Revisiting God Constructs

[eight bits]

10 hours ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

Satan is the spiritual "king of Babylon" as well as the spiritual "King of Tyrus." It's a dual prophecy to both the earthly and spiritual rulers in those kingdoms. [Luke 4:5-6/ Revelation 13:2].

What is on the page is an oration directed toward defeated or doomed kings. Your further elaboration of that is your word, not God's, not the words of whoever wrote the passages, but yours. There is nothing wrong with that being your word. What is wrong is for you to fail to distinguish between what is written and what meaning you make based upon how you read what is written.

Quote

In Daniel chapter 10, we see Gabriel a powerful angel being held back from coming to Daniel by "the Prince of Persia." This is supernatural warfare.

As you probably already know, the angel-messenger in Daniel 10 is unnamed in the text.

Do you see why some of us here question your readings? You have a pattern and practice of stating your enhancement of the text as if it were an established fact, as if it were a "spiritual" reading when it is actually a personal reading.

It might be different if you explained why you think the messenger is Gabriel, but...

10 hours ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

Why? "Would ruin all the fun"

The fun we have here is discussion. It is difficult to have a discussion with you when you refuse to explain how you come up with the various enhancements to the Bible that you do, and instead of explaining yourself, you go off on what's wrong with us.

[Piney]

5 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

They don't hold a candle to the JWs. The people they brainwash are a pathetic lot.

JWs are Millerites. The most pathetic of them all.

[+HerNibs]

17 hours ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

Nibby,

the Bible is a spiritual book. It takes a truly spiritual mind to grasp the full meaning of the things written therein. And I'm not talking about evil spirituality either. 

Satan is the spiritual "king of Babylon" as well as the spiritual "King of Tyrus." It's a dual prophecy to both the earthly and spiritual rulers in those kingdoms. [Luke 4:5-6/ Revelation 13:2]. In Daniel chapter 10, we see Gabriel a powerful angel being held back from coming to Daniel by "the Prince of Persia." This is supernatural warfare.

There is a reason why God starts out speaking directly to the earthly ruler in those kingdoms, then begins to speak of a spiritual being. 

Kind of doesn't answer my question...

Are you saying YOU are spiritually minded enough to decree that you interpretation is THE only interpretatioin that is correct?

Nibs

[+Sherapy]

17 hours ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

Why? "Would ruin all the fun"

Hi Read, we all understand that your passion for your beliefs is paramount to you at this point in your life, however, many observe that at times, discussions become very challenging for you because personal convictions overshadow your ability for objective analysis. This impedes any ability to engage meaningfully with you. Perhaps finding a balance between your personal faith and considering objective viewpoints could lead to more productive exchanges. Moving forward, I encourage you to strive for a more balanced approach that allows for a broader exploration of the various topics. Your thoughts are welcome too, but so are everyone else’s. You accused posters of being deceptive and when asked to support this you flame bait instead, Read, you do need to support your claims when asked or stand corrected. 

[CrimsonKing]

Damn miss a few days here you get lost...

But now it is clear,"Read" is a screen name and not some dude named Reid...think I'm all caught up now! 😆

[+Hammerclaw]

10 hours ago, MrsGently said:

... well personally I face Lucifer everyday when I look in the mirror.

Online strangers are much more difficult, because a) less cute and if they are cute I wouldn't necessarily know b) always yapping about things as if they got a clue even though they really don't c) a lot less important and fun than one could have hoped for

toodeloo

Sounds like you.

[+Hammerclaw]

5 hours ago, Piney said:

JWs are Millerites. The most pathetic of them all.

The dynamic duo, Russell and Rutherford.

[Piney]

2 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

The dynamic duo, Russell and Rutherford.

Rutherford was such a conniving scumbag. Living like a prince while his congregation starved. 

[+Hammerclaw]

2 minutes ago, Piney said:

Rutherford was such a conniving scumbag. Living like a prince while his congregation starved. 

Sh!t always floats to the top.

[cormac mac airt]

18 hours ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

Nibby,

the Bible is a spiritual book. It takes a truly spiritual mind to grasp the full meaning of the things written therein. And I'm not talking about evil spirituality either. 

Satan is the spiritual "king of Babylon" as well as the spiritual "King of Tyrus." It's a dual prophecy to both the earthly and spiritual rulers in those kingdoms. [Luke 4:5-6/ Revelation 13:2]. In Daniel chapter 10, we see Gabriel a powerful angel being held back from coming to Daniel by "the Prince of Persia." This is supernatural warfare.

There is a reason why God starts out speaking directly to the earthly ruler in those kingdoms, then begins to speak of a spiritual being. 

What a load of horse****, the Bible specifically states to whom the reference to Lucifer was directed IN ITS ORIGINAL LANGUAGE and it WASN'T Satan but solely the King of Babylon. Lying about it won't make your lie true. Try again. 

cormac

[cormac mac airt]

18 hours ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

Mhmm I don't need to prove anything madame Cherupy. "They know who they are.." evidence been mounting from the beginning. It's cool "no love lost" but would it not be better to speak openly without the disguse? I'd say so. Childs play otherwise

No, you just prefer to present your incompetence and outright lies as fact. They never will be. 

cormac

[cormac mac airt]

14 hours ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

No he's pitting himself against the authenticity of the word of God/ Bible. Picking at it, but he himself is as destitute of the Spirit of God, as the deserts of Arabia of water ...but then he sits there and tries to at act like he can truly decipher or break down a spiritual book written under the inspiration of the mind of God. Yeah .. he can't even tell that God is real. At least he say he can't. 

Oh please, your incompetence is showing again. The Bible is 66 books written over centuries by 30+ authors in multiple languages NONE of which you know anything about and it's a mash-up of ideas from separate and independently influenced versions of Judaism. Yours is the intellectual equivalent of Zechariah Sitchin's claim to know and translate Sumerian, something of which he could never do. 

cormac

[ReadTheGreatControversyEGW]

5 hours ago, HerNibs said:

23 hours ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

Nibby,

the Bible is a spiritual book. It takes a truly spiritual mind to grasp the full meaning of the things written therein. And I'm not talking about evil spirituality either. 

Satan is the spiritual "king of Babylon" as well as the spiritual "King of Tyrus." It's a dual prophecy to both the earthly and spiritual rulers in those kingdoms. [Luke 4:5-6/ Revelation 13:2]. In Daniel chapter 10, we see Gabriel a powerful angel being held back from coming to Daniel by "the Prince of Persia." This is supernatural warfare.

There is a reason why God starts out speaking directly to the earthly ruler in those kingdoms, then begins to speak of a spiritual being. 

Expand  

Kind of doesn't answer my question...

Are you saying YOU are spiritually minded enough to decree that you interpretation is THE only interpretatioin that is correct?

Nibs

The word of God is not limited to "private interpretation." It is well known among the churches that this is a prophetic unveiling of Lucifer, the fallen angel. I'm not the only one saying it. 

[ReadTheGreatControversyEGW]

5 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Hi Read, we all understand that your passion for your beliefs is paramount to you at this point in your life, however, many observe that at times, discussions become very challenging for you because personal convictions overshadow your ability for objective analysis. This impedes any ability to engage meaningfully with you. Perhaps finding a balance between your personal faith and considering objective viewpoints could lead to more productive exchanges. Moving forward, I encourage you to strive for a more balanced approach that allows for a broader exploration of the various topics. Your thoughts are welcome too, but so are everyone else’s. You accused posters of being deceptive and when asked to support this you flame bait instead, Read, you do need to support your claims when asked or stand corrected. 

This is the challenge - we are not comparing apples to apples. More like apples to dragon fruit. You're attempting understand a spiritual book thru unspiritual eyes. 

We are in a world laced with deception and lies all around, people with corrupt agendas siding with demonic spirits and bringing the world to a time of trouble such as never was. If what I'm saying to you is true, you have to understand that that changes everything. 

[cormac mac airt]

54 minutes ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

This is the challenge - we are not comparing apples to apples. More like apples to dragon fruit. You're attempting understand a spiritual book thru unspiritual eyes. 

We are in a world laced with deception and lies all around, people with corrupt agendas siding with demonic spirits and bringing the world to a time of trouble such as never was. If what I'm saying to you is true, you have to understand that that changes everything. 

And you’re currently the best example of promoting both as you’ve shown no meaningful knowledge of the Biblical God Yahweh; neither in His original acceptance  as a Midianite storm/mountain deity pre-1200 BC nor the following one post 1200 BC as a Canaanite “Son of El”, nor the later 8th century BC merged (with El) deity that itself PRE-existed the merger of Satan/ha-Satan with Samael and Samyaza taking on the latter’s more negative attributes to become “the Devil” nor finally as the Christian “loving Father” figure He never started out as. You literally don’t know jack-**** about God in which to pontificate to others what is true. Try again. 
 

cormac

Edited April 25, 2024 by cormac mac airt

[+Sherapy]

1 hour ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

This is the challenge - we are not comparing apples to apples. More like apples to dragon fruit. You're attempting understand a spiritual book thru unspiritual eyes. 

We are in a world laced with deception and lies all around, people with corrupt agendas siding with demonic spirits and bringing the world to a time of trouble such as never was. If what I'm saying to you is true, you have to understand that that changes everything. 

Read, take a deep breath, the good news is you're allowing your personal fears and concerns to influence how you interpret and share “spiritual” teachings.  The problem is your approach to the religious texts you do not bring a balanced perspective, you do not consider historical context, cultural influences, or your many personal biases.
 

 

Edited April 25, 2024 by Sherapy

[ReadTheGreatControversyEGW]

15 hours ago, eight bits said:

On 4/24/2024 at 5:32 PM, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

Satan is the spiritual "king of Babylon" as well as the spiritual "King of Tyrus." It's a dual prophecy to both the earthly and spiritual rulers in those kingdoms. [Luke 4:5-6/ Revelation 13:2].

Expand  

What is on the page is an oration directed toward defeated or doomed kings. Your further elaboration of that is your word, not God's, not the words of whoever wrote the passages, but yours. There is nothing wrong with that being your word. What is wrong is for you to fail to distinguish between what is written and what meaning you make based upon how you read what is written.

Perhaps you can grasp this.. but knowing you..  You'll just pick at it lol. 

Since the fall of mankind, "the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.” Rom8:22 "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”. Rev 12:12. 

There is a dual application to the prophecy [Isaiah 14/Ezekiel 28]: 

3And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,

4That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

5The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.

6He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.

7The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing." 

**I won't quote it all but it keeps going and then breaks off into this --> 

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit." 

**Do you see the connection? Probably not lol I just can't.. a bit exasperated here.. This is not the human king of Babylon. Read Ezekiel 28. It's the same situation but with a "covering or anointed Cherub," a beautiful being who became corrupt after his creation. Same story. He was full of pride and is doomed to destruction, guilty of oppressing the nations of the world. 

This is what's awaiting Lucifer, aka the devil: "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone.." some "god" or "prince" uh? 

[ReadTheGreatControversyEGW]

15 hours ago, eight bits said:

Quote

In Daniel chapter 10, we see Gabriel a powerful angel being held back from coming to Daniel by "the Prince of Persia." This is supernatural warfare.

As you probably already know, the angel-messenger in Daniel 10 is unnamed in the text.

Do you see why some of us here question your readings? You have a pattern and practice of stating your enhancement of the text as if it were an established fact, as if it were a "spiritual" reading when it is actually a personal reading.

It might be different if you explained why you think the messenger is Gabriel, but...

Why do you not study the text? Do you believe Daniel 10 is somehow unconnected to the other chapters? Have you looked at them? 

Gabriel is the angel that was sent to explain the visions to him. This angels returns each time to explain the visions to him when he's confused and begins to fast and pray.

Surface reading isn't all that profitable - do some studying. 

“And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.” Dan 8:16. 

He keeps appearing to him. 

“Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.” Dan 9:21. 

This angel loves to say to him “..I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved.." 9:23 

Here it is again. 
“..O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. 10:11. 

Edited April 26, 2024 by ReadTheGreatControversyEGW

[+HerNibs]

3 hours ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

The word of God is not limited to "private interpretation." It is well known among the churches that this is a prophetic unveiling of Lucifer, the fallen angel. I'm not the only one saying it. 

Ok. So who else says that the interpretation you stated is the one and only correct one?

I don’t need preaching. Just a direct answer.

Nibs

[+Hammerclaw]

2 hours ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

This is the challenge - we are not comparing apples to apples. More like apples to dragon fruit. You're attempting understand a spiritual book thru unspiritual eyes. 

We are in a world laced with deception and lies all around, people with corrupt agendas siding wiMy,th demonic spirits and bringing the world to a time of trouble such as never was. If what I'm saying to you is true, you have to understand that that changes everything. 

My, my what a superstitious little hick you are. The Salvation of Jesus Christ is a ward against all such evil except in your little cult.

Edited April 26, 2024 by Hammerclaw

[eight bits]

1 hour ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

Perhaps you can grasp this.. but knowing you..  You'll just pick at it lol. 

In your view, Romans 8:22 and Revelation 12:12 alter how Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 ought to be read. Ok, the New Testament is full of midrashim (interpretations) of the Jewish scriptures. Paul and probably "John" are writing too early for there to be a Jewish canon yet, so their "Jewish scriptures" would likely include at least 1 Enoch, and maybe more of the Enochian books - that helps your case. Isaiah and Ezekiel, however, are not responsible for how later writers will reinterpret their work. That is fatal to your case, IMO.

The first step in understanding a midrash is to understand what is being said in the original passage being commented upon. In our cases, Lucifer is the Latin word conscripted into English for how one king was addressed (bright and shiny, like planet Venus in the morning) and Paradise was an apt description of another king's lifestyle - before God greases them.

1 hour ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

**Do you see the connection? Probably not lol I just can't.. a bit exasperated here.. This is not the human king of Babylon. Read Ezekiel 28. It's the same situation but with a "covering or anointed Cherub," a beautiful being who became corrupt after his creation. Same story. He was full of pride and is doomed to destruction, guilty of oppressing the nations of the world. 

I see the connection just fine. Later writers alluded to earlier writers to make new points. The hitch in the giddyup is that you don't seem interested in looking at the earlier writers as authors in their own rights, making their own points to their own first readers.

When Satan-as-malefactor developed in Jewish literature, Jewish authors of that time could allude back to Isaiah and Ezekiel. When Christianity emerged, the new authors could allude to both the earlier layers of Jewish writers. When the modern writers of Star Trek TNG cooked up the character of Ardra, they drew on both Jewish and Christian literature to create their "devil."

This is how literature works.

40 minutes ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

Why do you not study the text? Do you believe Daniel 10 is somehow unconnected to the other chapters? Have you looked at them? 

Chapter 9 describes a vision that occurs in the first year of Darius. Gabriel does indeed appear. Chapter 10 describes a different vision that occurs in the third year of Cyrus. Daniel seems to have scrambled the Persian chronology, but the two chapters on their face occur in different years.

By all means, if you think that Gabriel appears in both chapters, then that is your interpretation. The text, however, is silent about the name of the messenger-angel in chapter 10. Expect, then, that some other people will have their own interpretations, and some will just accept that the text leaves the matter unresolved.

Edited April 26, 2024 by eight bits

[+Hammerclaw]

9 hours ago, HerNibs said:

Kind of doesn't answer my question...

Are you saying YOU are spiritually minded enough to decree that you interpretation is THE only interpretatioin that is correct?

Nibs

Lil' Ellen is wont to do that sort of thing. She's very indoctrinated.....and opinionated.

Edited April 26, 2024 by Hammerclaw

[+Sherapy]

13 hours ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

This is the challenge - we are not comparing apples to apples. More like apples to dragon fruit. You're attempting understand a spiritual book thru unspiritual eyes. 

We are in a world laced with deception and lies all around, people with corrupt agendas siding with demonic spirits and bringing the world to a time of trouble such as never was. If what I'm saying to you is true, you have to understand that that changes everything. 

Read, basically you perceive the devil around every corner this is due to your own belief in spiritual warfare, where you see (imagine) ongoing battles between good and evil manifesting in everyday situations. However, what is happening is you have fallen into patterns of fear, paranoia, and demonizing and accusing other posters unjustly. Of course, there is good and bad throughout life but, there is also is a lot of room for you to cultivate discernment, compassion, and a sense of personal responsibility in how you interact with your beliefs because on UM you promote spiritual toxicity. 

[Antigonos]

19 hours ago, CrimsonKing said:

Damn miss a few days here you get lost...

But now it is clear,"Read" is a screen name and not some dude named Reid...think I'm all caught up now! 😆

I think “Read” is meant to be ironic.

[+Hammerclaw]

1 hour ago, Antigonos said:

I think “Read” is meant to be ironic.

Shouldn't that be mo instead of an i?