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College campuses are in chaos with arrests being made all over the US


susieice

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14 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

I really appreciate your response, it is thoughtful and very complete. 

Likewise.

14 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

You allude to that in the reprehensible comments and behavior of some in the demonstrations.  I am going to be cautious about how many of the demonstrators support that view.  It may well be a small % that are the ones who get in front of the cameras and give  the story clicks and advertising value.

Whilst I would not characterize all students protesting as antisemitic, I've seen enough of the protests both in the US and elsewhere, to know that those who are, make up more than just a small percentage.

Indeed, Hamas must be loving every minute of these protests, no doubt relishing the number of useful idiots it's acquired. Not one has condemned Hamas for its brutal massacre of Israeli civilians. Not one has demanded that Hamas acknowledge Israel's right to exist. And not one has demanded sanctions for anyone funding Hamas’ crimes against humanity — not just against Israelis, but Palestinians as well.

Where are the condemnations of Hamas using civilians as human shields, of stealing humanitarian aid, and of using protected sites like schools and hospitals from which to run their terror operations? Why is Israel deserving of the protesters' righteous indignation but not Hamas?

14 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

What about?  What about 10/7?  It happened so quickly there were not months to digest, prepare and respond.  But reading the press of the day, I think there was an immediate outpouring of anger at Hamas and sympathy for Israel. A whole lot of Arab Americans stood with Jews in support. We as a nation mobilized aid and rapid response. As far as I can tell, most Americans including students are in favor of Israel being able to defend its borders and autonomy.

What happened on October 7 — mass murder of men, women and children, sexual assault, including gang rape, and the desecration of corpses — did not end there. Israelis taken hostage on that day continue to experience rape, sexualized torture, and inhumane treatment.

Whilst it's true that many governments and citizens were quick to condemn Hamas and assert Israel’s right to defend itself, many others, including the secretary-general of the UN, argued that Israelis were in some way responsible for the horrific crimes committed against them. Others have gone even further by trying to erase October 7, claiming it never took place, or that acts of rape did not occur, or that Israel fabricated evidence against Hamas. Some have even framed Israel’s retaliation against Hamas as an unprovoked attack on Gaza.

Add more false accusations, such as apartheid and genocide, and presto! you've got even more false narratives with which to launch a gaslighting campaign that significantly blurs moral clarity and ignites anti-Israel protests on campuses and elsewhere around the world.

I have yet to see, by the way, any anti-Israel protesters in favour of Israel defending itself and its autonomy. Instead, many students and professors not only excuse Hamas' actions on October 7, they celebrate them. Hamas is praised and Israel is demonized.

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On 4/30/2024 at 6:31 AM, Kittens Are Jerks said:

Columbia students seize building, smashing windows and lowering 'Intifada' banner

Student protesters at Columbia University seized an academic building on 116th and Broadway late Monday night, breaking windows and using outdoor campus furniture to barricade themselves inside.

“They started streaming towards Hamilton Hall,” said Lily Zuckerman, a sophomore at Barnard College who witnessed the move. “At some point, I can’t say when, they smashed the windows with a hammer, got into the building, and they started bringing in the picnic tables outside the building inside to barricade the doors.” The rioters also covered security cameras, Zuckerman told the Post.

https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-799170

How will these students react if Hitler,  AKA Trump, wins the election?

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15 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Two very disparate groups are calling for Israel to defend itself without egregious slaughterer of civilians.  One group is the students  looking to stop the violence for humanitarian reasons.  The other group is the US military who has been there and done that.  They are not woke, but coldly practical.  They knew where this response would lead, and so it has. 

Hamas also knew where the Israeli response would lead, and did not care. They were, and still are, more than willing to sacrifice Palestinian lives in pursuit of their genocidal agenda. Yet no protesters will acknowledge Hamas' share of the responsibility in the deaths of these civilians.

15 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Palestinian slaughter has been in the news for seven months,  That is plenty of time for feelings of outrage at so many dead women and children to lead to demonstrations.   The US did not say the Israelis were wrong to pursue and eliminate Hamas, but they suggested they were going about it in a way that would not produce desirable results..

There has also been plenty of time for feelings of outrage at the deaths of women and children in Ukraine (the numbers of which are not significantly lower than those in Gaza). Where is the outrage for them? Where is the outrage for the tens of thousands of young Ukrainians killed defending their country? An entire generation of young men is this close to being erased and yet university campuses have not exploded with protests over it.

Why is it that Israelis, after experiencing an act of genocide, are then demonized and accused of doing the same thing themselves?

Outrage at the deaths of innocent civilians is understandable. No decent person would be indifferent to human suffering, regardless of where and to whom that suffering occurred. Civilian casualties, however, are an inevitable consequence of war. If Israel could destroy Hamas and free its remaining hostages without causing harm to civilians, it would. While the world focuses on strikes that have resulted in the deaths of many civilians, it's chosen to ignore the number of strikes that were called off after a civilian presence was identified.

Hamas is aware the IDF goes to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties, which is why it uses human shields and why its fighters wear civilian clothing. Some Palestinians volunteer to be human shields, others are forced. Some Palestinians tried to escape Israeli strikes following IDF warnings, but were prevented from doing so by Hamas. Is Israel to blame for these civilian deaths?

The following video is a decade old (could not find a more current example) but it well illustrates the practice of using human shields to thwart Israeli air strikes and how Hamas encourages it.

 

15 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

As you noticed, a number of Arab neighbors as well as the US and EU helped Israel shoot down Iranian missiles.   Every country has a right to defend itself from other nations and from terrorist groups. When defense crosses the line into revenge,    non-combatants  are killed in large numbers and cities are leveled we might begin to question the justice and wisdom of the response.. 

I would not characterize the killing of Palestinians or the levelling of Gaza as an act of revenge. Israel's mission is to eliminate Hamas and rescue the remaining hostages. Hamas has made it clear that its attacks on Israel will continue until it's wiped off the map. No one should argue that there's no wisdom to Israel's response.

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, WVK said:

How will these students react if Hitler,  AKA Trump, wins the election?

Trump may be a lot of things, but he's no Hitler. I don't know how some student protesters will react if he wins the election, but given his support of Israel they most likely will not respond favourably. He has, however, been criticizing Israel lately, saying they're losing the PR war because they keep “releasing the most heinous, most horrible tapes of buildings falling down. And people are imagining there’s a lot of people in those buildings, or people in those buildings, and they don’t like it.” Trump has also criticized Netanyahu, accusing him of being unprepared for the October 7 attack. There are Israelis who would agree with him.

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/04/04/trump-israel-gaza-war-00150577

Edited by Kittens Are Jerks
Minor corrections.
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Posted (edited)
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18 minutes ago, WVK said:

How will these students react if Hitler,  AKA Trump, wins the election?

They'll beat out a rhythm on their prison bars and chant some moronic slogans written by ten-year-olds on TickTock.

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Those who oppose Israel have become the bigots they themselves hate - opinion

In combating this vile behavior, many, including professors, have pointed out the double standard applied to these protests.

The latest blood libel has arrived.

It was reported, on April 21, that some 200 bodies were found in a mass grave outside a hospital in Khan Yunis, Gaza. Hamas claimed that the Israeli Defense Forces killed and buried these individuals. As has been the case throughout this conflict, the world media jumped at the opportunity to implicate the Jewish State and the number has since doubled.

https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-799266

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11 minutes ago, Tom1200 said:

They'll beat out a rhythm on their prison bars and chant some moronic slogans written by ten-year-olds on TickTock.

Yea, i don’t think Trump will tolerate George Floyd riots style property destruction and chaos.

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Brown becomes first US university to consider divesting from Israel

Brown University reached an agreement on Tuesday with students protesting the war in Gaza that would see them remove their encampment from school grounds in exchange for the institution considering divesting from Israel.

The move represents the first major concession from an elite American university amid relentless student protests that have paralyzed campuses across the country, divided public opinion and led to hundreds of arrests.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/brown-becomes-first-us-university-to-consider-divesting-from-israel/

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4 hours ago, WVK said:

How will these students react if Hitler,  AKA Trump, wins the election?

Hitler, AKA Biden is already president. 

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The students are already Hitler Youth.

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How would the Democrats feel if the protests were pro Russia in the Russia/Ukraine war?

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2 hours ago, Zebra3 said:

The students are already Hitler Youth.

More like Anti-Hitter Youth this time around.

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I would suspect that a good portion of the protestors are paid agitators. 

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9 minutes ago, Buzz_Light_Year said:

I would suspect that a good portion of the protestors are paid agitators. 

Now now... that's what some said about Jan 6 and they were called nutters.

Just watching interesting parallels between left and right events...

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US Congress to vote on expanded definition of antisemitism amid growing campus protests

The US Congress is voting today on legislation that would establish a broader definition of antisemitism for the Department of Education to enforce anti-discrimination laws, the latest response from lawmakers to a nationwide student protest movement over the Israel-Hamas war.

The bill — co-sponsored by nearly 50 Republicans and more than a dozen Democrats — would codify the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance’s definition of antisemitism in Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, a federal anti-discrimination law that bars discrimination based on shared ancestry, ethnic characteristics or national origin.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/us-congress-to-vote-on-expanded-definition-of-antisemitism-amid-growing-campus-protests/

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9 hours ago, Setton said:

Pro-Israel protestors are completely neglecting Israeli settler violence against Palestinians and the deaths of Palestinians in custody, whose release they should be calling for. That does make them look Islamophobic.

Does that seem like a sensible statement to you?

So there's two cards being played. And?

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21 minutes ago, susieice said:

So there's two cards being played. And?

I don't know what you mean about cards.

The point is that no protestors protest everything they might disagree with at once.

It's not anti-Semitism. And saying it is diminishes the meaning of the word. That's how people like me get accused of anti-Semitism on this forum for daring to criticise Israel.*

 

 

*Which is also not anti-Semitism, however hard Netanyahu and his ultra right nuts claim it is.

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4 hours ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

I would not characterize the killing of Palestinians or the levelling of Gaza as an act of revenge. Israel's mission is to eliminate Hamas and rescue the remaining hostages. Hamas has made it clear that its attacks on Israel will continue until it's wiped off the map. No one should argue that there's no wisdom to Israel's response.

Thanks.  Another thoughtful post. 

Here is my thought on US military advice to Israel.  They suggested to Israel that military action in Gaza would be fraught with difficulty.  The US  did not think that it was a military challenge.

What the US painfully learned by bitter experience is that wars are not fought or won on the battlefield alone.  You are so right that Hamas does not care about Palestinian lives, they are just a resource.  So, Hamas is free to sacrifice them to further their own aims. They have played the death of Palestinians into a worldwide PR victory.  Sympathy for Israel has been turned into anger.  It may not turn many into Hamas supporters, but it does make people question Israel.  Adding to that are the stray Israeli minister quotes that appear about nuking Gaza,  or shooting Palestinians instead of detaining them, or filling Gaza with new Israeli settlements..  True or not, they get spread worldwide and sympathy for Israel evaporates.

I will argue that the response from Israel lacks wisdom.  The outcome was predictable and like the tar baby in Southern Folklore a trap.

Where does Israel stop?  Do they exterminate 100k Palestinians and push another million to starvation or exterminate  all 2 million Gaza inhabitants. Will it make a difference?  Not  to the outcome, but it will be worse for both Palestinians and Israelis.  Several billion people are watching.  Predictably some will move from interest to sympathy to outrage to partisan.  How many brand new Hamas soldiers will be ready to pick up a weapon and turn it on Jews world wide.  How many Hamas agents saw a marvelous opportunity to influence and hang around student protests because they are easy to sway?  How many of the upper Hamas leaders were in Palestine and how many in safe havens around the world.  The leader can get sympathy for his family being killed while he is safe to plot and plan in another location.  The IDF is obligated to report progress in the form of top Hamas leaders killed, but did they really get top guys  or just throw away soldiers?  Israel has one of the best intelligence agencies in the world, that might have been the better tool to take out Hamas leadership quietly all around the world.

When the wind blows dandelions, it does not kill them, it disperses the seed far and wide and new dandelions spring up in places there were none before.  Way back in 1950, Eric Hoffer wrote a book, The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements.

Its short but full of content and still applicable 70 years later.  Far better than prophesy, it explains the mechanism quite well and the common nature of true believers.    I recommend a scan.  Regards.

 

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Fordham University in New York have now requested for NYPD to intervene. Police are ready to move.

Fordham Students, Inspired by Columbia Protests, Brace for Police Crackdown - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

The students inside appeared undeterred the morning after nearly 300 people were arrested elsewhere in Manhattan at Columbia University and City College of New York. More than 100 demonstrators amassed outside the Leon Lowenstein Center at Fordham, and by Wednesday afternoon around a dozen others remained in the lobby, near the modest encampment.

Some of the students inside the lobby said they had been suspended and brandished their suspension letters through the windows.

Some of the students inside the lobby said they had been suspended and brandished their suspension letters through the windows.

 
 

 

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Anti-Israel university protests live updates: Police enter Fordham’s anti-Israel encampment to remove protesters (msn.com)

Two prison buses have arrived at the encampment, and the school notified protesters late Wednesday afternoon that they’re suspended and banned from campus.

 

A total of 282 people were arrested: 109 people at the Ivy League campus after cops busted the mob that took over the university’s Hamilton Hall, and 173 at the “intifada” encampment at City College.

 

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Posted (edited)

Police say they've cleared the protest at Fordham. Fordham has requested a police presence until May 22. There's been arrests at the University of Wisconsin Madison. There were 15 injured and 1 hospitalized when protesters clashed at UCLA last night. This is an updating link with a lot of articles in it.

Live updates: Pro-Palestinian university protests at Columbia, UCLA, UT, campuses amid Israel's war in Gaza (cnn.com)

Edited by susieice
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Posted (edited)

Pictures but nothing graphic.

Live updates: Pro-Palestinian university protests at Columbia, UCLA, UT, campuses amid Israel's war in Gaza (cnn.com)

UCLA became a focal point of nationwide campus protests early Wednesday morning when violent clashes broke out between protesters and counterprotesters as police allegedly stood by.

KABC stated that "after a couple of hours of scuffles between protesters," police formed lines between the groups to quell the violence.

California Gov. Gavin Newsom condemned the recent violence in a statement on Wednesday: "The law is clear: The right to free speech does not extend to inciting violence, vandalism, or lawlessness on campus. Those who engage in illegal behavior must be held accountable for their actions -- including through criminal prosecution, suspension or expulsion."

Newsom's office published an additional statement calling the delayed law enforcement response "unacceptable" and demanding answers.

“As soon as it became clear that state assistance was needed to support a local response, our office immediately deployed CHP personnel to campus,” the governor’s office said.

Edited by susieice
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