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Revisiting God Constructs


Sherapy

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1 hour ago, cormac mac airt said:

That’s exactly it, such a deity should it exist need only initiate Creation and all the laws that govern its continuance and essential step back and watch the universe run. There’s absolutely nothing that requires such a deity taking a vested interest in us, that’s entirely human ego that needs a reason to be seen as somehow special. From a universal perspective we’re not! 
 

cormac

I also think there is an aspect of being subservient to a "higher power". Giving some a sense of deep certainty. If a person thinks or asserts that God is in control, then I suspect they will either be active or passive depending on that perspective. Kinda hard to pin down an exact position due to the subjective nature of beliefs. 

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Perfection is subjective because its definition depends upon one's social, moral, cultural, personal standards, and world-view.
 

cormac

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3 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I also think there is an aspect of being subservient to a "higher power". Giving some a sense of deep certainty. If a person thinks or asserts that God is in control, then I suspect they will either be active or passive depending on that perspective. Kinda hard to pin down an exact position due to the subjective nature of beliefs. 

What would one be subservient to with a deity who does not impose verifiable constraints on them? Subservience in that case is non-existent and therefore moot. 

cormac

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3 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

What would one be subservient to with a deity who does not impose verifiable constraints on them?

How would people have know that? We're often looking at it from a modern perspective. Culturally someone who in ancient times was schizophrenic might have been consider "in touch" with a spirit reality. While we know different, doesn't mean our ancient ancestors did. In addition to mental illness hallucinogenic substances may have also played a part in the development of the gods. Back when living from day to day was uncertain I'm sure you'd want to appease some totem for a safe hunt. Superstition can be a powerful thing. 

Even now nothing has really changed. 

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4 hours ago, Sherapy said:

The focus is on critically examining why established religious notions of God are encountering scrutiny or resistance in today's society

I don't think it's really about God, but about religious trappings. Spirituality seems to thrive.

While I done think that religions offer order, structure, and meaning to a person's life. Like all things there is a limit. Where it starts to control every aspect of their life and has negative effects. I also think this excess leads to the creation of branching ideologies that basically urinate on the birthday cake of faith.

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1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

How would people have know that? We're often looking at it from a modern perspective. Culturally someone who in ancient times was schizophrenic might have been consider "in touch" with a spirit reality. While we know different, doesn't mean our ancient ancestors did. In addition to mental illness hallucinogenic substances may have also played a part in the development of the gods. Back when living from day to day was uncertain I'm sure you'd want to appease some totem for a safe hunt. Superstition can be a powerful thing. 

Even now nothing has really changed. 

Common sense should have come into play at some point. After all, how many verifiable deities have come from the heavens imparting their expectations on humanity since we became behaviorally and cranio-morphologically modern, ie. In the last 100,000 years? Exactly ZERO! Evidently common sense wasn’t so common. 
 

cormac

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1 minute ago, cormac mac airt said:

Common sense should have come into play at some point. After all, how many verifiable deities have come from the heavens imparting their expectations on humanity since we became behaviorally and cranio-morphologically modern, ie. In the last 100,000 years? Exactly ZERO! Evidently common sense wasn’t so common. 
 

cormac

Okay, I'll shut up now.

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Just now, XenoFish said:

Okay, I'll shut up now.

Don’t do it on my account. They’re both unresolved questions IMO. At its core I think many WANT to be lied to as reality with all its unknowns scares the hell out of them. 

cormac

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

At its core I think many WANT to be lied to as reality with all its unknowns scares the hell out of them. 

From their perspective it might not have been seen as lies. Even dreams were a mystery. How someone today has a lucky quarter, they might have had a etched bone on a necklace. Plus the cognitive shift from asking a hunting god may have lead to a sharper and more specific mental focus. Like noticing game much easier. 

Very similar to the quarter experiment I've brought up a few times. 

Even the idea that God watches and judges can be seen as a form of self-imposed self regulation. By holding themselves to a higher standard. 

I also think that gods reflect certain desire, such as god is love. That God is just a condensed version of what a person wants, unconditional love. So they talk to this God, commune, etc. Just to get that emotional fulfillment. 

I know I'm not an academic in this stuff. So my perspective is solely my own. Flaws and all.

Edit: A better link. https://integralchurch.wordpress.com/2012/06/10/the-thinker-and-the-prover/

Edited by XenoFish
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4 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

From their perspective it might not have been seen as lies. Even dreams were a mystery. How someone today has a lucky quarter, they might have had a etched bone on a necklace. Plus the cognitive shift from asking a hunting god may have lead to a sharper and more specific mental focus. Like noticing game much easier. 

Very similar to the quarter experiment I've brought up a few times. 

Even the idea that God watches and judges can be seen as a form of self-imposed self regulation. By holding themselves to a higher standard. 

I also think that gods reflect certain desire, such as god is love. That God is just a condensed version of what a person wants, unconditional love. So they talk to this God, commune, etc. Just to get that emotional fulfillment. 

I know I'm not an academic in this stuff. So my perspective is solely my own. Flaws and all. 

Very likely but there’s really no excuse for it in most of the modern world, yet it still exists. 
 

There’s nothing wrong with that perspective it matches well with much of what academia has had to say. It does make me wonder if the genius who came up with calling us Homo sapiens, ie. wise man, should have thought that through a bit longer as we’re evidently not as wise as we think sometimes. 
 

cormac

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8 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Very likely but there’s really no excuse for it in most of the modern world, yet it still exists. 

It's just one form of meaning making and born from the desire to belong. Which is a very human thing. 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Sherapy said:

 


#1. What fundamental qualities or attributes of traditional God constructs are facing scrutiny or disbelief to you in modern times, and #2why do you think these beliefs no longer hold up or do hold up? 
 

All thoughts welcome.

 

 

Pardon the cuts..and the additions of #1 & #2. .  I’m compelled to respond to these two points….    #1. I think expanded education, especially in all of the sciences, has a lot to do with modern scrutiny and re-analysis of traditional God constructs. ?    #2  I think the modern worldwide information sharing explosion is playing a large role in people being easily able to share in Questioning old belief systems.?   The sheep can now easily gather in larger herds in larger ,unfenced, fields of beliefs?   :)     

Edited by lightly
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9 hours ago, Sherapy said:


Thank you to 8ty and LG for inspiring this thread. 💖

This discussion invites participants to explore the dynamic shifts and evolving perspectives within religious thought and belief systems, particularly in relation to the questioning and reevaluation of traditional God constructs in modern contexts. The focus is on critically examining why established religious notions of God are encountering scrutiny or resistance in today's society, participants are encouraged to engage in a thoughtful exploration of the changing landscape of faith, spirituality, and religious identity. 


What fundamental qualities or attributes of traditional God constructs are facing scrutiny or disbelief to you in modern times, and why do you think these beliefs no longer hold up or do hold up? 
 

All thoughts welcome.

For me: as an agnostic reflecting on the limitations of monotheistic presentations of God has prompted skepticism about the complexities of divine concepts and the challenges of articulating the ineffable. The tension between human attempts to define or comprehend a singular, transcendent God and the mysteries that lie beyond human cognition undergirds my quest. 

For me, the inherent limitations have inspired humility, curiosity, and openness to diverse spiritual perspectives and interpretations of god or no god. Engaging with the concept a god beyond human comprehension has helped me to embrace uncertainty, mystery, and wonder.

As I navigate the complexities of monotheistic presentations of God and encounter the limitations in human understanding, it has sparked a journey of self-discovery, intellectual inquiry, and growth that has fostered a deeper appreciation for the mysteries and complexities in spite of the incomprehensibility. 

 

 

Did you just hear yourself talking?  I mean, seriously.  How is anyone supposed to answer that?  What a pile of BS.

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9 hours ago, Sherapy said:


Thank you to 8ty and LG for inspiring this thread. 💖

This discussion invites participants to explore the dynamic shifts and evolving perspectives within religious thought and belief systems, particularly in relation to the questioning and reevaluation of traditional God constructs in modern contexts. The focus is on critically examining why established religious notions of God are encountering scrutiny or resistance in today's society, participants are encouraged to engage in a thoughtful exploration of the changing landscape of faith, spirituality, and religious identity. 


What fundamental qualities or attributes of traditional God constructs are facing scrutiny or disbelief to you in modern times, and why do you think these beliefs no longer hold up or do hold up? 
 

All thoughts welcome.

For me: as an agnostic reflecting on the limitations of monotheistic presentations of God has prompted skepticism about the complexities of divine concepts and the challenges of articulating the ineffable. The tension between human attempts to define or comprehend a singular, transcendent God and the mysteries that lie beyond human cognition undergirds my quest. 

For me, the inherent limitations have inspired humility, curiosity, and openness to diverse spiritual perspectives and interpretations of god or no god. Engaging with the concept a god beyond human comprehension has helped me to embrace uncertainty, mystery, and wonder.

As I navigate the complexities of monotheistic presentations of God and encounter the limitations in human understanding, it has sparked a journey of self-discovery, intellectual inquiry, and growth that has fostered a deeper appreciation for the mysteries and complexities in spite of the incomprehensibility. 

 

 

In other words, believers may not participate.  Let’s have an atheist hallelujah fest.  Whoo!  Yeah. That will fix everything.

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I’ll tell you what, I don’t know that much, I’m really not much of an expert in anything, although…I have done a lot of things…here’s what I know.  There is something.  

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There’s something that the speak of the OP doesn’t understand, or would wish to avoid speaking about…so whatever.

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You know what I did?  Though I don’t believe in psychology (I mean, I actually do to some degree), what I’m talking about is something spiritual.  It cannot be defined.  Examples of it could be given, people may dismiss them.  What I’m trying to say is that I have experienced something in the last several weeks that can only be something actually spiritual, and not something make believe.  So, what is it?  Is it God?  Is it Jesus?  Is it the angels or the saints?  Is it demons?  
 

I have no explanation of what it is.  I hope you can see it in my face when coming out of the Bruce Springsteen concert in San Diego last Monday night with my son..

 

IMG_0975.jpeg

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I would like to revisit a God concept.  The Bible says that drunkards go to hell, but…I am a little bit of a drunkard, and I have recently experienced something either spiritual, or like what God would be.  I have a pile of evidence staring me in the face that cannot be explained by mere coincidence or luck.  So….whatever.  Happy life.

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And no, it is not just because I recently watched Bruce Springsteen perform live in concert.  It is more than that.  It’s something subliminal.  It goes deeper, but the Springsteen concert was a truly spiritual experience for me.  It’s when I learned that fake news is actually a real thing, and Bruce Springsteen is an awesome dude and tremendous leader.

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The wise Master Solomon from the Bible said, let another man’s lips praise you, and not you your own.  So, I speak in praise of Bruce Springsteen.  He is 74 years old and needs athletic tape on his hands and wrists to play a show. And, so would I should I live that long.  This man is a G. At 74 years of age he played for more than three hours straight with eleven on cores, plus…during three quarters of the way through the show…he let the band take a break.  He grabbed the acoustic, and literally went up front for 15 or 20 minutes, by himself….so the band could go backstage, have a smoke and a whiskey, go pee, then go out to finish the show.  But not the Boss.  He may be 74, but he didn’t have to stop, take a pee, drink some whiskey, have a smoke.  No.  He’s a pro.  He come to play, and he comes to be the man, even at 74.  Ain’t nobody except Jack Lalanne got anything on that, save maybe Johnny Lee Hooker.  Or, maybe if you accept the hype…James Brown.  Other than that…no.

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Even if Johnny Lee Hooker were actually better than Bruce Springsteen, which I would argue against, even though Johnny Lee Hooker was an innovator which gives him pull, Springsteen was also an innovator in some ways, IMO.  However, even if not…you know what Bruce did that Hooker didn’t?  Keep his band forever.  The Boss has dudes in his band that have been there since the 70’s!  And they are still playing.  It’s like The Rolling Stones almost.  Anyway, Bruce may have been kind to his band, but I’m going to be honest with you right now.  One of guitarists looks like a leprechaun, and the other like is small version of mummified pirate.  Other than that, I wish to say no more.  

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I came a little late into this discussion and just caught up. If you don't mind, I'll just peg in my initial thought, then back to the present .

As a kid, I used to hear the lectures from preachers, then I noticed it came from academics too.  Monotheism is more advanced than polytheism in human thought.  The arrogance of that used to bug the **** out of me.  Then I thought that no god at all must be more advanced yet.  I kept it there for a long time.  A comment by Xeno triggered a memory.

Is creator inexorably  linked to the primal concept of god?  Instead of god creating the universe, what if the universe coming into being created god, an awareness, maybe omniscient, that is much more passive than male human nature  can easily assimilate? The consciousness that fills the universe could be just  a recorder of the unfolding and eventual collapse of the universe upon itself. I think that makes god very unlike us since we have to be very active to survive.  Yet maybe we have perceived that god state of awareness and respect it .  We know it is incompatible with survival, so maybe we conceive it as the afterlife.

Again, triggered by @XenoFish As easily as a single god bubble could spring up so  might scores of much smaller bubbles of limited  focus and duration.  A hunt god might fill that bill exactly.  A way for a human to focus activity by meditating on the desired state of increased awareness. Very useful to survival in hunter gatherer days. 

Somewhere along the line all of the blue collar gods of skills, focus, and knowledge merged into white collar bureaucrat god, which seems to be our current phase.  A lot of knowledge  of the universe might have been lost when that shift occurred.

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When I listen to guitar geniuses like John Mayer, and then I try to copy him, I realize how weak I am.  Yet, I understand that I must be stronger than others because I am literally trying to cover John Mayer right now. So, Intry to let that impact me and give me hope.  But, it’s hard because I am old now, and no one wants to hear what old dudes have to say…do they?  

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We may be getting old and rare in this world now, like the fighters from WW II, but there’s a lot of dudes in this world, dead or alive, who wanted to play guitar so bad, and be a star so bad, they gave it a shot.  And you know how far they got?  Smoke on the Water.  That was the only one they could even get close to, so they just quit.  I get it.  Life is hard.  

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6 hours ago, Guyver said:

In other words, believers may not participate.  Let’s have an atheist hallelujah fest.  Whoo!  Yeah. That will fix everything.

That’s not remotely what she said and you’d know that if you hadn’t been drunk posting again. The fact that Will is agreeing with everything you say ought to give you pause as well since he rarely ever agrees with anything unless it’s what he wants to hear. 
 

cormac

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