pellinore Posted April 10 Author #76 Share Posted April 10 9 hours ago, Kittens Are Jerks said: Rowling's past experience has clearly had an impact, .... They are not the threat she and others think they are. I'm pretty sure Rowling doesn't see transwomen as a threat. She just doesn't see them as women. And I agree with her views that we should not discriminate and should respect other people's views etc. But just because someone identifies as something (a cat, a parrot, or whatever), doesn't mean they are one. They just identify as one. Strewth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pellinore Posted April 10 Author #77 Share Posted April 10 11 hours ago, Kittens Are Jerks said: Your claim that transgender women are just men in dresses or, as you so callously put it, “glorified surgically altered crossdresser[s]”, ignores the fact that sex and gender are far more nuanced and complicated. You’re coming at it from a Platonic essentialism level with firm conviction that science supports you. It doesn't. You're not entirely incorrect, but you're not entirely right either. It is nuanced, and complicated, and people do feel real hurt at being misgendered. I have worked with loads of gay men, and their campness is amusing - to them and me. It is neither here nor there. But when I am confronted with a man in makeup and a dress, who may be concerned about being addressed correctly (what do I know, is it sir, ma'am, you two?), I feel a bit uneasy. I feel, maybe unfairly, that they are provoking me to challenge them. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittens Are Jerks Posted April 11 #78 Share Posted April 11 3 hours ago, pellinore said: It is nuanced, and complicated, and people do feel real hurt at being misgendered. I have worked with loads of gay men, and their campness is amusing - to them and me. It is neither here nor there. But when I am confronted with a man in makeup and a dress, who may be concerned about being addressed correctly (what do I know, is it sir, ma'am, you two?), I feel a bit uneasy. I feel, maybe unfairly, that they are provoking me to challenge them. Part of your uneasiness may have something to do with the way in which you view trans women. They are not men in dresses. They are women who were assigned male at birth. They have a female gender identity. As for how to address them, address them by their name. If you don't know it, ask. If you're unsure about their correct pronoun, again, all you have to do is ask. In short, treat them as you would any other person — politely, respectfully and with kindness. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyche101 Posted April 11 #79 Share Posted April 11 On 4/10/2024 at 7:47 AM, pellinore said: To be absolutely honest, I probably agree with you 99%. And personally, I don't care one jot what other people choose to do, identify with, etc, as long as they don't stop others enjoying their lives. That actually doesn't surprise me. I find you a well balanced individual that offers insightful aspects of a subject to ponder. I'm just staying in my lane and listening to the actual people affected. If they are ok with it, that's good enough for me. On 4/10/2024 at 7:47 AM, pellinore said: What I don't like is trans people stoking culture wars by promoting their views. Very good and decent people in public life struggle to support trans and also promote honesty. But that's very much a two way street. It's only become an issue lately because of the Republican carry on. I think it's a bit more visible with the gay community finally getting equal rights after so long. They are just taking the lead with more open opportunities. As I say, trans people have been in sports for decades, trans communities exist without the hysteria the right wing promotes and have done for a long time. Conservatives act like it's a new evil tearing down society but it's an old custom. I dislike the hysteria and exaggerated BS. I feel it's a real issue that's more detrimental to community that trans athletes. On 4/10/2024 at 7:47 AM, pellinore said: In the UK we have a good chance of seeing off the Tories in the next GE but Kier Starmer is labelled as someone who doesn't know what a woman is. PM Sunak has already gone on record as saying women don't have a penis. Starmer can't bring himself to say it, because if he does, off we go in a culture war which only the right wing will win. I don't think Stammer is seen in a bad light though. Sunak is. His timing was really bad and his comments off. A death just isn't the time to invoke personal ideals that disrespect the dead. The right is traditionally louder. On 4/10/2024 at 7:47 AM, pellinore said: Trans activists are like the Left activists in the UK- they don't actually want to be in power to change things, they want to be in perpetual opposition, as heroic victims. Like Mick Lynch urging his union members to vote for Brexit so they can nationalise railways- as James O'Brian has said, it's like giving a shotgun to someone who says he wants to shoot your dog. But let's face it, activists aren't often representative of the majority and more often are just a pain in the backside. When we look at right wing activists like Tommy Robinson, the balance tilts again. When it comes down to it, there's no high ground with that sort activism. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyche101 Posted April 11 #80 Share Posted April 11 14 hours ago, Kittens Are Jerks said: Rowling's past experience has clearly had an impact, so I can certainly understand her concerns about the safety of women. Her worries, however, are based on a false dilemma. Like Rowling, I too am a cisgender woman, but unlike her, I know that a fear of trans people is nowhere near rational. They are not the threat she and others think they are. Indeed, not only have trans women been at the front of many struggles for women’s rights, many are also subject to similar forms of discrimination and misogyny, only worse. Very much, that's the thing here isn't it There's definitely personal issues involved. And I don't think it's a good idea to feed instability. She is getting more aggressive with time as trolls egg her on. Her colleges from Harry Potter seem pretty disgusted on her newfound crusade. It's probably good that this reared its ugly head after the movies. Tommy Robinson would make a rubbish Harry Potter. 14 hours ago, Kittens Are Jerks said: Did you know that in the majority of US states it's still considered a valid legal defence to murder a trans person if you found yourself attracted to them? This is the kind of thing irrational fears and prejudice toward trans people results in. It's downright horrifying. https://www.lgbtmap.org/equality-maps/panic_defense_bans How is that legal? That is seriously messed up. Basically a license to murder. But stand your ground laws are too. Gun culture is just insane. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyche101 Posted April 11 #81 Share Posted April 11 12 hours ago, DayoOlabisi said: medically and academically, gender was interchangeable with sex (unless qualified as in 'gender roles'). along comes a social movement and (intentionally?) confuses matters by making a distinction where there wasn't one historically. that should never have happened and we'd all be in a better place if it hadn't. this is very similar to the way 'disease' and 'disorder' were used interchangeably. whether you think a distinction is due, after a certain threshold of professional and colloquial adoption, it is more useful to use a different term than insist on the rapid adoption of the distinction. Did you note Dawkins Republican comment? I think that makes his view pretty clear don't you? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyche101 Posted April 11 #82 Share Posted April 11 4 hours ago, pellinore said: I'm pretty sure Rowling doesn't see transwomen as a threat. She just doesn't see them as women. And I agree with her views that we should not discriminate and should respect other people's views etc. But just because someone identifies as something (a cat, a parrot, or whatever), doesn't mean they are one. They just identify as one. Strewth. She makes out that the transgender community is indeed an immediate threat, and uses the same tactics the boorish right wingers use here. Singling out the absolute worst examples and portraying them as a norm. Yet she says she may well have taken that path herself in her younger years. Does that make her a potential threat considering that mindset? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pellinore Posted April 11 Author #83 Share Posted April 11 (edited) JKR is doubling down: JK Rowling has said she won't forgive Harry Potter stars Daniel Radcliffe and Emma Watson after slamming celebrities who 'cosied up to a movement intent on eroding women's hard-won rights'. The multi-millionaire author hit out at stars who use their 'platforms to cheer on the transitioning of minors' after the release of the long-awaited Cass report into gender treatment in the UK. The vocal women's rights campaigner said people who supported gender transitioning in children should apologise to 'traumatised detransitioners and vulnerable women reliant on single sex spaces'. JK Rowling says she WON'T forgive Daniel Radcliffe and Emma Watson for their stance in the trans debate - and says they should apologise to 'traumatised detransitioners and vulnerable women' not her | Daily Mail Online Edited April 11 by pellinore 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyche101 Posted April 11 #84 Share Posted April 11 9 minutes ago, pellinore said: JKR is doubling down: JK Rowling has said she won't forgive Harry Potter stars Daniel Radcliffe and Emma Watson after slamming celebrities who 'cosied up to a movement intent on eroding women's hard-won rights'. The multi-millionaire author hit out at stars who use their 'platforms to cheer on the transitioning of minors' after the release of the long-awaited Cass report into gender treatment in the UK. The vocal women's rights campaigner said people who supported gender transitioning in children should apologise to 'traumatised detransitioners and vulnerable women reliant on single sex spaces'. JK Rowling says she WON'T forgive Daniel Radcliffe and Emma Watson for their stance in the trans debate - and says they should apologise to 'traumatised detransitioners and vulnerable women' not her | Daily Mail Online What a strange thing to say! Why would they apologise to her? They are more popular, more famous and no doubt make more money. What reason would they have to suck up to a mean old woman? I think she's getting worse. Now she's attacking the people who made her famous. They will get more support than she does. And seen as better human beings. I think she's her own worst enemy. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsnotoutthere Posted April 11 #85 Share Posted April 11 (edited) 19 hours ago, Kittens Are Jerks said: Rowling's past experience has clearly had an impact, so I can certainly understand her concerns about the safety of women. Her worries, however, are based on a false dilemma. Like Rowling, I too am a cisgender woman, but unlike her, I know that a fear of trans people is nowhere near rational. They are not the threat she and others think they are. Indeed, not only have trans women been at the front of many struggles for women’s rights, many are also subject to similar forms of discrimination and misogyny, only worse. Did you know that in the majority of US states it's still considered a valid legal defence to murder a trans person if you found yourself attracted to them? This is the kind of thing irrational fears and prejudice toward trans people results in. It's downright horrifying. https://www.lgbtmap.org/equality-maps/panic_defense_bans https://transcrimeuk.com/ Read the details.... child abuse seems quite popular. Edited April 11 by itsnotoutthere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsnotoutthere Posted April 11 #86 Share Posted April 11 (edited) 5 hours ago, psyche101 said: She makes out that the transgender community is indeed an immediate threat, and uses the same tactics the boorish right wingers use here. Singling out the absolute worst examples and portraying them as a norm. Yet she says she may well have taken that path herself in her younger years. Does that make her a potential threat considering that mindset? Interestingly, JK Rowling has always been left wing in her political leanings, however with all due credit, she realises that some things are more important than politics. But we agree on one thing, the left have jumped on the trans cult and made it political to further their own authoritarian anti free speech agenda, it's no wonder they're cheering on this draconian legislation. But hey, being called 'right winger' should be worn as a badge of honour when you look at the alternative these days. To paraphrase a popular meme regarding the militant left.... "everything I hate is a Nazi" Edited April 11 by itsnotoutthere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DayoOlabisi Posted April 11 #87 Share Posted April 11 9 hours ago, psyche101 said: Did you note Dawkins Republican comment? I think that makes his view pretty clear don't you? i wasn't responding to dawkins' comment, but more commenting on the same thing he was commenting on. i don't really know or care what his angle is or what team he's on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pellinore Posted April 11 Author #88 Share Posted April 11 4 hours ago, psyche101 said: What a strange thing to say! Why would they apologise to her? They are more popular, more famous and no doubt make more money. What reason would they have to suck up to a mean old woman? I think she's getting worse. Now she's attacking the people who made her famous. They will get more support than she does. And seen as better human beings. I think she's her own worst enemy. Tbh, I have no idea what JKR's motives might be, or what her background is. I know she gets a lot of support on Mumsnet UK: Conversations about JK Rowling | Mumsnet 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pellinore Posted April 11 Author #89 Share Posted April 11 (edited) Ex UK PM Boris Johnson has praised JK Rowling, calling her a "modern saint": JK Rowling just says what most people “secretly think” about gender, Boris Johnson has said. Speaking at a conservative conference in Ottawa, Mr Johnson on Wednesday hailed JK Rowling as a “modern saint” for her stance on transgender women and claimed that her views on gender are “what 95 per cent of the population secretly think”. Boris Johnson: JK Rowling says what most people secretly think about gender (msn.com) Edited April 11 by pellinore 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittens Are Jerks Posted April 11 #90 Share Posted April 11 (edited) 23 hours ago, pellinore said: I'm pretty sure Rowling doesn't see transwomen as a threat. She just doesn't see them as women. Of course she sees trans women as a threat. Why else would she perpetuate false narratives such as trans women being predators? 23 hours ago, pellinore said: But just because someone identifies as something (a cat, a parrot, or whatever), doesn't mean they are one. They just identify as one. That over-used anti-trans argument is a ridiculous false equivalence. Identifying as an animal (or plant, inanimate object, etc.) is an active choice. A person’s gender identity is not a choice. Edited April 11 by Kittens Are Jerks Minor edits. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pellinore Posted April 11 Author #91 Share Posted April 11 19 hours ago, Kittens Are Jerks said: Part of your uneasiness may have something to do with the way in which you view trans women. They are not men in dresses. They are women who were assigned male at birth. They have a female gender identity. As for how to address them, address them by their name. If you don't know it, ask. If you're unsure about their correct pronoun, again, all you have to do is ask. In short, treat them as you would any other person — politely, respectfully and with kindness. What would close down all the discussion and grief would be to make gender transition legally binding. Atm in the UK you can pay for a "gender recognition certificate" that amends your birth certificate to show your new gender. But it isn't universally recognised: sports bodies are still arguing about trans athletes, forensic statisticians argue that they give false stats (murder and rape are generally male crimes, so does one of these crimes committed by a transwoman get recorded as perpetrated by a male of a female?), judges get grief if they sentence a transwoman to a female jail and the women complain they feel unsafe - it's endless. If gender transition was recognised in law to be legally binding everyone would know where they stood. All the debate and anguish would end. Sports clubs could no longer try to discriminate against trans athletes, and the new statistical norm would prevail. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittens Are Jerks Posted April 11 #92 Share Posted April 11 8 hours ago, pellinore said: Tbh, I have no idea what JKR's motives might be, or what her background is. I know she gets a lot of support on Mumsnet UK: Conversations about JK Rowling | Mumsnet I had to research Mumsnet as I wasn't familiar with them. and to my shock! (no, not really) found that they're known for hosting transphobic content. No wonder they support Rowling lol. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumsnet 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pellinore Posted April 11 Author #93 Share Posted April 11 15 minutes ago, Kittens Are Jerks said: A person’s gender identity is not a choice. I'm pretty certain it is. Being androgynous isn't a choice, being homosexual isn't a choice, being bisexual isn't a choice, but choosing your gender is. By definition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pellinore Posted April 11 Author #94 Share Posted April 11 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Kittens Are Jerks said: I had to research Mumsnet as I wasn't familiar with them. and to my shock! (no, not really) found that they're known for hosting transphobic content. No wonder they support Rowling lol. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumsnet You should get to know them! AIBU is a hoot! They have some of the funniest posts on the internet, some intentionally, some inadvertently. Some with profound pathos and bathos as well, but often very entertaining. The likes of the Mail journos trawl the threads for material. I don't know what sense of humour you have, but for some of us, Mumsnet often gives a laugh. Edited April 11 by pellinore 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittens Are Jerks Posted April 11 #95 Share Posted April 11 17 minutes ago, pellinore said: But it isn't universally recognised: sports bodies are still arguing about trans athletes, forensic statisticians argue that they give false stats (murder and rape are generally male crimes, so does one of these crimes committed by a transwoman get recorded as perpetrated by a male of a female?), judges get grief if they sentence a transwoman to a female jail and the women complain they feel unsafe - it's endless. You've raised a good point regarding crimes committed by trans women and how they're attributed. I've been doing some research after @itsnotoutthere posted the following link: https://transcrimeuk.com/ and found that in many instances of trans women sex offenders, the offenders were legally male (as they were early into their transition) when they were charged, convicted and incarcerated. In some cases, they were placed in a female prison even though they had spent more time presenting as men than women. I'm still looking into this issue but there is not much in the way of information and statistics. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittens Are Jerks Posted April 11 #96 Share Posted April 11 50 minutes ago, pellinore said: I'm pretty certain it is. Being androgynous isn't a choice, being homosexual isn't a choice, being bisexual isn't a choice, but choosing your gender is. By definition. I dunno. I just spent 10 minutes trying to change my gender and couldn't. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pellinore Posted April 11 Author #97 Share Posted April 11 6 minutes ago, Kittens Are Jerks said: I dunno. I just spent 10 minutes trying to change my gender and couldn't. Now you've got it! This way is funnier, isn't it? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittens Are Jerks Posted April 11 #98 Share Posted April 11 1 minute ago, pellinore said: Now you've got it! This way is funnier, isn't it? Indeed. But now I feel like a failure and I don't know any trans people I can call for tips. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyche101 Posted April 11 #99 Share Posted April 11 14 hours ago, itsnotoutthere said: Interestingly, JK Rowling has always been left wing in her political leanings, however with all due credit, she realises that some things are more important than politics. Where? She's jumped on the conservative right wing band wagon. Even crazy people can see the left is more peaceful than the right. 14 hours ago, itsnotoutthere said: But we agree on one thing, the left have jumped on the trans cult and made it political to further their own authoritarian anti free speech agenda, it's no wonder they're cheering on this draconian legislation. Please explain how we are in agreement. You're facetious comment is just a testament to your continually advertised stupidity. 14 hours ago, itsnotoutthere said: But hey, being called 'right winger' should be worn as a badge of honour when you look at the alternative these days. To paraphrase a popular meme regarding the militant left.... "everything I hate is a Nazi" No, there's no honour in the right wing. You have nothing to offer but really stupid memes, because the right can't meme, and idiot X posts. Your just a social media junky. You post clown world often and we all know that's because you are a clown. You've got nothing. You let yourself down if anything. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyche101 Posted April 11 #100 Share Posted April 11 10 hours ago, DayoOlabisi said: i wasn't responding to dawkins' comment, but more commenting on the same thing he was commenting on. i don't really know or care what his angle is or what team he's on. No o don't think you were commenting on the same thing. I don't think you are Dawkins have anything in common particularly on this front. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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