Egyptians.)

I know where Abyssinia was…ancient Ethiopia and we know Hatshepsut was hosting military assaults into Saudi Arabia, which MAY have been felt in Eritrea…whether or not these areas were taken in the name of Egypt….she may have had a military title embed on her during these assaults, maybe even the Candace. She was different to anyone, very powerful in tumultuous times….her name was erased from Egyptian history, her mortuary temple is magnificent. It wouldn’t surprise me if we find, in years to come, SHE is the Sphinx and she was a dominant force in ancient Ethiopia. But I must admit, your response had me reading for hours lol, thanks.

Edited by The Puzzler
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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

Why do you once again cite Wikipedia when it does not address your claims? Yes it is considered older but otherwise not one word as to why it is thought this. 

ADMONITIONS OF AN EGYPTIAN SAGE . While the "word usage and spelling", archaisms, is part of the reason why it is thought to date earlier than the NK, which spans centuries being accepted as "no earlier than" the 12th Dynasty but as late as the beginnings of the 18h Dynasty, it is also as much or more so the lament literary genre the IP resides which is specifically MK/2IP. This dating comes from Gardiner (1909) and has evolved over time which a strong case is made that it dates to the late 13th Dynasty i.e. early 2IP .  A Date for the 'Admonitions' in the Second Intermediate Period.

I will say, what I noticed in my readings is the claim that rarely does the text (written ability of the time/language etc…for instance the writing style)  align with said timeframe..9th century text in 15th century, that kind of thing….and particularly texts mentioning  people of a different timeframe….

I know you’re not saying what ever, but I found your response interesting.

I will gather the said quotes on the texts….here is one referring to the latter example…

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Edited by The Puzzler
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32 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

I know where Abyssinia was…ancient Ethiopia and we know Hatshepsut was hosting military assaults into Saudi Arabia, which MAY have been felt in Eritrea…whether or not these areas were taken in the name of Egypt….she may have had a military title embed on her during these assaults, maybe even the Candace. She was different to anyone, very powerful in tumultuous times….her name was erased from Egyptian history, her mortuary temple is magnificent. It wouldn’t surprise me if we find, in years to some, SHE is the Sphinx and she was a dominant force in ancient Ethiopia. But I must admit, your response had me reading for hours lol, thanks.

She wasn't as keen on military conquest as other pharaohs; she was more interested in building and trade.  One of her brilliant innovations was to have conquered leaders send their children to Egypt to be educated as Egyptians... and then send these children (with Egyptian values and beliefs) back to their birth countries to rule.  Technically the people would then be ruled by one of their own -- but someone with very strong ties (and affection) toward the country that conquered them.

The effort to erase her name was not very thorough or enthusiastic and appears to only be because Thutmose needed to cement his son's position as Crown Prince.  He didn't do the kind of destruction that Horemheb did to Akhenaten and Nefertiti, he simply erased some of her names and walled up (rather than destroy) some of her obelisks.

Ethiopia was never under the rule of Egypt, but it was a strong trading partner... AFTER Egypt comes under the rule of foreign rulers.  The strongest ties between the two countries come during the times when the Coptic Christians were active (100 AD through about 400 AD or so https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/galleries/ethiopia-and-coptic-egypt#:~:text=Egypt and Ethiopia were closely,bishop of Aksum in Ethiopia.)

She's not the face of the Sphinx.  Thutmose wouldn't have been doing extensive repairs to the Sphinx (which he did) if it had been newly carved in the time of Hatshepsut (which would have been 10 years previously.)

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6 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

I will say, what I noticed in my readings is the claim that rarely does the text (written ability of the time/language etc…for instance the writing style)  align with said timeframe..9th century text in 15th century, that kind of thing….and particularly texts mentioning  people of a different timeframe….

 

Remember, you're reading this in modern English.  So you're really not going to see the things (odd spellings, certain phrases) that indicate this is an older text.  What you're seeing has all been hammered out until it's in respectable, readable modern English.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Kenemet said:

Remember, you're reading this in modern English.  So you're really not going to see the things (odd spellings, certain phrases) that indicate this is an older text.  What you're seeing has all been hammered out until it's in respectable, readable modern English.

I respect that post again, but I did participate in the Oera Linda Book topic for 13 years, I’m used to reading muddled texts, looking old, being new.

Edited by The Puzzler
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How about Mycenaean times…?

We really should be asking ourselves WHY he came up with these ideas…he gives very affirmative clarifications why he has placed the events into different times.

The earliest Greek myths do incorporate Cadmus in Thebes, creating people from stones…I find this a very old reference to this people in Thebes…same name as in Egypt…because they were there too…probably at the same time…

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1 hour ago, Kenemet said:

She wasn't as keen on military conquest as other pharaohs; she was more interested in building and trade.  One of her brilliant innovations was to have conquered leaders send their children to Egypt to be educated as Egyptians... and then send these children (with Egyptian values and beliefs) back to their birth countries to rule.  Technically the people would then be ruled by one of their own -- but someone with very strong ties (and affection) toward the country that conquered them.

The effort to erase her name was not very thorough or enthusiastic and appears to only be because Thutmose needed to cement his son's position as Crown Prince.  He didn't do the kind of destruction that Horemheb did to Akhenaten and Nefertiti, he simply erased some of her names and walled up (rather than destroy) some of her obelisks.

Ethiopia was never under the rule of Egypt, but it was a strong trading partner... AFTER Egypt comes under the rule of foreign rulers.  The strongest ties between the two countries come during the times when the Coptic Christians were active (100 AD through about 400 AD or so https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/galleries/ethiopia-and-coptic-egypt#:~:text=Egypt and Ethiopia were closely,bishop of Aksum in Ethiopia.)

She's not the face of the Sphinx.  Thutmose wouldn't have been doing extensive repairs to the Sphinx (which he did) if it had been newly carved in the time of Hatshepsut (which would have been 10 years previously.)

I’m not sure he did “extensive repairs”….he shifted some sand off its limbs….as far as I know and sand moves pretty quick in those places.

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Schliemann probably did find the Mask of Agamemnon…

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1 hour ago, The Puzzler said:

I will say, what I noticed in my readings is the claim that rarely does the text (written ability of the time/language etc…for instance the writing style)  align with said timeframe..9th century text in 15th century, that kind of thing….and particularly texts mentioning  people of a different timeframe….

I know you’re not saying what ever, but I found your response interesting.

I will gather the said quotes on the texts….here is one referring to the latter example…

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Here’s a couple more..well,  one more, my files are too big, I’ll resize them

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22 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

He found a mask, but it was older than Agamemnon:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mask_of_Agamemnon

That’s the irony of the whole topic…was it really?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

He found a mask, but it was older than Agamemnon:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mask_of_Agamemnon

Yeah it’s a cool name but unfortunate since it’s created some misunderstandings.

Schliemann was a self promoter. He claimed the site of Troy was always considered mythical and never known before he discovered it, but that wasn’t true. Its general location had never been lost to begin with.

Edited by Antigonos
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50 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

That’s the irony of the whole topic…was it really?

Archaeology says it is.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Antigonos said:

Archaeology says it is.

Schliemann was a dedicated man, from childhood, the enmity shown towards him imo was of the day, it shouldn’t blind us now, he made some spectacular discoveries yet we trivial over some nonsense like his politics with Turkey, or who discovered Troy first and what he supposedly said, without him we wouldn’t even be here discussing Mycenaeans or Trojans…..now I’ve got that off my chest….

Yes, this so called archaeology…..may have a lot to answer for.

Edited by The Puzzler
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Antigonos said:

Yeah it’s a cool name but unfortunate since it’s created some misunderstandings.

It is a cool name, one of my favourite ancient items ever.

Edited by The Puzzler
I don’t know why this edited like this….
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Posted (edited)

I’m being scattered…I’ll stick to the points I’ve already made so far, ie…

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Edited by The Puzzler
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3 hours ago, Abramelin said:

He found a mask, but it was older than Agamemnon:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mask_of_Agamemnon

If we bring the archaeology down at least 300 years, it’s right on target…but then we need to bring Agamemnon down 300 years and the Trojan War…which might be the Sea People’s, not in 1200BC but 850BC…

 

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