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The Spirituality of Pagans and Non-Believers


Guyver

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17 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Woke is a memetic virus, a disease of the mind. 

Woke is funded by by the Chinese Communist Party as a Psyop to undermine its Western enemies.

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16 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Ha so you admit that vegan woke virtue signalers are engaging in virtuous conduct?  (you don't have to answer that, just trying to reinforce why discussions of whatever the hell 'woke' means this week belong on another thread)

No, allow me to explain.  They are involved in virtue signaling, not actual virtue.  You have to agree with their value system to agree it is virtue they are practicing, hence your position says more about you than me LG.

16 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Personally I think virtuous conduct blows away 'enlightenment' as far as what should be lauded and praised.  

Keep digging that hole LG.  What do you even think enlightenment is?  You clearly don't understand virtuous conduct.'

16 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Enlightenment can be good for people but it is all about the specific person which lends it an air of selfishness

ORLY? Do tell. You really don't see any immediate contradiction in what you are suggesting here?

16 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

one thing I think the Bible got right was, taken generally, that we'll know them by their fruits.

And what are your fruits LG?  

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Love it.  Enlightenment is not about virtuous conduct alone.  Not by a long chalk.  Otherwise all those vegan woke virtue signalers would be enlightened, when they are actually going in the wrong direction.  Anyone who disagrees can DM me to find out why.

I am not a vegan as I take milk products, but admire this lifestyle and philosophy as it has a force-multiplier effect for good. 

The lifestock industry is considered to emit about 11-17 per cent of global greenhouse gases , responsible for global warming and aberrant weather patterns and increased frequency of super-storms and cyclones that cause heavy economic damage.

 Livestock emit almost 64% of total ammonia emissions, contributing significantly to acid rain and to acidification of ecosystems. It is a major cause of water and air pollution.

It is a major cause of deforestation, as the land then is used for cattle-raising and growing cereals to feed them.  Vegetarian food alone can support a much larger population than nonvegetarian food as per statistics. 

As they are seen as mere food commodities, helpless animals and birds while alive are treated repugnantly by the industry workers and you can see a large number of such  videos in the internet depicting such behavior. It is obviously cowardly and dishonorable to harm the helpless for fun and they would obviously not do the same to a strong lion or tiger.

Cruelty to animals and birds are considered to have a correlation with crime as well.

The Macdonald triad links cruelty to animals, obsession with fire-setting, and persistent bedwetting past the age of five, to violent behaviors, particularly homicidal behavior and sexually predatory behavior. 

In Hinduism, the Ashwamedha yagna is a great austere practice done by kings of the past to gain spiritual merit enough to attain heavenly astral dimensions and a better rebirth in auspicious conditions .

The Hindu scripture, Manu smriti states thus:   "The man who offers a horse-sacrifice every day for a hundred years, and the man who does not eat meat, the two of them reap the same fruit of good deeds. "

I used to wonder how mere abstinence from meat can reap such spiritual merit, but seeing the heavy damage caused by the livestock industry to the world as per scientific research and statistics, I think now it is indeed a highly meritorious deed.

 

Edited by Ajay0
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ajay0 said:

I am not a vegan as I take milk products, but admire this lifestyle and philosophy as it has a force-multiplier effect for good. 

The lifestock industry is considered to emit about 11-17 per cent of global greenhouse gases , responsible for global warming and aberrant weather patterns and increased frequency of super-storms and cyclones.

Okay, so what happens to the livestock if we stop farming them?  Do we let them run wild across the farmland that feeds the newly vegan population?  Or do we mass slaughter them because they are now an unproductive menace to agriculture?  There were once great herds of wild cattle that ran across the plains of the globe, but we need those plains for agriculture now.

As for Global Warming, we know how to fix it.  The process is called Iron Fertilization, but nobody has the testes to do it, despite the fact is it cheap and extremely effective.  So much for Green Politics, I am sorry to say.  We literally have the answer and they won't undertake it.  Even a single charity could do it, but nobody will.

1 hour ago, Ajay0 said:

It is a major cause of deforestation, as the land then is used for cattle-raising and growing cereals to feed them.  

And will we have more or less deforestation when we release millions of cattle into the wilds to fend for themselves?

1 hour ago, Ajay0 said:

Vegetarian food alone can support a much larger population than nonvegetarian food as per statistics. 

Except that vegetarianism is not viable for human health for most of the population.  Most people quickly become anemic.  Anemic mothers terminate their pregnancies, and anemic people are more susceptible to diseases.  The other thing is, the widespread consumption of meat led our branch of genus Homo to develop large effective brains.  The protein and fats of meat and fish were essential fuel and building materials in our development as a sentient species as meat is a high energy food that allowed us to grow human intelligence.  If we stop earing meat, we will gradually degenerate as a species.

1 hour ago, Ajay0 said:

As they are seen as mere food commodities, helpless animals and birds while alive are treated repugnantly by the industry workers and you can see a large number of such  videos in the internet depicting such behavior.

Nature is writ red in tooth and claw.   For millions of years our mammalian forebears scuttled in the underbrush, terrified of the giant saurians who have since evolved into chickens, that we now eat.  The wheel of Karma grinds slow but sure.  You like Hinduism, cop that.  

I agree that harming an animal for no reason is a bad thing.  On the other hand, you will see tigers and lions being kind and playful to baby goats just so they can lure their frantic mother into range to kill her, and her child as well.  Nature is cruel.  Pretending otherwise is stupid.

Humans have placed themselves on the top of the food chain, and you want to slip down again Ajay.

1 hour ago, Ajay0 said:

It is obviously cowardly and dishonorable to harm the helpless for fun and they would obviously not do the same to a strong lion or tiger.

You'd be surprised.  There are plenty of people who enjoy being cruel to big cats, and plenty of big cats that are bad to humans too. 

1 hour ago, Ajay0 said:

The Macdonald triad links cruelty to animals, obsession with fire-setting, and persistent bedwetting past the age of five, to violent behaviors, particularly homicidal behavior and sexually predatory behavior. 

The MacDonald Triad was produced in 1963.  Psychology has moved on since then.  It is largely obsolete.  These days psychology points to the humiliation and abuse of children as the primary cause of eventual serial killers, and this behavior is found in EVERY society, even vegetarian ones,

1 hour ago, Ajay0 said:

In Hinduism, the Ashwamedha yagna is a great austere practice done by kings of the past to gain spiritual merit enough to attain heavenly astral dimensions and a better rebirth in auspicious conditions .

And why should we treat this as being something other than a stupid superstition on par with the idiocy of other religions?

1 hour ago, Ajay0 said:

The Hindu scripture, Manu smriti states thus:   "The man who offers a horse-sacrifice every day for a hundred years, and the man who does not eat meat, the two of them reap the same fruit of good deeds.

So if you sacrifice 100 horses a day for one year, you will overtake the vegan's entire lifetime within one year, and feed vast numbers of people.  Point taken.  

Remember also, just because plants can't scream, doesn't mean that they aren't alive and can't suffer and feel pain.  Every breath you take kills millions of tiny micro-organisms.  To live and draw breath is to slaughter countless trillions.  You think yourself virtuous because the things you kill don't have a face.  You are a hypocrite, whose compassion is fostered in a total ignorance of science, and a lack of vision and imagination about what life is.  If you care so much about other life forms, and their well being, it is your moral obligation to stop breathing.

Or stop being a spiritual materialist who is obsessed with dietary restrictions that are irrelevant to enlightenment.

 

Edited by Alchopwn
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Posted (edited)

Remember that Ashoka, the greatest Buddhist Emperor of India killed over 1000 animals a day to feed his court.  Most of them were cattle.  The sacredness of cattle and emphasis on vegetarianism only begins under the Guptas, who couldn't manage the economy, and had to save the herds from destruction during a terrible famine.

Edited by Alchopwn
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31 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

Okay, so what happens to the livestock if we stop farming them?

They can be sent to sanctuaries to live out their natural lives and sterilized to ensure no progeny.

Quote

 

  Do we let them run wild across the farmland that feeds the newly vegan population? 

 

A vegetarian population would need a much lesser volume of land than a nonvegetarian one. So there will be abundant space for the farm animals in sanctuaries till they die out . Sterilization will ensure no progeny as well. 

https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets

Quote

 

Research suggests that if everyone shifted to a plant-based diet we would reduce global land use for agriculture by 75%. This large reduction of agricultural land use would be possible thanks to a reduction in land used for grazing and a smaller need for land to grow crops.

 

 

Quote

 

Or do we mass murder them because they are now an unproductive menace to agriculture?

 

Euthanasia can be adopted for highly unhealthy animals due to the large number of chemicals and steroids fed them to make them grow faster. 

This could also be the reason why nonvegetarian food is assocated with higher levels of cardiovascular diseases and cancer, the highest killers in the western world.

Scientific research has shown a correlation between vegetarian food and lower rates of cancer and cardiovascular diseases.

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2013-01-30-vegetarianism-can-reduce-risk-heart-disease-third

https://www.mdanderson.org/publications/focused-on-health/vegetarian-diet-and-cancer-risk.h31Z1591413.html#:~:text=Can becoming vegetarian or vegan,should be plant-based foods.

Vegetarianism has also been linked with lower rates of diabetes, dementia and decreased symptoms of asthma..
 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6153574/

https://www.pcrm.org/news/health-nutrition/vegetarians-have-lower-dementia-risk


 

Quote

 

  There were once great herds of wild cattle that ran across the plains of the globe, but we need those plains for agriculture now.

 


Earth having around 8 billion people at present has itself decimated animal populations by nearly 70 percent. Half of the world’s rainforest has been
destroyed in just one century.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/animal-populations-plummeted-by-nearly-70-percent-last-50-years-new-report/

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/oct/30/humanity-wiped-out-animals-since-1970-major-report-finds

https://www.theworldcounts.com/challenges/planet-earth/forests-and-deserts/rate-of-deforestation
 

Nature is highly intelligent and I won't be surprised if it sees the human species as an abnormal aberration that has to be removed.

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2 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Woke is funded by by the Chinese Communist Party as a Psyop to undermine its Western enemies.

That doesn't surprise me a bit, it is exactly how Asian cultures would handle a situation like this. Most people have no idea how different the thought process is between the West and East Asian culture's. :yes:

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9 hours ago, Sherapy said:

How are you holding up?

I'm not. 

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Steak, eggs, fish all nutrient dense and give long satiety. I've done the vegan/veggie thing. Endless hunger and malnutrition. Never again.

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1 hour ago, Piney said:

I'm not. 

Sorry my brother!!:cry:

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6 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

No, allow me to explain.  They are involved in virtue signaling, not actual virtue.  You have to agree with their value system to agree it is virtue they are practicing, hence your position says more about you than me LG.

You're being over-defensive about something that I'm pretty sure you mis-stated.  Here's what you said:

Quote

Enlightenment is not about virtuous conduct alone.  Not by a long chalk.  Otherwise all those vegan woke virtue signalers would be enlightened,

You are thus saying that vegan woke virtue signalers would be enlightened if enlightenment was only about virtuous conduct.  Thus, you have stated that these signalers engage in virtuous conduct, which is what I posted.  Don't think that's what you probably meant, but it is what you typed.  It doesn't have anything to do with wokeism, enlightenment or whatever you think 'virtuous conduct' is, it has to do with semantics and logic and your sentence construction.

6 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Remember also, just because plants can't scream, doesn't mean that they aren't alive and can't suffer and feel pain.

True as you've stated it, it's the fact that plants don't have pain receptors or a central nervous system that means they don't feel pain.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Woke is funded by by the Chinese Communist Party as a Psyop to undermine its Western enemies.

I am reminded of an  episode of The Orville where they visit a planet that is ruled by likes and dislikes on social media.  Everyone is on their device 24/7 and judging people based on some story that never has all the details.  If enough dislikes happen on a story the person in that story is prosecuted, which entails the person being presented on media for people to vote guilty or not guilty.   It is a forboding of the future, and China has already started it.   We all need to limit our exposure to the outrage on social media.   Google, Microsoft and Zuckerberg are not our friends.  They get rich off making us insane.

Edited by Desertrat56
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Posted (edited)

I don’t know what to think about our eating so much meat… I know it almost makes me cry to drive by HUGE stock pens FULL of starving, Thirsty, cattle standing and lying about in their own manure!  It’s completely CRUEL!    Or to see pens of practically baby Sheep waiting to become lamb chops!!!      My wife won’t eat cow or pork…so, I rarely do either…we do eat fish, chicken, turkey, eggs, milk.   I just made toast &eggs&turkey breakfast sausages . :)    

Edited by lightly
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9 minutes ago, lightly said:

I don’t know what to think about our eating so much meat… I know it almost makes me cry to drive by HUGE stock pens FULL of starving, Thirsty, cattle standing and lying about in their own manure!  It’s completely CRUEL!    Or to see pens of practically baby Sheep waiting to become lamb chops!!!      My wife won’t eat cow or pork…so, I rarely do either…we do eat fish, chicken, turkey, eggs, milk.   I just made toast &eggs&turkey breakfast sausages . :)    

Those cattle are not starving.  If they were, they would not be meat.   The cattle growers do feed and water their cattle.  There are laws about how food animals are treated.   The egg producers are worse, the chickens are kept in cages where they can't move around, they lay one egg a day or they are fed food that causes them to lay more and when they are two years old they are sold for meat.    

I don't each much beef and I rarely eat pork.  My main meat is chicken.   The food industry has gone bonkers in the U.S. including how vegetables and fruits are grown and processed.   You can get very little nutrition from most of the vegetables and fruits you buy in the grocery store.

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8 hours ago, Ajay0 said:

They can be sent to sanctuaries to live out their natural lives and sterilized to ensure no progeny.

So you're advocating the deliberate extinction of all farm animals?

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54 minutes ago, Michelle said:

So you're advocating the deliberate extinction of all farm animals?

Not realizing that Buddhist and Sikh martial artists need and are required to eat meat because plant based proteins aren't compleye and lack the enzymes needed to maintain that type of physical activity. 

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22 hours ago, Piney said:

He was one of the greatest emperors in my book. I have his "Meditations" sitting next to me. The Christians demonized him because he didn't take their stupid ****. 

👍

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22 hours ago, Piney said:

He was one of the greatest emperors in my book. I have his "Meditations" sitting next to me. The Christians demonized him because he didn't take their stupid ****. 

A collegue borrowed my book, and I never got it back...

But I have a fastlink on my phone:

https://erenow.org/common/meditations-a-new-translation/

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3 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

👍

How admirable is the soul which is ready and resolved, if it must this moment be released from the body, to be either extinguished or scattered or to persist. This resolve, too, must arise from a specific decision, not out of sheer opposition like the Christians, but after reflection, and with dignity,  and so asto convince others, without histrionic display. 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

Those cattle are not starving.  If they were, they would not be meat.   The cattle growers do feed and water their cattle.  There are laws about how food animals are treated.   The egg producers are worse, the chickens are kept in cages where they can't move around, they lay one egg a day or they are fed food that causes them to lay more and when they are two years old they are sold for meat.    

I don't each much beef and I rarely eat pork.  My main meat is chicken.   The food industry has gone bonkers in the U.S. including how vegetables and fruits are grown and processed.   You can get very little nutrition from most of the vegetables and fruits you buy in the grocery store.

Righto, ya, they do try to put weight on them before slaughter..   but I don’t think they’d loose sleep over a last couple of hungry THIRSTY days for the poor creatures.?    I’ve heard about a lot of weird ways weight is put on pre-mortem .. Here’s a new one that’s become popular…    https://slate.com/technology/2013/02/zilmax-the-cattle-growth-drug-thats-making-beef-more-like-chicken.html#:~:text=Zilmax is a highly effective,final weeks of their lives.

    Yup,  (on the wacky food $ystem)   People used to eat mainly locally grown or harvested foods….  I think the global&nationalfood distribution $ystems are a perfect Model of INEFFICIENCY!?     Much like most of modern society IMO.   Modern energy HOG housing blows my mind!  Most dwellings are multiple times the needed size ..much of it just for  looks  and basically unused.?     Our transportation systems ,especially in and around cities, are also incredibly inefficient and wa$teful     ..imo.   

Edited by lightly
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10 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Steak, eggs, fish all nutrient dense and give long satiety. I've done the vegan/veggie thing. Endless hunger and malnutrition. Never again.

I am an egg man .     Kookookachoo!

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Humans evolved to eat meet. It was the only source for the essential vitamin B-12. The bird and bunny people can enjoy their millet, tofu and bee spit.

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14 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Woke is funded by by the Chinese Communist Party as a Psyop to undermine its Western enemies.

So, woke liberals work for China? 🤔

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28 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

So, woke liberals work for China? 🤔

I always thought the over the top woke liberal convinced Quakers were just doing what the recently converted always do.

Take **** waaay too far.

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33 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

So, woke liberals work for China? 🤔

Did you see the NPR piece on how the Uyghurs deserve what their getting?

 

I'll step away now....😬

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