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College campuses are in chaos with arrests being made all over the US


susieice

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45 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

As an American, I can say I love my country and am proud of it for the most part, but I do not like what happened in Iraq or Afghanistan. One can hold both those beliefs without conflict.  Likewise for Israel and its behavior.  Even many soldiers have said that they have gone too far.

The people leading the wars of conquest and destruction are mostly grandpa age. Younger people are standing up to them in a rather peaceful way.  The Age of Aggression has to end.  that includes Israel as well as Iran and other nations. 

These are fine sentiments, though ending the Age of Aggression isn't our, or the West's, unilateral decision.  Europe thought it was until about 18 months ago.  What hegemony do you want to live under? Snap into a Slim Jim, Throw You Off A Building, or Reeducation Camp?  Moreover, do you believe that Israel has some obligation to suffer the depredations of its neighbors and Iran, or that any behavior it might exhibit would lead a change in behavior of the latter?  To be sure, I don't believe there is any real solution to it.

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2 hours ago, Duke Wellington said:

We`re on the last Pope too and he is quite old.

According to the Mallacai Martin predictions Benedict was the last one, so there’s a massive “ohh there were some “anti-popes” Martin did count in th3 list…” reimagining of that prophesy going on. 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

There were indeed Nazi sympathizers and protesters in the US prior to WWII.

Yes there were, but the largest student demonstrations of the 1930s were primarily anti-war and anti-fascist. Once WWII was underway, students led protests in opposition to America's participation in it.

7 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

 You don't have to be anti-Semitic to want to stop the killing of civilian women and children.

Tell that to the students protesting.

7 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

So far these kids have mostly camped on campus.  They haver not burned buildings, looted Target stores, or thrown bricks and soup cans at police.  Neither have they invaded the Capitol, disrupted Congress or stolen objects.

Whilst some protests have been contained and relatively peaceful, others quickly morphed into cesspools of antisemitism. I don't see how anyone can justify or defend that, nor do I see how such behaviour is less egregious than the looting a Target store.

7 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

As an American, I can say I love my country and am proud of it for the most part, but I do not like what happened in Iraq or Afghanistan. One can hold both those beliefs without conflict.  Likewise for Israel and its behavior.  Even many soldiers have said that they have gone too far.

What about the behaviour of Hamas? Have you once asked why university students have not protested Hamas' slaughter of Israeli civilians, why they have not demanded justice for the women who were raped and mutilated or the children who were stabbed, shot and burned, and why they have not waved banners demanding the release of Israeli hostages?

No one by the way, is criticizing legitimate criticism of Israel and no one is criticizing calls for peace. There are Israelis in Israel doing the very same thing. The issue is eliminationist, antisemitic rhetoric, as well as the threats made to Jewish students. You responded to my comment about this. not with a condemnation of such protests, but with an attempt to justify them.

7 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

The people leading the wars of conquest and destruction are mostly grandpa age. Younger people are standing up to them in a rather peaceful way.  The Age of Aggression has to end.  that includes Israel as well as Iran and other nations.  

A rather peaceful way? Really? Does standing up to the 'Age of Aggression' include advocating for even more aggression — you know, like annihilating all of Israel and Jews around the world? Many of the current student protests are against the war in Gaza but all for war against Israel. How is that peaceful? Indeed, what reasonable, rational, peace loving person would participate in demonstrations that back a terrorist organization? Hamas are not freedom fighters. They are not a resistance. They are terrorists.

Edited by Kittens Are Jerks
Minor edits for clarification.
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Pro-Palestine protests are generously funded by donors promoting radical Islam studies

The student protests in the US against Israel have morphed into a sort of "youth rebellion." A significant portion of the participants are unclear about the exact reasons they are demonstrating. However, they are driven by a highly organized group with clearly defined and sharp goals.

https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/pro-palestine-protests-are-generously-funded-by-donors-promoting-radical-islam-studies-analysis-799154

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Columbia students seize building, smashing windows and lowering 'Intifada' banner

Student protesters at Columbia University seized an academic building on 116th and Broadway late Monday night, breaking windows and using outdoor campus furniture to barricade themselves inside.

“They started streaming towards Hamilton Hall,” said Lily Zuckerman, a sophomore at Barnard College who witnessed the move. “At some point, I can’t say when, they smashed the windows with a hammer, got into the building, and they started bringing in the picnic tables outside the building inside to barricade the doors.” The rioters also covered security cameras, Zuckerman told the Post.

https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-799170

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7 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

I think there are Israelis and Jews worldwide who do not agree with Netanyahu.  You don't have to be anti-Semitic to want to stop  the killing of civilian women and children.

I think a lot of those who scream anti-Semitism at the first criticism of Israel conveniently forget that it's government is a far-right, ultra-nationalist government. We criticise other far-right, ultra-nationalist governments far more than we do Israel's.

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Posted (edited)

My thing with these protests is that I can understand protesting against the mass killing of citizens and children, but they are totally neglecting the hostages whose release they should also be calling for. That does make them look anti-semitic. 

Edited by susieice
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What gets me is that these protestors would be suppressed in the society they are supporting.  Do they do any research themselves?  Relying on their friend's opinion doesn't give them the facts.  The LGBTQ+ that I have seen saying they support Hamas, do they KNOW they would not be allowed to live open lives in the countries that are supporting Hamas?  Those countries must be laughing their asses off right now seeing the uneducated westerners causing such dissent over here

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11 hours ago, Cho Jinn said:

These are fine sentiments, though ending the Age of Aggression isn't our, or the West's, unilateral decision.  Europe thought it was until about 18 months ago.  What hegemony do you want to live under? Snap into a Slim Jim, Throw You Off A Building, or Reeducation Camp?  Moreover, do you believe that Israel has some obligation to suffer the depredations of its neighbors and Iran, or that any behavior it might exhibit would lead a change in behavior of the latter?  To be sure, I don't believe there is any real solution to it.

Ending the Age of Aggression sounds cool doesn't it? Something to rally and march to.  Underlying that is something much less poetic and coldly practical. It is power and control.

You suggest that the West cannot end aggression alone.  I agree, but the US could have  ended 70% of it in the  last 50 years by not doing it ourselves.  We have not made Iran, Vietnam, Iraq or Afghanistan more free, prosperous, or happier due to our intervention.

To be clear, I am in favor of the old Reagan trope of the city on the hill, an example to the world, an example of what we could be, even though we do not manifest our own best aspirations yet.  I would much rather be the world's EMT rather than the world's policeman.

As for hegemony, I would rather live under the auspices of a Constitutional Republic with equal justice and maximum freedom as part of its foundation.  The only way to do that is to preserve what we have and refine it toward our own "best aspirations",  I am in favor of America first, not America isolated.

Some may want to hunker in a bunker or  bivouac in the backwoods, and that is fine.  People should be able to choose that.  But humanity has already passed through that stage, it does nothing to solve our current challenges.  

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25 minutes ago, susieice said:

My thing with these protests is that I can understand protesting against the mass killing of citizens and children, but they are totally neglecting the hostages whose release they should also be calling for. That does make them look anti-semitic. 

My thing is,the things many have said and done at these protests is antisemitic...

Now I see they have been made aware of many of these morons being caught in their own ignorance and trying to change the narrative a bit... can't fool me,I saw all those white kids out there screaming pure anti Jew bile.

They showed their own Charlottesville colors already...the mask doesn't fit anymore.

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19 minutes ago, susieice said:

My thing with these protests is that I can understand protesting against the mass killing of citizens and children, but they are totally neglecting the hostages whose release they should also be calling for. That does make them look anti-semitic. 

No that doesn't make them look antisemitic. Nor do their criticisms of Israeli policy or the IDF. What does make them look antisemitic, however, is their disgusting hate speech which includes calls for the genocide of Israelis and Jews.

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5 hours ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

Yes there were, but the largest student demonstrations of the 1930s were primarily anti-war and anti-fascist. Once WWII was underway, students led protests in opposition to America's participation in it.

Tell that to the students protesting.

Whilst some protests have been contained and relatively peaceful, others quickly morphed into cesspools of antisemitism. I don't see how anyone can justify or defend that, nor do I see how such behaviour is less egregious than the looting a Target store.

What about the behaviour of Hamas? Have you once asked why university students have not protested Hamas' slaughter of Israeli civilians, why they have not demanded justice for the women who were raped and mutilated or the children who were stabbed, shot and burned, and why they have not waved banners demanding the release of Israeli hostages?

No one by the way, is criticizing legitimate criticism of Israel and no one is criticizing calls for peace. There are Israelis in Israel doing the very same thing. The issue is eliminationist, antisemitic rhetoric, as well as the threats made to Jewish students. You responded to my comment about this. not with a condemnation of such protests, but with an attempt to justify them.

A rather peaceful way? Really? Does standing up to the 'Age of Aggression' include advocating for even more aggression — you know, like annihilating all of Israel and Jews around the world? Many of the current student protests are against the war in Gaza but all for war against Israel. How is that peaceful? Indeed, what reasonable, rational, peace loving person would participate in demonstrations that back a terrorist organization? Hamas are not freedom fighters. They are not a resistance. They are terrorists.

I really appreciate your response, it is thoughtful and very complete. 

Age-wise, I am your bookend.  I am pushing 70. I lived through my Vietnam era protests, but I would be foolish to think this is the same as that or WWII.  You would have more to say to the students than I would. 

I am sure you are aware that humanity is a spectrum of emotions, beliefs, and feelings, not a binary black and white choice. Any demonstration of any sort is a magnet for the extremists in favor of and opposed to the demonstration. They want publicity, and shock. The press is happy to oblige, whether that is the view of 5% or 95%  because it sells.  Clicks are more important to them than anything else.

You allude to that in the reprehensible comments and behavior of some in the demonstrations.  I am going to be cautious about how many of the demonstrators support that view.  It may well be a small % that are the ones who get in front of the cameras and give  the story clicks and advertising value.  It seems that statistics show an increase in US anti-Semitism. over the last decade.  It appeared in Charlottesville and has continued.  People with torches marching at night were not chanting "Preserve the statues".  They were chanting "Jews will not replace us."  That does not convince me all Trump supporters are anti-Semitic, but that we do have an active anti-Semitic element in the US.. It goes back further than Henry Ford too.

What about?  What about 10/7?  It happened so quickly there were not months to digest, prepare and respond.  But reading the press of the day, I think there was an immediate outpouring of anger at Hamas and sympathy for Israel. A whole lot of Arab Americans stood with Jews in support. We as a nation mobilized aid and rapid response. As far as I can tell, most Americans including students are in favor of Israel being able to defend its borders and autonomy.

The invasion of 10/7 was almost 7 months ago. It was a horrible barbaric event.  The world's sympathy and aid was focused on Israel.  Since then, there have been a continuous stream of horrible, barbaric events in the news almost daily, and most of them focus on Israel. Tens of thousands of women and children killed, and it is hard to convince the world that they were all terrorists who deserved to die.

Two very disparate groups are calling for Israel to defend itself without egregious slaughterer of civilians.  One group is the students  looking to stop the violence for humanitarian reasons.  The other group is the US military who has been there and done that.  They are not woke, but coldly practical.  They knew where this response would lead, and so it has.  Palestinian slaughter has been in the news for seven months,  That is plenty of time for feelings of outrage at so many dead women and children to lead to demonstrations.   The US did not say the Israelis were wrong to pursue and eliminate Hamas, but they suggested they were going about it in a way that would not produce desirable results..

As you noticed, a number of Arab neighbors as well as the US and EU helped Israel shoot down Iranian missiles.   Every country has a right to defend itself from other nations and from terrorist groups. When defense crosses the line into revenge,    non-combatants  are killed in large numbers and cities are leveled we might begin to question the justice and wisdom of the response.. 

I do agree with you that eliminationist anti-Semitic rhetoric is the major issue. IMO, that originated with students. That has been fueled by some very hateful people who never attended any university.  

Your sensibilities are spot on.  Annihilating all of Israel and Jews around the world  is a continuation of aggression, not the end of it.  So too is the attitude that seems to be espoused by the most militant of Israelis to eliminate Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank and around the world.  Ending aggression means ending it all, not turning a blind eye to your friend when he goes berserk.

You might  characterize history as a string of over reactions and over corrections.  Both are present here IMO.  Regards.

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4 hours ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

No that doesn't make them look antisemitic. Nor do their criticisms of Israeli policy or the IDF. What does make them look antisemitic, however, is their disgusting hate speech which includes calls for the genocide of Israelis and Jews.

Many had flags of terrorist groups.   Many claimed support for Hamas.   Many shouted death to Jews.    Anyone associating with these people needs to get away soon.  I'm sure there are some good folks with them but that would be a minority.   

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6 minutes ago, susieice said:

with the "protesters" now breaking windows to take over buildings, there is a reason to call the police.  

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House Republicans are launching an investigation into what kinds of federal funding these universities are receiving. I wonder how many of these students are using federal and state grants to attend classes. Everyone seems to agree this is terrible.

House Republicans launch investigation into federal funding for universities amid campus protests (msn.com)

House Republicans on Tuesday announced an investigation into the federal funding for universities where students have protested the Israel-Hamas war, broadening a campaign that has placed heavy scrutiny on how presidents at the nation's most prestigious colleges have dealt with reports of antisemitism on campus.

And House Republicans promised more scrutiny, saying they were calling on the administrators of Yale, UCLA and the University of Michigan to testify next month.

After Johnson visited Columbia last week with several other top House Republicans, he said “the anti-Jewish hatred was appalling.”

Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer, a New York Democrat, said in a floor speech Tuesday that it was “unacceptable when Jewish students are targeted for being Jewish, when protests exhibit verbal abuse, systemic intimidation, or glorification of the murderous and hateful Hamas or the violence of October 7th."

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The Senate at Columbia University has met. This was 3 days ago. I wonder what they're saying now.

Columbia University senate to examine administration amid campus protests (msn.com)

The senate, which includes faculty members, students and others, did not offer any specific assessment of Columbia’s president, Minouche Shafik, whose recent testimony before Congress and decision to call in police has put her at the center of debate over how to balance student safety and freedom of speech on campus in the final weeks of the academic year.

“In the end, many of us were not yet ready to use the words ‘censure’ and ‘no confidence.’ Others were ready to use these words,” Jeanine D’Armiento, a professor of medicine in anesthesiology and chair of the executive committee of the senate said in a statement. The statement said the group wanted to “communicate to the Trustees that what the administration they oversee has been doing is not working and their approach must change.”

Shafik has faced scrutiny from many corners, including calls to resign from House Speaker Mike Johnson (La.) and other Republicans. Columbia’s Board of Trustees, meanwhile, has offered its strong support of the president.

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Ministers call for Oct. 7 footage to be made public in hope it quells US campus protests

Several government ministers are pushing for Israel to publish graphic footage of the October 7 Hamas massacre, believing that doing so will shift the public narrative in Israel’s favor and quell the protests on US college campuses, Channel 12 reports.

According to the report, the push for the footage to be published, after it was decided early on in the war that it would not be made available to the public, comes in response to the explosion of anti-Israel protests on campuses across the US.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/ministers-call-for-oct-7-footage-to-be-made-public-in-hope-it-quells-us-campus-protests-report/

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Posted (edited)

CNN is on live coverage at Columbia University now. Hundreds of NYPD strategic response officers are lined up and CNN says they expect them to be given the order to move on campus at any time now. Officers are streaming down Broadway, which is blocked off from both directions. This is live updates. The police are moving in now. They're going in on 114th entrance also and ordering students to disperse. They are clearing out some of the students in front of Hamilton Hall. The reporter is saying she's seeing a lot of groups of police coming in. Hundreds of police moving. They have an area set up to bring the people they arrest to.

Live updates: University unrest and protests disrupt Columbia, UCLA, campuses across the US (cnn.com)

Edited by susieice
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Posted (edited)

This will take most of the night but police will enter Hamilton Hall. Everyone inside will be arrested and suspended. 

A good number of students has been pushed to the building where the cafeteria is located. I missed the name.

It's live on FOX too.

They're attempting to enter Hamilton Hall now. The group of officers being shown are trained to enter barricaded situations. They aren't playing around. That group of about 10 are inside and a lot more are lined up to go in.

Edited by susieice
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Posted (edited)

Police are putting students on buses. This link is live too.

Campus protests live updates: NYPD officers descend on Columbia University campus to clear protest (nbcnews.com)

Columbia University President Nemat “Minouche” Shafik is asking the NYPD to have a presence on campus through at least May 17.

 

“In light of the activities that occurred after the events of April 17-18, 2024, we further request that you retain a presence on campus through at least May 17, 2024 to maintain order and ensure encampments are not reestablished,” Shafik wrote.

Columbia’s commencement is scheduled for May 15. An estimated 15,000 students are set to graduate, the university has said.

 

PIX News New York is showing live reports from the scene on tonight's broadcast. There's a slim chance some of the people they're showing are students. They look like men in their 30s and 40s. CNN had said the people who took over Hamilton Hall weren't students.

Edited by susieice
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They're saying the campus and Hamilton Hall have been cleared out. The tent city is being disassembled. Over 100 arrests have been made. I saw at least 3 bus loads drive off. 

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19 hours ago, susieice said:

My thing with these protests is that I can understand protesting against the mass killing of citizens and children, but they are totally neglecting the hostages whose release they should also be calling for. That does make them look anti-semitic. 

Pro-Israel protestors are completely neglecting Israeli settler violence against Palestinians and the deaths of Palestinians in custody, whose release they should be calling for. That does make them look Islamophobic.

Does that seem like a sensible statement to you?

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