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The Spirituality of Pagans and Non-Believers


Guyver

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On 4/2/2024 at 4:52 AM, Guyver said:

I don’t claim to be an actual practicing Pagan.  So, if there are some reading this thread, please accept my apologies, I know that formally, I probably fail at describing Paganism.  But, I do consider myself at least partially Pagan, partially Spiritual, and fully Hopeful Agnostic.  Anyway. I am also a non-believer so I believe I am qualified to speak from that perspective.  So, I welcome a discussion from anyone who understands or practices Paganism, those who consider themselves spiritual, or non-believers.

Paganism is dead. Nobody knows anymore what they actually believed. Chances are it varied significantly from region to region. Fact is there was no dogma and no institution.

What we have is Roman and forward from the European area and earlier than that you'd have to look at the 'sand people' because stuff of them survived in the dried conditions and ours rotted in the wet soil. Also writing was invented in ME/Asia and the West reached literacy around the 1850s.

But I mean there is some cool stuff. Stuff that appears to be 'a global thing', mostly archetypes and spirits of nature, places and people that guard or 'influence' the living. I mean sure folks were dumb back then and thought disease are those spirits and that the Wind was a divine force etc ie they sure overdid it in most regards and from a modern perspective is all just very superstitious, but...

Spirit and consciousness for sure go together. It is still proverbial that enterprises, people and places have a certain spirit. That's the only real magic that has proven to be somewhat working: the mind-set is often the decisive factor in success.

There is a lot of inspiration I can personally draw from looking into it. Not in the details because it is just almost unbearable if you're not used to this out-dated way of language usage. But there is this awesome German mythologist Michael Köhlmeier who has spend all his life working through his stories and I love that, it has given me a lot.

Because the advantage 'paganism' has to our Christian lore is that even the gods **** up and are after all 'only human', what matters always and again is why and how you do the things you do. And a lot of learning to accept that this world/life/cosmos has a lot of agents and people 'who want something and are living, pursuing their own interests' that it is just not possible that 'thy will be done' focused on one single entity will ever happen... What happens is always a cacaphony of a myriad of wills that ellbow the fruits of their labour into existence.

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12 hours ago, Guyver said:

Existential crisis.  Thank you for the question.  What happened to me is simple.  Have you ever heard that song by Sting called, “If I Ever Lose My Faith in You?” Well, that happened to me.  I lost my faith in a person first, someone I dearly loved…..then….probably at least ten years later I lost my faith in the Bible.  A few years after that I lost my faith in Christianity, which I had identified with since I was 17.  That’s what did me in.  But, since I’m not actually done….I’m still going on lost, but having a good time along the way.  And, I need to change that about myself.  I really know I do.  I need discipline, less drinking, and way more exercise.  I am actually embarrassed about how soft I’ve become.  Anyway…thanks for listening and peace be with you.

You know that requiring more discipline idea is a christian guilt thing and you can let it go.  I agree, you drink too much.   Start with one bad habit you have and change it to a good habit.  You feel the need to drink, take a walk instead.   Then you are getting some exercise and not drinking.   When you feel guilty about something re-examine the circumstances and figure out what you can do differently or whether you may have misinterpreted someone else's words or actions.   

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On 4/2/2024 at 6:25 PM, Piney said:

Marcus Aurelius was called a "pagan" by Church Fathers and he was a Stoic.

Marcus Aurelius was for me one of the most impressive philosophers. Ànd an emperor...

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9 hours ago, Piney said:

Tank gasket? They are a pain and if it's not seated right you get a earful because someone got a wet ass. 

Your rambling made me laugh this morning. I needed that. 😄

Lol.  Yes, tank gasket.  You know, it has occurred to me that a person with old style toilets could convert them to semi low flow with a hack.  You know how the fill valve and handle are on the left side of the tank internally?  What if a person were to take….say a large Gatorade bottle made of sturdy plastic, fill it with some medium sized stones, too large to go down the toilet should the plastic bottle fail….fill it up the rest of the way with water, and seal the top.  Place the plastic bottle on the right side of the flapper where there is room for it.  The volume of the container would displace a significant amount of water from inside the tank, thus requiring less water to refill it.  Does that make sense?  It seems like it should work to me.

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PS.  You know that I experiment I said I was going to redo?  It’s overcast now, but if it clears, I can do it tonight.  If not, there is rain forecast for the next two days, and so it may take me a few days to redo it.

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1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

Marcus Aurelius was for me one of the most impressive philosophers. Ànd an emperor...

I absolutely agree.

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1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

Marcus Aurelius was for me one of the most impressive philosophers. Ànd an emperor...

He was one of the greatest emperors in my book. I have his "Meditations" sitting next to me. The Christians demonized him because he didn't take their stupid ****. 

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1 hour ago, Guyver said:

Lol.  Yes, tank gasket.  You know, it has occurred to me that a person with old style toilets could convert them to semi low flow with a hack.  You know how the fill valve and handle are on the left side of the tank internally?  What if a person were to take….say a large Gatorade bottle made of sturdy plastic, fill it with some medium sized stones, too large to go down the toilet should the plastic bottle fail….fill it up the rest of the way with water, and seal the top.  Place the plastic bottle on the right side of the flapper where there is room for it.  The volume of the container would displace a significant amount of water from inside the tank, thus requiring less water to refill it.  Does that make sense?  It seems like it should work to me.

I always put a red brick in the tank. It's a old ranch hack to conserve water that's been around since at least the 60s. 

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Stoicism has a lot to offer. Even if you don't go all in.

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22 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Stoicism has a lot to offer. Even if you don't go all in.

"Loss is nothing else but change. In this Universal Nature rejoices and by her all things come to pass as well."

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“First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you have to do.” – Epictetus

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3 hours ago, Piney said:

"Loss is nothing else but change. In this Universal Nature rejoices and by her all things come to pass as well."

How are you holding up?

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3 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Stoicism has a lot to offer. Even if you don't go all in.

Straight to the point, real. 

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On 4/2/2024 at 2:07 PM, Guyver said:

In other words….I believe in something….but I don’t know what it is.  That is my faith.

I'm exactly the same, I know there is something, but not sure what it really is. I think this is a sensible take because nobody knows. People follow scriptures but who wrote them and I'm sure they don't really know either and are just trying to make earthly sense of it, the difference is me and you too by the sounds of it are happy to live without that misguided guidance.

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Otis.. :) | The andy griffith show, Andy griffith, Favorite tv shows

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Life ticks and ticks away. We fret and stress over the most trival of things, but we're going to vanish one day. Leaving only a memory behind that will be a shadow of who people thought we were. That to will disappear as well. 

Death is the only truth in life, the only thing certain. We are blessed with life, a life that only exist once. Why waste it on stressing over superficial things? Just do your best and make the most of it. Life isn't a game, no one wins. Life is just life. 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Guyver said:

Lol.  Yes, tank gasket.  You know, it has occurred to me that a person with old style toilets could convert them to semi low flow with a hack.  You know how the fill valve and handle are on the left side of the tank internally?  What if a person were to take….say a large Gatorade bottle made of sturdy plastic, fill it with some medium sized stones, too large to go down the toilet should the plastic bottle fail….fill it up the rest of the way with water, and seal the top.  Place the plastic bottle on the right side of the flapper where there is room for it.  The volume of the container would displace a significant amount of water from inside the tank, thus requiring less water to refill it.  Does that make sense?  It seems like it should work to me.

Many people use a brick, or any dense object that will fit without interfering with the flush valve, and flapper. It's called displacement. 

Edited by Hankenhunter
Clarity
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I was able to redo the experiment I mentioned, and I’m going to stand corrected, by correcting myself.  The measurements were relatively consistent (within a few degrees) with a compass reading.  That is taking a baseline reading, then moving twenty feet south take a reading, then 20 feet north…measure.  The perspective does change significantly by observation and perspective, but not by degree measurements.  I will say though that when I observe the moon rise, especially on a full moon, twenty five feet does change the visual perspective completely…but since I just measured the sun with no variation, I think it’s fair to say that the same types of consistent measurement would occur with the moon.  Point being, a small shift in the position of the observer changes the visual perspective completely, but by measurement of degrees there is little variation.  I do want to actually measure the moon at some point just to verify those results.  FWIW.

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3 minutes ago, Guyver said:

I was able to redo the experiment I mentioned, and I’m going to stand corrected, by correcting myself.  The measurements were relatively consistent (within a few degrees) with a compass reading.  That is taking a baseline reading, then moving twenty feet south take a reading, then 20 feet north…measure.  The perspective does change significantly by observation and perspective, but not by degree measurements.  I will say though that when I observe the moon rise, especially on a full moon, twenty five feet does change the visual perspective completely…but since I just measured the sun with no variation, I think it’s fair to say that the same types of consistent measurement would occur with the moon.  Point being, a small shift in the position of the observer changes the visual perspective completely, but by measurement of degrees there is little variation.  I do want to actually measure the moon at some point just to verify those results.  FWIW.

So the size of the object, plus distance away plays a big part in your calculations? 

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9 minutes ago, Hankenhunter said:

Many people use a brick, or any dense object that will fit without interfering with the flush valve, and flapper. It's called displacement. 

Right.  Wasn’t it Archimedes who famously proved that and then got so excited supposedly jumped out of the tub and ran naked through the streets shouting about it?  Help me remember the rule?  Was it the mass of the object equals the displacement?  Something like that.  I was just wondering about the difference between mass and volume, and wondering if a small heavy object like a brick would cause more or less displacement than an object of about the same weight (like the gatorade bottle) but it has a larger volume.  What do you think?

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I think the larger bottle with greater volume would displace more water than a brick of the same weight.  That’s my guess.

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9 minutes ago, Hankenhunter said:

So the size of the object, plus distance away plays a big part in your calculations? 

No, not the size.  What I was really trying to explain is that….let’s say you are looking at a full moon rising while standing in your back yard. From a certain position as you observe the moon it looks one way visually.  Then, if you move just a few feet away and look at it again, from a visual perspective it doesn’t even look the same sometimes.  So, I thought to measure the setting sun from different perspectives and see if there were degrees of measurement different in each different spot, to see it that would explain that change of perspective view I was attempting to describe.  So, I made measurements from a stable platform from three different positions about twenty feet away, and I found the sun set in almost the exact place according to the compass.  It was almost exactly due west tonight. I hope that explains what I was attempting to do.

 

IMG_0123.jpeg

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Just now, Guyver said:

I think the larger bottle with greater volume would displace more water than a brick of the same weight.  That’s my guess.

Your right. But displacement won't change if you add more weight inside the bottle. Only a larger, or smaller bottle will change the displacement. 

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2 minutes ago, Hankenhunter said:

Your right. But displacement won't change if you add more weight inside the bottle. Only a larger, or smaller bottle will change the displacement. 

I spoke too soon on this. You'll be able to fine tune the displacement simply by squeezing some of the air/water out of the bottle, then replacing the cap while still squeezed. As long as it still Sinks. 

My apologies for dragging you off topic. 

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16 minutes ago, Hankenhunter said:

I spoke too soon on this. You'll be able to fine tune the displacement simply by squeezing some of the air/water out of the bottle, then replacing the cap while still squeezed. As long as it still Sinks. 

My apologies for dragging you off topic. 

I don’t think you were dragging anyone or anything of topic here.  We were kind of discussing science, and for many people science shapes a big part of what they believe.  I am the same.  Good science helps us understand the world, and that is a form of truth that can be appreciated as I see it.

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