Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -

Revisiting God Constructs


Sherapy

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, eight bits said:

If I recall correctly, a few years ago we had a discussion about people's "images of god" (imagines dei as Uncle Carl put it). The idea being that the ontological reality of gods is unknowable, and the full-bore, omni-everything, capital-G God isn't even discussable - ineffability being one of his attributes (and you can't even say that God has attributes, or call God him).

What we can discuss is what people think about gods. About that there's plenty to discuss.

One thing is that the parts that go into a typical imago dei are also attributed to beings who aren't considered "gods," but are more than natural in some other sense. I think the earlier thread was back in the Game of Thrones era and I posted up this imago deae of a fictional character who wasn't a goddess, and yet the title mother of dragons set her apart from the girl next door:

5ce4187c01fc3_imagodeae02.jpg.99a9d09003e1c16de3c6e33c3ec66c5d.jpg

The sure sign that something psychological is going on: the fictional death of that character was received poorly, more so than the deaths of many well-known real-life people receive from the general public.

Notice also that there's no question of "belief." The woman is entirely imaginary, living in a world that never existed. And that simply doesn't matter: she isn't speaking to the part of the psyche that notices that "winter" refers to a season in real life, not an era.

Sorting all that out is way above my pay grade. As to the Christian version, I am just empirical about it. Mark's gospel is compelling theater, even though I don't believe a word of it. Whether there was or wasn't some poor schmuck who was crucified for being a minor nuisance to Temple commerce, I don't know. I do know he didn't walk on water or feed thousands with a couple of Fishwiches. And it doesn't matter that I know that just as it doesn't matter that I know that there are no fire-breathing dragons.

And if there was some poor schmuck who got killed? He stayed dead, and he's not coming back, no more than Mohammed or Joseph Smith is coming back. Nevertheless, I sincerely wish my Christian readers here a Happy Easter (today in the western church; May 5th for the Orthodox). Conquering death is a powerful idea, a worthy component of an image of God.

Well said. :clap: Happy Easter to you and yours. 

Edited by Sherapy
  • Thanks 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

I just realized I'd misread the title of the thread. On first glance I read it as Revising God Constructs.

That’s called  History of Religions?

  • Like 4
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

Some people today claim that science has shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that the universe didn't need God for it to have been created. That God does not exist even.

Some of these same people today also claim that science has shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that a person being born a biological male or female has nothing to do with whether they are actually a man or a woman.

 

 

Some people claim a ratty little book, in print for 70 years and yet failed to generate a substantial following, holds the secrets of the universe. Some people, also, have rheir heads stuffed so far up their backsides, they love the view and think the air smells g-o-o-o-o-o-o-d.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2
  • Haha 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

 

7 hours ago, MrsGently said:

well the Christian God is utterly useless, that's the problem why less people want to have anything to do with it. Dogmatic threatening and 'judging' without offering any sort of actual help or interference.

People nowadays want God to repair their stuff or to make them rich, that is the modern spirit, make a wish and the universe will give it to you, that is what people are looking for today in spirituality. The afterlife is of much less concern than this one life.

 

The attempt to make God something that it never was in the context of Christianity is what creates tensions. God is this human called J.C. who got out of his total service of this one God: crucification and eternal torture so we can sin to our hearts content.

The Christian lore just doesn't make sense that is why less people are willing to follow the doctrine because we have better education and can see the huge issues arising from the really just 'stolen' or incorporated (some might say incoherently jumbled together) material. Christianity only really survived that long because of its imperial power structure and the fact that they put themselves on top of the big four in life birth, adulthood, marriage and death.

 

Personally I do believe in a God, alas not as consequence of my urge to be punished, but because life and the encompassed consciousness and intelligence are the 'mysteries beyond human comprehension' as you put it and for that to make sense it is just a natural step at this point to see God as the intelligence that naturally emerges as 'organizing agent' out of the sum of consciousness/life in the universe, just as our personality and awareness emerge from us 'being alive' and the consequent need to steer this thing/meatbag through life in a way that makes it 'progenitor of life'

Thank you for your post, it was incredibly interesting to read. 

Edited by Sherapy
  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In postmodern religious epistemology, does evidentialism still hold importance? Since we experience reality through sensory impression and still could experience those impressions, even if nothing material existed, are imaginary impressions of God any less real than those of mundane reality?

The Epistemology of Religion (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Love this. Happy Easter to you and yours. Let us know how the ham turns out. 

The ham was...well, honestly, it was edible.  I didn't realize it was already cooked and I put it in the oven on 220...then we drove to Dallas and went to church with my daughter and her boyfriend and then we went to see her new apartment and...got home about 4:00.  So, it cooked for quite a bit longer than I thought.  It was kind of dry but it was good.  I think from now on I'll leave the cooking to my wife and I will stay with the grilling!  I'm good at that.  

Other than that, it was good Easter.  Church was exactly what I expected, no surprise there.  But was a good boy scout and kept my thoughts to myself.  Not really into raining on anyone else's Easter parade.  ;)

  • Like 5
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, eight bits said:

On May 5th, many Romanian friends will celebrate Easter. Most of the ones I know are atheists, but still they will salute each other Hristos a inviat! and respond Adeverat a inviat!. Romanian is not an impoverished language, Happy Easter plain and simple is available: Paste fericit. But once upon a time, God became a man, and that man became God - you don't have to believe it to celebrate the idea

That's awesome.  You are quite correct...you don't have to believe it to celebrate the idea.  I go to church twice a year...Christmas Eve and Easter.  And I celebrate the idea with my daughter and wife.  Traditions are important. Much more important than belief in my opinion.  The one thing I like about the Christian faith is reflected in the hymn Amazing Grace...'twas grace that taught my heart to fear, and grace my fears relieved, how precious did that grace appear the hour I first believed.  

That is kind of what the Christian faith is all about...Grace.  So, I appreciate the faith of others...I just don't believe any of it.

Imagini pentru imagini paste fericit | Past, Easter ...

 

Edited by joc
  • Like 3
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Sherapy said:

God is this human called J.C. who got out of his total service of this one God: crucification and eternal torture so we can sin to our hearts content.

I don't think you have any real concept of what Christianity is.  But that's okay.  The real problem with Christianity is not the faith.  The real problem is the Corporation of Religion.  The faith is pretty simple actually.  

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

7 hours ago, joc said:
  14 hours ago, Mrs.Gently said:

God is this human called J.C. who got out of his total service of this one God: crucification and eternal torture so we can sin to our hearts content.

The quote is Mrs.Gently’s it was originally quoted as mine in error. Fixed it.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

 

The quote is Mrs.Gently’s it was originally quoted as mine in error. Fixed it.

Doh!  Many apologies for not paying attention ... 🫤

For the benefit of newer posters and other's who don't know...and as a reminder for those who do...

How that happens:

If you quote a 'quote' inside someone's reply, it is attributed to the one who posted the reply.  To easily find the original quote, click on the arrow following the quoter's name...go to the original quote and reply to that.

Thank you! 🙏

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/29/2024 at 4:09 PM, Sherapy said:

What fundamental qualities or attributes of traditional God constructs are facing scrutiny or disbelief to you in modern times, and why do you think these beliefs no longer hold up or do hold up? 

That is a great question although I struggle with defining the 'fundamental' attributes, mine are being omnipotent and -scient and being the supreme creator but that may be more because I find those qualities the most interesting to think about and engage with.  I would imagine part of the decline in popular religions is part just increasing general skepticism coupled with the loss of 'privilege' I guess for religious ideas that they used to enjoy since there used to be less open questioning of those ideas.  That doesn't explain all of it, critical thinking has been around and ignored for a long time after all, but I think within Christianity especially the decline in the US has also been aided by some Christians' attitudes towards their fellow sinners in LGBT relationships and other political/culture war junk, which some like myself find enormously hypocritical and a lazy distraction from what Jesus actually emphasized his followers to be like and do.

Even for me as a non-believer though I like to think about or use the concept of God to bounce ideas off of, mainly what qualities I would give God, or even Jesus as an exemplar of what a human should be like.  I'm torn about whether I want God involved in moral judging at all, the idea that God cares what we do with our reproduction-oriented naughty bits is absurd to me, it makes no more sense to me that it matters any more 'morally' than the stuff in the bible about not wearing mixed fabrics yet gets a ridiculously oversized amount of attention.  I can see how it's gratifying but I don't want to sic an eternal hell on people who commit terrible crimes here; those who feel what they have done is wrong may feel enough guilt about it and are being punished sufficiently already and those who don't think their crimes are wrong start getting too close to an 'insanity' plea.

Whether it came from evolution or came from God, the most valuable attribute we have is empathy, for me it provides some of the most powerful arguments against certain conceptions of God since many of those conceptions violate what my empathy, 'god-given' if God exists, is telling me.  The universe and logic doesn't always do that great of a job of providing an answer why we shouldn't just steal things and why it's wrong, my empathy does.  My hope is that our empathy is still an emerging part of our evolutionary development, it's too easy for us now to set it aside when dealing with people we think are 'other' or when we're wrapped up in ideas of vengeance/'justice'.  I think altruism in the animal world is something that has emerged relatively recently so hopefully that will continue to grow in our species.

Ultimately the fundamental quality that I think 'God'-centered religious belief revolves around is an afterlife and 'overcoming death'.  If a god doesn't want me to have any other gods before him, or wants to use a metaphorical 'sword' to divide me from family/friends who may not believe the right way, or thinks it's sinful if I admire a woman's butt, if eternity isn't riding on it, then all I can say is 'duly noted' and roll my eyes.

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Liquid Gardens said:

That is a great question although I struggle with defining the 'fundamental' attributes, mine are being omnipotent and -scient and being the supreme creator but that may be more because I find those qualities the most interesting to think about and engage with.  I would imagine part of the decline in popular religions is part just increasing general skepticism coupled with the loss of 'privilege' I guess for religious ideas that they used to enjoy since there used to be less open questioning of those ideas.  That doesn't explain all of it, critical thinking has been around and ignored for a long time after all, but I think within Christianity especially the decline in the US has also been aided by some Christians' attitudes towards their fellow sinners in LGBT relationships and other political/culture war junk, which some like myself find enormously hypocritical and a lazy distraction from what Jesus actually emphasized his followers to be like and do.

Even for me as a non-believer though I like to think about or use the concept of God to bounce ideas off of, mainly what qualities I would give God, or even Jesus as an exemplar of what a human should be like.  I'm torn about whether I want God involved in moral judging at all, the idea that God cares what we do with our reproduction-oriented naughty bits is absurd to me, it makes no more sense to me that it matters any more 'morally' than the stuff in the bible about not wearing mixed fabrics yet gets a ridiculously oversized amount of attention.  I can see how it's gratifying but I don't want to sic an eternal hell on people who commit terrible crimes here; those who feel what they have done is wrong may feel enough guilt about it and are being punished sufficiently already and those who don't think their crimes are wrong start getting too close to an 'insanity' plea.

Whether it came from evolution or came from God, the most valuable attribute we have is empathy, for me it provides some of the most powerful arguments against certain conceptions of God since many of those conceptions violate what my empathy, 'god-given' if God exists, is telling me.  The universe and logic doesn't always do that great of a job of providing an answer why we shouldn't just steal things and why it's wrong, my empathy does.  My hope is that our empathy is still an emerging part of our evolutionary development, it's too easy for us now to set it aside when dealing with people we think are 'other' or when we're wrapped up in ideas of vengeance/'justice'.  I think altruism in the animal world is something that has emerged relatively recently so hopefully that will continue to grow in our species.

Ultimately the fundamental quality that I think 'God'-centered religious belief revolves around is an afterlife and 'overcoming death'.  If a god doesn't want me to have any other gods before him, or wants to use a metaphorical 'sword' to divide me from family/friends who may not believe the right way, or thinks it's sinful if I admire a woman's butt, if eternity isn't riding on it, then all I can say is 'duly noted' and roll my eyes.

Wonderful add too. LG both you and 8ty inspired this thread, specifically a recent inquiry to Will from you and a recent inquiry to Read from 8ty.. 
 

Indeed, the mythological narrative on the qualities worth emulating as far as the god character goes concerns me too. 

Some believer’s posit a more hands-on, interventionist deity who is intricately involved in every detail of human life, including moral judgment and oversight of individual actions. This perspective is restrictive or micromanaging, it raises concerns about personal agency and the capacity for individuals to make meaningful choices without direct divine intervention. 

On the other hand, some people posit a more hands-off or transcendent conception of God, emphasizing principles of free will, moral agency, and human responsibility. In these frameworks, individuals are seen as active agents in shaping their own lives and moral decisions, with divine guidance or the mystery of the unknown serving more as a source of inspiration or a moral compass rather than a prescriptive set of rules to be followed strictly.


 

 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 4
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/31/2024 at 5:27 AM, joc said:

See below:

...just adding on...

Einstein's theory of gravity predicts that the Universe began in a singularity – a state of zero size and thus infinite density and gravitational force, which would prevent it expanding. link

What is the Higgs boson?

In our current description of Nature, every particle is a wave in a field. The most familiar example of this is light: light is simultaneously a wave in the electromagnetic field and a stream of particles called photons. In the Higgs boson's case, the field came first. The Higgs field was proposed in 1964 as a new kind of field that fills the entire Universe and gives mass to all elementary particles. The Higgs boson is a wave in that field. Its discovery confirms the existence of the Higgs field.

Particles get their mass by interacting with the Higgs field; they do not have a mass of their own.  The stronger a particle interacts with the Higgs field, the heavier the particle ends up being. Photons, for example, do not interact with this field and therefore have no mass. Yet other elementary particles, including electrons, quarks and bosons, do interact and hence have a variety of masses. 

The Higgs boson can't be “discovered” by finding it somewhere but has to be created in a particle collision. Once created, it transforms – or “decays” – into other particles that can be detected in particle detectors. Physicists look for traces of these particles in data collected by the detectors. The challenge is that these particles are also produced in many other processes, plus the Higgs boson only appears in about one in a billion LHC collisions. But careful statistical analysis of enormous amounts of data uncovered the particle's faint signal in 2012. link

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The more we understand about the universe, the more the concepts of God are diminished. 

This post is a win.  I feel smarter for having read it.  Nicely done sir!

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/30/2024 at 8:07 PM, Hammerclaw said:

I just realized I'd misread the title of the thread. On first glance I read it as Revising God Constructs.

I’m not sure that would be a bad line of discussion.  Maybe it’s time our God concepts got a little revision

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/30/2024 at 8:25 PM, Dejarma said:

IMO you don't have to stop drinking... For someone with a drink problem that's way too difficult.

Just try to find a way to 'not drink so much'... I put forward a suggestion earlier for what it's worth 🤷‍♂️

Excellent point. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/30/2024 at 9:10 PM, Will Due said:

 

Some of these same people today also claim that science has shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that a person being born a biological male or female has nothing to do with whether they are actually a man or a woman.

 

 

You do have a point.  There are only two sexes in humans, and they are not determined by cognitive choice, as some people believe and claim.  There are no true cases of hermaphroditism among mammals, even though the birth defect occurring in a small percentage of humans is incorrectly called that.  A true hermaphrodite has the capacity to reproduce.  This does not occur in humans.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is a difference between sex (determined by chromosomes) and gender 

 

  • Like 2
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/30/2024 at 11:15 PM, Will Due said:

 

What science shows doesn't matter. 

What matters is what people say science shows. 

 

This is sadly true from a sociological perspective.  People in wokeism and other socio/political movements actually generate false beliefs and opinions about us, and therefore the world, that are clearly shown to be false from a scientific standpoint.  The belief that a person can be physically born one sex, and actually view that as a “mistake” because they identify (or believe) that they are another sex is completely false.  Sex is determined by gene expression, that is all.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Essan said:

There is a difference between sex (determined by chromosomes) and gender 

 

Ok….wow.  Way to open an enormous can of worms.  Would you mind elaborating on this point?  According to the dictionary, the primary definition of gender has to do with sex identification.  That is….until recently?

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/31/2024 at 3:02 AM, eight bits said:

If I recall correctly, a few years ago we had a discussion about people's "images of god" (imagines dei as Uncle Carl put it). The idea being that the ontological reality of gods is unknowable, and the full-bore, omni-everything, capital-G God isn't even discussable - ineffability being one of his attributes (and you can't even say that God has attributes, or call God him).

What we can discuss is what people think about gods. About that there's plenty to discuss.

One thing is that the parts that go into a typical imago dei are also attributed to beings who aren't considered "gods," but are more than natural in some other sense. I think the earlier thread was back in the Game of Thrones era and I posted up this imago deae of a fictional character who wasn't a goddess, and yet the title mother of dragons set her apart from the girl next door:

5ce4187c01fc3_imagodeae02.jpg.99a9d09003e1c16de3c6e33c3ec66c5d.jpg

The sure sign that something psychological is going on: the fictional death of that character was received poorly, more so than the deaths of many well-known real-life people receive from the general public.

Notice also that there's no question of "belief." The woman is entirely imaginary, living in a world that never existed. And that simply doesn't matter: she isn't speaking to the part of the psyche that notices that "winter" refers to a season in real life, not an era.

Sorting all that out is way above my pay grade. As to the Christian version, I am just empirical about it. Mark's gospel is compelling theater, even though I don't believe a word of it. Whether there was or wasn't some poor schmuck who was crucified for being a minor nuisance to Temple commerce, I don't know. I do know he didn't walk on water or feed thousands with a couple of Fishwiches. And it doesn't matter that I know that just as it doesn't matter that I know that there are no fire-breathing dragons.

And if there was some poor schmuck who got killed? He stayed dead, and he's not coming back, no more than Mohammed or Joseph Smith is coming back. Nevertheless, I sincerely wish my Christian readers here a Happy Easter (today in the western church; May 5th for the Orthodox). Conquering death is a powerful idea, a worthy component of an image of God.

Big win props for the photo, and the reminder about the “Mother of Dragons.”

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good luck with your thread @Sherapy. Looks like it'll be a **** show from this point forward. 

  • Thanks 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, Sherapy said:

This is more reflective of a lack of understanding about science. Also, god is defined as beyond human comprehension, so the fairest conclusion is we don’t know one way or another at this time, humanity has no way of evidencing god. Claiming otherwise is one’s personal agenda at play.

Well said.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

Good luck with your thread @Sherapy. Looks like it'll be a **** show from this point forward. 

What makes you think so?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Guyver said:

What makes you think so?

Guyver, because of the complex interplay between sociopolitical movements, scientific understanding, and beliefs about gender and identity involves distinguishing between biological sex and gender identity. Research in biology, endocrinology, and psychology has shown that gender identity is influenced by a mix of biological, psychological, and social factors, extending beyond a basic binary view of sex. Unfortunately, based on posting history there are some posters who have issue with gender identity that isn’t binary and will use this thread as a platform to flame bait, when it isn’t the thread topic.
 

At this time cultural advocacy for gender inclusivity, is often associated with movements like "wokeism," which seeks to promote equality and respect for diverse gender identities. Of course, debates will persist and engaging in respectful dialogue and acknowledging the nuances of human identity can help foster understanding and inclusivity amidst differing viewpoints on these issues but it isn’t gonna be with Will or you. You are free to start a thread Guyv, but to derail the thread due to one’s own personal issues has no place. Thank you for getting back on topic. 

Edited by Sherapy
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 7
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.