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Religion pulled apart by Dan Barker


pellinore

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Posted (edited)

I've just seen this. It is powerful. Go to 3:40 for a TL/DR:

 

 

Edited by pellinore
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  • The title was changed to Religion pulled apart by Dan Barker
Posted (edited)

Ugh, how boring. The evangelical atheist are just as bad as the evangelical (insert religion here).

Edited by XenoFish
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Interesting fellow, very animated but coming from an evangelical background you would expect that. 

He has spoken with the best people on the subject so has a decent insight into the subject. 

I admire those who push for answers as opposed to a wilful decent into mindless complacency. It's what pioneers tend to have in common. 

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22 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Ugh, how boring. The evangelical atheist are just as bad as the evangelical (insert religion here).

19 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Interesting fellow, very animated but coming from an evangelical background you would expect that. 

It is not easy breaking free from childhood indoctrination, especially when you are taught that even to question religions inconsistencies is morally wrong or evil. And even more, estranges you from your family. Anger and other negative emotions is a pretty normal response when you finally escape.

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4 minutes ago, pellinore said:

It is not easy breaking free from childhood indoctrination, especially when you are taught that even to question religions inconsistencies is morally wrong or evil. And even more, estranges you from your family. Anger and other negative emotions is a pretty normal response when you finally escape.

Then the vacuum of faith something else grows. Some thing that is often worse and the same fanaticism develop on to another ideology. If you're preaching for a god, you're preaching against one. 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Then the vacuum of faith something else grows. Some thing that is often worse and the same fanaticism develop on to another ideology. If you're preaching for a god, you're preaching against one. 

Yes, morality, empathy, compassion and understanding grows. Instead of bigotry and hatred. Not a bad trade off, overall.

Edited by pellinore
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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, pellinore said:

Yes, morality, empathy, compassion and understanding grows. Instead of bigotry and hatred. Not a bad trade off, overall.

If only it were that simple. People have all kinds of reasons to hate one another without the need for religion. I'd say politics is worse than some religions. Even your examples can grow through faith and belief in a higher power. Making the point rather mute. 

Edited by XenoFish
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2 hours ago, pellinore said:

It is not easy breaking free from childhood indoctrination, especially when you are taught that even to question religions inconsistencies is morally wrong or evil. And even more, estranges you from your family. Anger and other negative emotions is a pretty normal response when you finally escape.

No it isn't. I noticed even the basic concepts tend to root themselves deep even after one rationalised religion. That concept of a higher power lingers. 

Dawkins provides a space for people to talk of they have left religion and have something to share 

 

https://richarddawkins.net/convertscorner/

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Posted (edited)

Glorified wh te tr sh.

Edited by Hammerclaw
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2 hours ago, pellinore said:

Yes, morality, empathy, compassion and understanding grows. Instead of bigotry and hatred. Not a bad trade off, overall.

That's where a secular view naturally leads. It's about viewing the world in a realistic way and working with that. 

It's not well perceived if one needs to be special though. Humans are quite prideful and being wrong about a creator being as well as not being special to some overarching authority can heavily challenge that need to be wanted or loved. It's not welcomed where preconceptions have already created a haven to dwell in. 

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24 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

That's where a secular view naturally leads. It's about viewing the world in a realistic way and working with that. 

It's not well perceived if one needs to be special though. Humans are quite prideful and being wrong about a creator being as well as not being special to some overarching authority can heavily challenge that need to be wanted or loved. It's not welcomed where preconceptions have already created a haven to dwell in. 

Doesn’t everyone feel the need to be wanted and loved?

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34 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

That's where a secular view naturally leads. It's about viewing the world in a realistic way and working with that. 

It's not well perceived if one needs to be special though. 

I agree that the world should be viewed in a realistic way.  I have a question for you though.  Aren’t we special? I mean, is there anything else like us in the known universe?  For good or bad, we have come to dominate this planet since the last ice age.  We are thoughtful and empathetic as Pellinore observed.  We are highly skillful scientifically, technologically, and we are compassionate and philanthropic. Not everyone of course.  We are descended from a long line of ruthless killers.  But, we are advancing.  We are getting better overall, even though it doesn’t seem like it if one reads the news.  

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3 hours ago, pellinore said:

Yes, morality, empathy, compassion and understanding grows. Instead of bigotry and hatred. Not a bad trade off, overall.

I really like what you had to say here Pellinore, and I agree with you completely.  Thank you for saying it. My name is Guyver, I am pleased to meet you.  Pellinore, technically, I am a trained killer. I served in the Forces that guard our country and keep our nation free.  I just want to say that I had what is called a difficult upbringing to say the least.  I came from what Groucho, I mean Hammerclaw would call boarderline wh!te trash.  Yes, I was gifted with some decent genes and I can fight.  I made it onto the Army amateur boxing team. Anyway, by nature I am a kind and compassionate person who believes in helping people.  I would never wish to be violent or aggressive toward anyone unless I had to, and I would never intentionally harm another person unless there was a great and urgent need to do so.  I believe in the motto, “Live and let live.” And, in belief of that motto…it implies a certain amount of mutual respect.  I respect those who are worthy of it.  

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18 minutes ago, Guyver said:

I agree that the world should be viewed in a realistic way.  I have a question for you though.  Aren’t we special? I mean, is there anything else like us in the known universe?  For good or bad, we have come to dominate this planet since the last ice age.  We are thoughtful and empathetic as Pellinore observed.  We are highly skillful scientifically, technologically, and we are compassionate and philanthropic. Not everyone of course.  We are descended from a long line of ruthless killers.  But, we are advancing.  We are getting better overall, even though it doesn’t seem like it if one reads the news.  

I admire your optimism. Hope everything is going well for you, your wife, and your commode. 

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1 minute ago, Hankenhunter said:

I admire your optimism. Hope everything is going well for you, your wife, and your commode. 

I thank you sir.  My wife and I were able to reconcile our differences and make up.  Thank you for remembering.

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I hate to see suffering of any kind.  It disturbs me greatly.  Even these movies that have been so popular for so long, you know…the slasher films?  I hate it.  It is terrible.  They make it so realistic.  I just think it’s very unhealthy and in very poor taste.  Yet,I do understand it.  It is the product of fear.  They’re such things as psycho-killers.  They do exist and they do kill and torture people.  It is the very worst of us.  However, statistically speaking, they make up such a small percentage of the population it’s almost negligible.  By comparison, doctors - you know, people who help people? They make up a much larger percentage of the population.

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46 minutes ago, Guyver said:

Doesn’t everyone feel the need to be wanted and loved?

Of course. Some want to think they know a universal god though. I'm sure you've seen examples of this from our colleagues.

30 minutes ago, Guyver said:

I agree that the world should be viewed in a realistic way.  I have a question for you though.  Aren’t we special? I mean, is there anything else like us in the known universe?

Well yes. Were are a refined product from a long line of ancestors. If it hadn't been us, it would have been modern Neanderthal or Denisovian sapiens across the planet. Realistically, we are the fifth ape.

30 minutes ago, Guyver said:

 For good or bad, we have come to dominate this planet since the last ice age.  We are thoughtful and empathetic as Pellinore observed.  We are highly skillful scientifically, technologically, and we are compassionate and philanthropic. Not everyone of course.  We are descended from a long line of ruthless killers.  But, we are advancing.  We are getting better overall, even though it doesn’t seem like it if one reads the news.  

We have the secular view to thank for the above though. Religious ideology goes hand in hand with conservatism which stagnates society and progress within it. 

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I have to sign off for a bit so I can go do guitar practice, but I just wanted to say this now because I think it pertinent. I was reading an interesting thread on the forum today about an admitted psychopath.  It’s active, you can read it for yourself.  I don’t even think many respondents actually read what the psychopath had to say, but I did.  The psychopath is a she.  She believes she lost two jobs, one as a professor if I recall correctly.  And, her whole point is that she believes her psychopathy helps her survive as a person, and it gives her an edge.  Here’s what she said she believes.  Two things.

1. Avoid identifying with things that are out of your control.

2. Let go of what everyone else thinks.

I just have to say that’s really not bad.  I would say it differently, but….these are things the most successful people in the world believe in.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Guyver said:

I hate to see suffering of any kind.  It disturbs me greatly.  Even these movies that have been so popular for so long, you know…the slasher films?  I hate it.  It is terrible.  They make it so realistic.  I just think it’s very unhealthy and in very poor taste.  Yet,I do understand it.  It is the product of fear.  They’re such things as psycho-killers.  They do exist and they do kill and torture people.  It is the very worst of us.  However, statistically speaking, they make up such a small percentage of the population it’s almost negligible.  By comparison, doctors - you know, people who help people? They make up a much larger percentage of the population.

For me it's the rampant greed, and the addiction it becomes. The inability to stop hoarding money to the detriment of billions of people in so many ways. I may have to give up on the internet because seeing so many people suffering everyday because of unchecked Capitalism, and Corporatism hurts me deep in my soul. Our planet cries out in pain, and there's nothing we can do because the game is rigged.

Edited by Hankenhunter
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2 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Of course. Some want to think they know a universal god though. I'm sure you've seen examples of this from our colleagues.

Sure, but don’t you know?  Everyone who believes in God believes whatever the hell they want to believe about it.  Sure, you have these religions, like Jews, Christian’s and Muslims who in a sense believe the same things, and many of them do follow religious traditions, and they do live by them.  But, that doesn’t mean they are right.  They are worshipping a God from the Bible who believes in animal sacrifice, plus many other abominable and barbaric acts, like the taking of an eye for an eye or a tooth from a tooth.

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1 hour ago, Hankenhunter said:

For me it's the rampant greed, and the addiction it becomes. The inability to stop hoarding money to the detriment of billions of people in so many ways. I may have to give up on the internet because seeing so many people suffering everyday because of unchecked Capitalism, and Corporatism hurts me deep in my soul. Our planet cries out in pain, and there's nothing we can do because the game is rigged.

I don’t know how you can blame corporations.  It’s the governments who are fat and sloppy.  Corporations work to earn a profit, and making a profit is not easy in this modern world. Corporations are like Dobermans, governments are like English Bull Dogs.

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23 minutes ago, Guyver said:

I don’t know how you can blame corporations.  It’s the governments who are fat and sloppy.  Corporations work to earn a profit, and making a profit is not easy in this modern world. Corporations are like Dobermans, governments are like English Bull Dogs.

If you have time, Google corporations that made record profits during Covid 19. It's an eye opener.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Hankenhunter said:

If you have time, Google corporations that made record profits during Covid 19. It's an eye opener.

I believe you.  But at the same time, there were a lot of moms and pops that got washed out and it makes me think government, or maybe it was an enemy attempt, or a natural epidemic, whichever it was, it did change the world and I believe it’s effects are yet to be seen.  

Edited by Guyver
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5 hours ago, Guyver said:

Sure, but don’t you know?  Everyone who believes in God believes whatever the hell they want to believe about it.  Sure, you have these religions, like Jews, Christian’s and Muslims who in a sense believe the same things, and many of them do follow religious traditions, and they do live by them.  But, that doesn’t mean they are right.  They are worshipping a God from the Bible who believes in animal sacrifice, plus many other abominable and barbaric acts, like the taking of an eye for an eye or a tooth from a tooth.

I think that's what I see as attractive about a secular outlook.

In religion you're are directed by a "jealous god" who seems to be fanatically conservative and overbearing. Too much like humans for me to be impressed. 

With a secular outlook it's an appreciation for things for what they are. The skies aren't the realms of the gods, but amazing works of art, the simplicity of evolution is a marvel in itself. Nobody telling you to be grateful for what you have, just being grateful to be here at a time when we can comprehend even a bit of the marvels that the universe provides. Caring for your fellow person because you want to, not because that gets you into heaven. 

Religion actually hijacked man's ideals and parades them as it's contribution to the species, but we had heart before we had religion. 

Not to be confused  with Harte, lol is he that old? 

:ph34r: don't tell him I said that ...

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7 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

I think that's what I see as attractive about a secular outlook.

In religion you're are directed by a "jealous god" who seems to be fanatically conservative and overbearing. Too much like humans for me to be impressed. 

With a secular outlook it's an appreciation for things for what they are. The skies aren't the realms of the gods, but amazing works of art, the simplicity of evolution is a marvel in itself. Nobody telling you to be grateful for what you have, just being grateful to be here at a time when we can comprehend even a bit of the marvels that the universe provides. Caring for your fellow person because you want to, not because that gets you into heaven. 

Religion actually hijacked man's ideals and parades them as it's contribution to the species, but we had heart before we had religion. 

Not to be confused  with Harte, lol is he that old? 

:ph34r: don't tell him I said that ...

@Harte is 175,000 years old give or take a month. But he eats the Jello of Immortality so he only looks like he's in his mid 90s. 

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