Ajay0 Posted April 18 #1 Share Posted April 18 (edited) An insightful article by Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev on understanding mental illness... https://isha.sadhguru.org/en/wisdom/sadhguru-spot/understanding-mental-illness Quote We need to build structures in society where the margin for mental illness is very low. Why I go back pining for the culture that existed in this land is because about 200 to 300 years ago, there were hardly any mentally ill people in this country simply because of certain structures in the society. Slowly, without awareness, we are pulling it down. Today, even in villages, there are psychologically broken people, which was never so in the past. If it happened, it was an extremely negligible percentage of people. The percentage is increasing. You can distinctly see that in so-called “affluent” societies, the percentage is becoming quite high. This is because a human being is a social animal unless he transcends certain things. Either we should work for transcendence or we should create a society which is supportive, which is not demanding. Right now, the social structures that we have created are horribly demanding. This is happening to urban India, but it has happened even more so in the West. If you want to live in America, even if you fast for the next 30 days, your bills will still add up to 3,000 dollars. The society is structured in such a way that it is very demanding on the individual person – someone cannot take a break and just sit down. Not everyone may be capable of continually being on. A whole lot of people need to withdraw from certain things. If there is sufficient sadhana in their life, then you can drive them 24 hours, 365 days because life is brief and we don’t want to sit back. But if there is no sadhana, it is very important that people have space and time. - Sadhguru Edited April 18 by Ajay0 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted April 18 #2 Share Posted April 18 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ajay0 said: An insightful article by Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev on understanding mental illness... https://isha.sadhguru.org/en/wisdom/sadhguru-spot/understanding-mental-illness A viable solution is self care. Edited April 18 by Sherapy 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchopwn Posted April 18 #3 Share Posted April 18 2 hours ago, Ajay0 said: An insightful article by Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev on understanding mental illness... https://isha.sadhguru.org/en/wisdom/sadhguru-spot/understanding-mental-illness Yet more proof that your testicles are more enlightened than Sad Guru, Ajay0. It is obvious that Bad Guru doesn't understand the first thing about modern mental health practices, and wants to usher us to a past golden age that never existed. He has already got his greasepaint, big shoes and red nose on, Ajay; you don't want to join him. 1 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted April 18 #4 Share Posted April 18 2 minutes ago, Alchopwn said: Yet more proof that your testicles are more enlightened than Sad Guru, Ajay0. It is obvious that Bad Guru doesn't understand the first thing about modern mental health practices, and wants to usher us to a past golden age that never existed. He has already got his greasepaint, big shoes and red nose on, Ajay; you don't want to join him. Well said. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted April 18 #5 Share Posted April 18 3 hours ago, Sherapy said: A viable solution is self care. And self care isn't the best idea. 200-300 years ago there was hardly any mentally ill people? He missed the Wars of Religion, the French Revolution and a big mess in Africa, Eastern Europe and on the Steppe. 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted April 18 #6 Share Posted April 18 (edited) 1 hour ago, Piney said: And self care isn't the best idea. 200-300 years ago there was hardly any mentally ill people? He missed the Wars of Religion, the French Revolution and a big mess in Africa, Eastern Europe and on the Steppe. We agree the article isn’t offering much. My two cents: for modern times self care can be viable for some to aid in mental and physical well being. Edited April 18 by Sherapy 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted April 18 #7 Share Posted April 18 52 minutes ago, Sherapy said: We agree the article isn’t offering much. My two cents: for modern times self care can be viable for some to aid in mental and physical well being. But self diagnosis is always bias and should be avoided. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hammerclaw Posted April 18 #8 Share Posted April 18 15 minutes ago, Piney said: But self diagnosis is always bias and should be avoided. Not if it's the clap. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted April 18 #9 Share Posted April 18 Just now, Hammerclaw said: Not if it's the clap. 🤣 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted April 18 #10 Share Posted April 18 (edited) 1 hour ago, Piney said: But self diagnosis is always bias and should be avoided. Very very True, and self reporting is an important tool to help narrow down a diagnosis. On mental health concerns a person should go to a psychiatrist or doctor, period. I meant self care as in stress mgt., sleep, exercise, quality diet, not google diagnosis. 1 hour ago, Piney said: But self diagnosis is always bias and should be avoided. Edited April 18 by Sherapy 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ajay0 Posted April 19 Author #11 Share Posted April 19 Bertrand Russell , British mathematician, philosopher , public intellectual, pacifist and Nobel Prize winner for literature in 1950 had also made similar observations as Sadhguru... "Americans need rest, but do not know it. I believe this to be a large part of the explanation of the crime wave in the United States. "(Ch. 13: Freedom in Society.) ~ Bertrand Russell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted April 19 #12 Share Posted April 19 1 hour ago, Ajay0 said: Bertrand Russell , British mathematician, philosopher , public intellectual, pacifist and Nobel Prize winner for literature in 1950 had also made similar observations as Sadhguru... "Americans need rest, but do not know it. I believe this to be a large part of the explanation of the crime wave in the United States. "(Ch. 13: Freedom in Society.) ~ Bertrand Russell Hi Ajay Crime exists in every country in the world and has since the dawn of time. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ajay0 Posted April 23 Author #13 Share Posted April 23 Spiritual teacher Joan Tollifson has similarly showed a correlation between desires (as opposed to needs) stimulated by capitalist marketing structures and resultant addiction disorders. Human needs are finite but desires are bound to be unending due to the boundless nature of imagination. https://www.joantollifson.com/writing9.html Quote It should be noted that seeking pleasure and avoiding pain are survival mechanisms that make perfect sense in a purely biological context, but no other animal smokes and drinks itself to death. Obviously, what begins as a natural survival mechanism can get in some way displaced, misdirected or exaggerated in human beings with our complex capacity for imagination and conceptual abstraction. Capitalist-consumer society, which is a creation of the human mind, actually cultivates addiction. Paul Mazer, a Wall Street banker working for Lehman Brothers in the 1930s, was quoted in a documentary as having said: "We must shift America from a needs – to a desires – culture. People must be trained to desire, to want new things, even before the old have been entirely consumed…Man's desires must overshadow his needs." And I believe it was the current CEO of Apple whom I heard in an interview describe their mission as "creating something you didn't know you wanted that once you have it, you can't imagine living without." Capitalism and the advertising industry have devoted themselves to creating a sense of lack in virtually every aspect of modern life from politics to spirituality, and then offering to fill it with things we don't really need that won't really make us happy. It’s no surprise that addiction is a major problem. - Joan Tollifson 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted April 23 #14 Share Posted April 23 32 minutes ago, Ajay0 said: Spiritual teacher Joan Tollifson has similarly showed a correlation between desires (as opposed to needs) stimulated by capitalist marketing structures and resultant addiction disorders. Human needs are finite but desires are bound to be unending due to the boundless nature of imagination. https://www.joantollifson.com/writing9.html AJ, blaming addiction solely on capitalism is too narrow. Addiction is complicated, influenced by many things like genes and environment. While capitalism has flaws, it also brings benefits like progress and opportunities. We need a comprehensive approach, not just fixing capitalism, to tackle addiction effectively. A more viable approach involves considering all aspects of a person's well-being, including physical, mental, emotional, and social factors. In the context of addressing addiction, a comprehensive approach would involve examining the person’s genetic predispositions, psychological vulnerabilities, social environment, and access to support services. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ajay0 Posted April 23 Author #15 Share Posted April 23 3 minutes ago, Sherapy said: AJ, blaming addiction solely on capitalism is too narrow. Addiction is complicated, influenced by many things like genes and environment. While capitalism has flaws, it also brings benefits like progress and opportunities. We need a comprehensive approach, not just fixing capitalism, to tackle addiction effectively. So would you say that having numerous desires as opposed to mere needs is a healthy trend ! You can satisfy your needs easily, but satisfying numerous desires is bound to be tiresome in the long run . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted April 23 #16 Share Posted April 23 30 minutes ago, Ajay0 said: So would you say that having numerous desires as opposed to mere needs is a healthy trend ! You can satisfy your needs easily, but satisfying numerous desires is bound to be tiresome in the long run . No, it's genetic and has nothing to do with Capitalism. I know plenty of moderately wealthy business people who live by the law of the minimum. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted April 23 #17 Share Posted April 23 1 hour ago, Ajay0 said: So would you say that having numerous desires as opposed to mere needs is a healthy trend ! You can satisfy your needs easily, but satisfying numerous desires is bound to be tiresome in the long run . AJ, Focusing on understanding individual needs, distinguishing them from desires, and adopting a balanced approach to fulfillment will contribute to a more sustainable sense of well-being and support efforts to address addiction more effectively. Many people overcome addiction and manage to find a homeostasis within capitalism. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightly Posted April 23 #18 Share Posted April 23 (edited) But, I can’t live without my IPad.. can I ? Addictions have been a human behavioral problem for as long as people have been people .? Alcohol&drugs usually come to mind first? But, I think modern society does provide a far larger range of lifestyle choices and things that, for the most part, we could ,and used to, live without. The majority of people seem to be addicted to habitual behaviors which, almost constantly, Fill their senses..with activities and sights and sounds and tastes and smells. Many can’t stop at a stop light without obsessively scrolling their smart phone! Or walk into a room without turning something noisy ON Many seem to have developed almost somewhat of an aversion to stillness, peace and quiet! It seems to make many sort of nervous! .. Reality starts creeping in? Edited April 23 by lightly 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ajay0 Posted April 24 Author #19 Share Posted April 24 (edited) 17 hours ago, Piney said: No, it's genetic and has nothing to do with Capitalism. I know plenty of moderately wealthy business people who live by the law of the minimum. If some moderately wealthy business people merely satisfy their authentic needs rather than multiple imaginary desires, then good for them. They are not bound to have addiction disorders and potential for psychological suffering. However this does not mean the rest, especially the middle and lower classes are immune to the temptations impressed on them by various ads in social media, billboards, tv and cinema, magazines and newspapers and brochures, endorsements by successful celebrities. Desires are also generated by comparison, so if the neighbor has a brand new luxury car, desires for the same will be generated in oneself so as to keep up and not to look bad in comparison. If I am a capitalist selling branded watches, it would be good for my profits if the same customer is impressed to buy a few dozen of my watches even if only one is needed for his or her practical purpose. Good marketing psychology and tactics and salesmanship can ensure that the same customer would buy a couple of branded watches for various occasions and dress styles citing the example of a famous actor or model or celebrity. I would also create a few ads showing that those who wear my branded watches are Winners who stand out and the rest are pathetic losers who belong to the invisible herds. Plato has stated that the intelligent are always a minority in a population, so the people who can figure out my schemes would be a minority and will not pose much trouble for me. The superficial majority however are bound to buy my watches and enable me to buy my next super-yacht, private island and latest sportscar, which similarly has been impressed on me by various ads and articles and examples of celebrities. And yes, there will be a few who are impressed with strong cravings by the ads of my watches, and being unable to afford them will try to steal them or get to a life of crime for easy money, and end up in prison for a couple of years. Bad luck, I guess. If they were smart enough like me, they would do all the robbing they wanted in a legal manner without anyone being the wiser. Edited April 24 by Ajay0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchopwn Posted April 24 #20 Share Posted April 24 20 hours ago, Ajay0 said: So would you say that having numerous desires as opposed to mere needs is a healthy trend ! You can satisfy your needs easily, but satisfying numerous desires is bound to be tiresome in the long run . And this "lets' settle for less" attitude is why India stagnated for centuries, and was conquered by Muslims who unrelentingly massacred the Hindu population for 500 years. There is a place and a reason for all things under heaven, or so the saying goes. Even for desires. Enlightenment isn't everything, in fact, it may not be enough. The bad side of an ascetic life is that it encourages you to tolerate poverty and deprivation instead of bettering your lot in life. It tells you "don't be materialist", but it is in times of prosperity that religion flourishes. Religion is always the enemy, because it is inevitably some "wise guy" telling you to make do with less while he makes do with the "more" you supply him. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ajay0 Posted April 24 Author #21 Share Posted April 24 (edited) 1 hour ago, Alchopwn said: And this "lets' settle for less" attitude is why India stagnated for centuries, and was conquered by Muslims who unrelentingly massacred the Hindu population for 500 years. There is a place and a reason for all things under heaven, or so the saying goes. Even for desires. Enlightenment isn't everything, in fact, it may not be enough. India is an ancient civilization that has been there for milleniums and is still standing while other contemporary ancient civilizations like the Egyptian, Babylonian, Assyrian and Persian have collapsed. By the law of averages, the Indian civilization should not be standing at the moment but it is . As per economic history, both India and China were the richest nations on earth for milleniums. It was the recent British colonisation and economic exploitation that resulted in its diving headlong into poverty, but after independence is now moving swiftly up economically and is the fastest growing economy on earth at the moment with the third largest number of billionaires in the world. However as Sadhguru stated in the article, the increasing focus on affluence, consumerism and capitalist model induced multiple desires are creating havoc in urban India as well. Quote The bad side of an ascetic life is that it encourages you to tolerate poverty and deprivation instead of bettering your lot in life. It tells you "don't be materialist", but it is in times of prosperity that religion flourishes. Religion is always the enemy, because it is inevitably some "wise guy" telling you to make do with less while he makes do with the "more" you supply him. As per Hindu scriptures, the Rajarshi or spiritual householder, with both spiritual and material prosperity, is superior to a mere ascetic as the ascetic is dependent on his alms and material supports on the householder. Janaka was an enlightened king mentioned in the Vedas who was not averse to manual labor in the field and at the same time was an instructor to philosophical and spiritual seekers. Rama, Krishna, Lahiri Mahasaya are other such examples. The Rajarshi is similar to the philosopher-king of Plato. 'Dharmasya Moolam Arthah' is a sanskrit saying which means Dharma or righteousness grows by wealth earned by honest and ethical means. As per Guru Nanak (founder of Sikhism) too, the householder who makes a honest and ethical living with his mind on the Divine, need not perform any other austerities. One can have goals and intelligently crafted duties to progress in life enthusiastically without craving for them. It is strong desires as in cravings that agitate the mind leading to stress and loss of peace of mind. Such cravings can also lead one to vice and crimes of passion as well. All desires for sense-pleasures are bound to result in pain and misery in the long run due to the factors of impermanence and saturation. The goal thus would be to find a permanent source of happiness and joy that is derived from Self-knowledge or Buddha nature or Christ-consciousness within. The ascetic or monk also plays a vital role in society, in showcasing the fact that running endlessly after numerous desires for transient pleasures is not exactly wise and to focus on wisdom and bliss of enlightenment instead. Siddhartha himself was inspired by an ascetic in his search for truth and enlightenment later on. Edited April 24 by Ajay0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted April 24 #22 Share Posted April 24 On 4/23/2024 at 5:49 AM, Ajay0 said: It should be noted that seeking pleasure and avoiding pain are survival mechanisms that make perfect sense in a purely biological context, but no other animal smokes and drinks itself to death. Obviously, what begins as a natural survival mechanism can get in some way displaced, misdirected or exaggerated in human beings with our complex capacity for imagination and conceptual abstraction. The reason that humans smoke and drink and no other animal species do is simply because we have no fur to keep us warm in the winter. So, we found that fire was a great help. In our subsequent understanding of fire, we discovered smoking and drinking. What does any of that have to do with mental illness. Everyone can have moments of wisdom and insight. But Indian Gurus get waaaay too much credit for their 'wisdom' and 'insight', which by and large consists of how to present oneself in order to scam money out of duped followers. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted April 24 #23 Share Posted April 24 3 hours ago, Ajay0 said: India is an ancient civilization that has been there for milleniums and is still standing while other contemporary ancient civilizations like the Egyptian, Babylonian, Assyrian and Persian have collapsed. By the law of averages, the Indian civilization should not be standing at the moment but it is . As per economic history, both India and China were the richest nations on earth for milleniums. It was the recent British colonisation and economic exploitation that resulted in its diving headlong into poverty, but after independence is now moving swiftly up economically and is the fastest growing economy on earth at the moment with the third largest number of billionaires in the world. However as Sadhguru stated in the article, the increasing focus on affluence, consumerism and capitalist model induced multiple desires are creating havoc in urban India as well. As per Hindu scriptures, the Rajarshi or spiritual householder, with both spiritual and material prosperity, is superior to a mere ascetic as the ascetic is dependent on his alms and material supports on the householder. Janaka was an enlightened king mentioned in the Vedas who was not averse to manual labor in the field and at the same time was an instructor to philosophical and spiritual seekers. Rama, Krishna, Lahiri Mahasaya are other such examples. The Rajarshi is similar to the philosopher-king of Plato. 'Dharmasya Moolam Arthah' is a sanskrit saying which means Dharma or righteousness grows by wealth earned by honest and ethical means. As per Guru Nanak (founder of Sikhism) too, the householder who makes a honest and ethical living with his mind on the Divine, need not perform any other austerities. One can have goals and intelligently crafted duties to progress in life enthusiastically without craving for them. It is strong desires as in cravings that agitate the mind leading to stress and loss of peace of mind. Such cravings can also lead one to vice and crimes of passion as well. All desires for sense-pleasures are bound to result in pain and misery in the long run due to the factors of impermanence and saturation. The goal thus would be to find a permanent source of happiness and joy that is derived from Self-knowledge or Buddha nature or Christ-consciousness within. The ascetic or monk also plays a vital role in society, in showcasing the fact that running endlessly after numerous desires for transient pleasures is not exactly wise and to focus on wisdom and bliss of enlightenment instead. Siddhartha himself was inspired by an ascetic in his search for truth and enlightenment later on. AJ, the idea that suggesting one must renounce all desires and pleasures in pursuit of enlightenment is fear-mongering or an overly restrictive perspective on life. Embracing and enjoying the experiences, possessions, and relationships that bring happiness and fulfillment can indeed be considered a valuable part of the human experience. Each person has unique values, priorities, and paths to fulfillment. Wisdom involves respecting and honoring individual preferences regarding what brings joy and meaning to their lives. For some, material possessions or experiences play a significant role in personal happiness, and denying individuals this source of joy isn’t your call or anyone else’s. Enjoying life's pleasures does not inherently conflict with spiritual growth or wisdom. One can practice mindful consumption, gratitude, and self-awareness while appreciating their experiences and possessions without becoming overly attached or driven by insatiable desires. Neglecting the pursuit of joy, pleasure, and desires in favor of strict renunciation can and does lend to feelings of deprivation, resentment, or a sense of missing out on life's offerings. Finding a healthy balance between enjoyment and personal growth is the more viable option. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted April 24 #24 Share Posted April 24 6 hours ago, Ajay0 said: If some moderately wealthy business people merely satisfy their authentic needs rather than multiple imaginary desires, then good for them. They are not bound to have addiction disorders and potential for psychological suffering. However this does not mean the rest, especially the middle and lower classes are immune to the temptations impressed on them by various ads in social media, billboards, tv and cinema, magazines and newspapers and brochures, endorsements by successful celebrities. Desires are also generated by comparison, so if the neighbor has a brand new luxury car, desires for the same will be generated in oneself so as to keep up and not to look bad in comparison. If I am a capitalist selling branded watches, it would be good for my profits if the same customer is impressed to buy a few dozen of my watches even if only one is needed for his or her practical purpose. Good marketing psychology and tactics and salesmanship can ensure that the same customer would buy a couple of branded watches for various occasions and dress styles citing the example of a famous actor or model or celebrity. I would also create a few ads showing that those who wear my branded watches are Winners who stand out and the rest are pathetic losers who belong to the invisible herds. Plato has stated that the intelligent are always a minority in a population, so the people who can figure out my schemes would be a minority and will not pose much trouble for me. The superficial majority however are bound to buy my watches and enable me to buy my next super-yacht, private island and latest sportscar, which similarly has been impressed on me by various ads and articles and examples of celebrities. And yes, there will be a few who are impressed with strong cravings by the ads of my watches, and being unable to afford them will try to steal them or get to a life of crime for easy money, and end up in prison for a couple of years. Bad luck, I guess. If they were smart enough like me, they would do all the robbing they wanted in a legal manner without anyone being the wiser. Google "Quaker business practices and reforms". We make Capitalism and simplicity work. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted April 24 #25 Share Posted April 24 10 minutes ago, Sherapy said: AJ, the idea that suggesting one must renounce all desires and pleasures in pursuit of enlightenment is fear-mongering or an overly restrictive perspective on life. Embracing and enjoying the experiences, possessions, and relationships that bring happiness and fulfillment can indeed be considered a valuable part of the human experience. Each person has unique values, priorities, and paths to fulfillment. Wisdom involves respecting and honoring individual preferences regarding what brings joy and meaning to their lives. For some, material possessions or experiences play a significant role in personal happiness, and denying individuals this source of joy isn’t your call or anyone else’s. Enjoying life's pleasures does not inherently conflict with spiritual growth or wisdom. One can practice mindful consumption, gratitude, and self-awareness while appreciating their experiences and possessions without becoming overly attached or driven by insatiable desires. Neglecting the pursuit of joy, pleasure, and desires in favor of strict renunciation can and does lend to feelings of deprivation, resentment, or a sense of missing out on life's offerings. Finding a healthy balance between enjoyment and personal growth is the more viable option. You just have to understand everything is temporary and enjoy it while you can. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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