College campuses are in chaos with arrests being made all over the US

[+susieice]

4 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

Not only are protestor's educations disrupted, so are those of other students.  I am not faulting the police for being on campus; maintaining order is their job (Putting pepper spray in the eyes of unresisting people is bullying, not legitimate police work.  But police will be police and rubber bullets and pepper spray against all and sundry is what you expect when you call them in.).  The fault, if any, lies in the administration for calling in the police too soon.

 

At Kent, 29 windows in bars across from the campus were broken.  (This is what prompted Rhodes to send in the National Guard without consulting the University administration.  One prof later said the whole thing could have been prevented by sending a D8 down the north side of State Street.).  The National Guard was not trained for crowd control and was issued bullets in opposition to Pentagon policy.  The morning of the shooting, SDS members set fire to three old empty WWII barracks buildings near the Commons.  They then cut the hoses of firemen who responded.  The fires were an architectural improvement to the campus.

The individual guardsmen were ordered (illegally) to fire and did so.  This was not self-defense.  Afterward, the Portage County Prosecutor charged the guardsmen with murder, then defended them in court so as to protect them under double jeopardy.  And that was a very powerful lesson in American jurisprudence.

What didn't make the newspapers was the bayoneting of one student in the back.  Also, there was a police charge on the opposite side of campus in which no one was injured.  When properly trained, police can do it right.

Doug

It was over two weeks before police were called onto the campuses. That aside, why were the Guard there in the first place? What happened at Kent State that they were called in? The whole weekend really and yes I know the shootings were on a Monday.

[Doug1066]

2 minutes ago, susieice said:

She wasn't even involved with the protest. She was walking across a large grassy commons area going from lunch to her next class and was a good distance away from the Guard. I've never agreed with the Guard opening fire arbitrarily on a large area full of students. There was another student who was standing on the steps of a building watching what was going on. He was also not a part of the protest.

Sandy was 900 feet from the nearest guardsman.  I think she was hit by a shot that deliberately missed closer protestors; the firer didn't check his background.  The shooting wasn't arbitrary.  It was agreed upon ahead of time after the guard had advanced across the parking lot south of Taylor Hall.  It then reformed, advanced to Taylor Hall, turned and fired.  My cousin caught the order to fire on a tape recording.

People swore up and down that there had been snipers.  There were no bullet holes in Taylor Hall, the building immediately behind the guardsmen in news photos.  Neither were there bullet holes in other buildings or trees.  This is typical of the mindless rumors that follow these events.  Don't believe anything you hear that isn't backed up by hard facts.  Mostly what we are hearing about the current demonstrations are conspiracy theories.

Doug

P.S.:  I took a journalism class in Taylor Hall.

Doug

[Doug1066]

26 minutes ago, susieice said:

The death of those students was a terrible thing. Nine were wounded and have since made documentaries about what happened that day. Why did this happen?

This happened because people who didn't know how to handle this sort of situation were in charge of the decisions.

Doug

[CrimsonKing]

1 minute ago, Doug1066 said:

Sandy was 900 feet from the nearest guardsman.  I think she was hit by a shot that deliberately missed closer protestors; the firer didn't check his background.  The shooting wasn't arbitrary.  It was agreed upon ahead of time after the guard had advanced across the parking lot south of Taylor Hall.  It then reformed, advanced to Taylor Hall, turned and fired.  My cousin caught the order to fire on a tape recording.

People swore up and down that there had been snipers.  There were no bullet holes in Taylor Hall, the building immediately behind the guardsmen in news photos.  Neither were there bullet holes in other buildings or trees.  This is typical of the mindless rumors that follow these events.  Don't believe anything you hear that isn't backed up by hard facts.  Mostly what we are hearing about the current demonstrations are conspiracy theories.

Doug

P.S.:  I took a journalism class in Taylor Hall.

Doug

Watch the videos Mr conspiracy theory...

Video evidence everywhere.

[CrimsonKing]

We are going to have to have this thread moved right next to the Jan 6 thread in the conspiracy section soon I reckon.

[Doug1066]

7 minutes ago, susieice said:

It was over two weeks before police were called onto the campuses. That aside, why were the Guard there in the first place? What happened at Kent State that they were called in? The whole weekend really and yes I know the shootings were on a Monday.

The why goes back to J. Edgar Hoover who thought it would serve as a lesson to war protestors if some of them were killed.  He found a patsy in Governor James Rhodes whom he persuaded to send in the guard.  The immediate trigger was the breaking of those windows by a bunch of drunks who were not even involved in the demonstrations.

Doug

[+susieice]

11 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

Sandy was 900 feet from the nearest guardsman.  I think she was hit by a shot that deliberately missed closer protestors; the firer didn't check his background.  The shooting wasn't arbitrary.  It was agreed upon ahead of time after the guard had advanced across the parking lot south of Taylor Hall.  It then reformed, advanced to Taylor Hall, turned and fired.  My cousin caught the order to fire on a tape recording.

People swore up and down that there had been snipers.  There were no bullet holes in Taylor Hall, the building immediately behind the guardsmen in news photos.  Neither were there bullet holes in other buildings or trees.  This is typical of the mindless rumors that follow these events.  Don't believe anything you hear that isn't backed up by hard facts.  Mostly what we are hearing about the current demonstrations are conspiracy theories.

Doug

P.S.:  I took a journalism class in Taylor Hall.

Doug

There is no definitive proof that there was ever an order issued for the guard to open fire and this has been in court numerous times. There was a tape introduced into court where they might have heard an order but it's too faint. They can't say for sure that's what it was. I don't have to guess. I was alive and well.

Now, why were the guard there?

Edited May 3 by susieice

[Doug1066]

4 minutes ago, CrimsonKing said:

Watch the videos Mr conspiracy theory...

Video evidence everywhere.

Video evidence from Kent doesn't exist.  The only video evidence was shot by the Akron Beacon Journal with gigantic truck-mounted cameras and they weren't there the morning of the shooting.

 

As for the current situation:  how do you tell who the perpetrators are when everybody is throwing punches?  The videos show only violence, not evidence.

Doug

 

[Doug1066]

3 minutes ago, susieice said:

There is no definitive proof that there was ever an order issued for the guard to open fire and this has been in court numerous times.

There is a tape recording of it.  My cousin was the one who recorded it.

https://www.cleveland.com/science/2010/10/analysis_of_kent_state_audio_t.html

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/may/02/internationaleducationnews.usa

https://www.library.kent.edu/special-collections-and-archives/kent-state-shootings-sound-recordings-may-4

Doug

[Tatetopa]

1 hour ago, CrimsonKing said:

At one of these "protest" half the people arrested weren't even students!

Again are some deliberately ignoring proof positive caught on video evidence of what all is going on here due to political lean?

I know some here aren't blind,deaf,nor ignorant...but damn, sometimes I wonder,meh forget it.

No doubt about it.  A lot of people have been saying there are agitators fueling this that are not students.

Now make a list of who benefits.  Hamas, Hezbollah, ISIS, Iran, Russia, China, North Korea, India, Houthis in Yemen, US media, maybe even Netanyahu if he can spin it for sympathy. 

Political lean spreads far out of the US. Liberals and Conservatives in the US are both going to suffer if we let our country be further divided.

Thin ice to single 20 year old students as idiots and morons when we have a country full of uneducated dupes that will believe every unscientific, illogical conspiracy that fuels their anger and fear.

[Doug1066]

11 minutes ago, CrimsonKing said:

We are going to have to have this thread moved right next to the Jan 6 thread in the conspiracy section soon I reckon.

Certainly the comments pertaining to the current round of demonstrations could easily fit there.

Doug

[CrimsonKing]

2 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

Video evidence from Kent doesn't exist.  The only video evidence was shot by the Akron Beacon Journal with gigantic truck-mounted cameras and they weren't there the morning of the shooting.

 

As for the current situation:  how do you tell who the perpetrators are when everybody is throwing punches?  The videos show only violence, not evidence.

Doug

 

If you haven't heard all the anti Jew chants,seen signs,seeing students interviewed who have no clue why they are even there...then you have not been keeping up sir.

I haven't seen to many Jewish students inciting violence,hell they are being warned not to show up on campus at several places.

Video evidence is a wonderful tool too weed out who is doing what.

Hell different people use it everyday to pick out certain people...we've actually gotten really good at it.

[+susieice]

11 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

Video evidence from Kent doesn't exist.  The only video evidence was shot by the Akron Beacon Journal with gigantic truck-mounted cameras and they weren't there the morning of the shooting.

 

As for the current situation:  how do you tell who the perpetrators are when everybody is throwing punches?  The videos show only violence, not evidence.

Doug

 

There's tons of pictures. Easily searched. Submitted in court. Both before the shooting and after.

Edited May 3 by susieice

[Tatetopa]

1 hour ago, susieice said:

And whose fault is that? 

It is a lesson worth its weight in gold.  Do the crime and do the time. Better than any lecture and maybe with lifelong repercussions.  Its  a pity that some of these young people got duped by outside agitators, but they acted.so they own it.

Its a life lesson, stand by your principles and don't get sucked in by a slick talker.  A lesson many adults have missed too. 

[Doug1066]

36 minutes ago, CrimsonKing said:

Sad yes,but different times,different problems.

How one can watch visual evidence of hate being spewed and act as if several weeks later the cops are finally begged to come in and do something..."it's the cops fault" is some of the most,hell I honestly can't put it into words without getting into trouble.

Best I talk about something else for awhile 😆

Different times; same problems.

Maybe you missed the post (#199) where I said I didn't fault police for being police.  This sort of thing is what you expect when you call them in.  They are not well trained to begin with and have even less training in crowd control.

The fault here, as at Kent, lies with the people who call them in.

Doug

[CrimsonKing]

6 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

When we have a country full of uneducated dupes that will believe every unscientific, illogical conspiracy that fuels their anger and fear.

Exactly!...far too many now days will ignore the truth right in front of their own eyes,over nothing more than political lean.

Question,have you watched any of these videos?... would you say everything you've heard with your own 2 eyes and ears,you have only heard of support for Palestine and nothing anti Jewish?

Extraordinary claims,require extraordinary evidence...there is video everywhere since this started, video evidence does pretty damn good in a court room,so it's good enough for me.

 

[Doug1066]

11 minutes ago, susieice said:

There's tons of pictures. Easily searched. Submitted in court. Both before the shooting and after.

Lots of stills.  But back in 1970, people didn't have readily-portable video cameras.  The ones that existed were monsters and used film.  But the news media did have some.  They even got me in one of those clips.  My aunt and parents saw it on the evening news.

Doug

 

[+susieice]

8 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

The fault here, as at Kent, lies with the people who call them in.

Why were they called in?

[docyabut2]

Those students and who `s behind should be arrested and stay in jail for threating and killing our  people and culture:(   

Edited May 3 by docyabut2

[Doug1066]

4 minutes ago, CrimsonKing said:

would you say everything you've heard with your own 2 eyes and ears,you have only heard of support for Palestine and nothing anti Jewish?

The clips I have seen support both sides.  There are Jewish students who oppose the bombing of Gaza and the murder of 33,000 Palestinians.  Does it sound like justice when in return for killing 1200 Israelis, Netanyahu kills 13,000 Palestinian children?  There are Palestinian students who condemn Hamas.  Why not work together?  Petition Biden to halt weapons shipments to Israel.

Doug

 

[CrimsonKing]

10 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

Different times; same problems.

Maybe you missed the post (#199) where I said I didn't fault police for being police.  This sort of thing is what you expect when you call them in.  They are not well trained to begin with and have even less training in crowd control.

The fault here, as at Kent, lies with the people who call them in.

Doug

I haven't been talking about god damn Kent,I've been talking about the current sideshow.

These cops were called in 2 plus weeks later after the start of it all.

Do you believe in video evidence?...yes or no?

[Doug1066]

4 minutes ago, susieice said:

Why were they called in?

People call in police because they don't know what else to do.

Again, knowing what police will do, it is better to negotiate endlessly than to have the blood of children on your hands.

Brown University agreed to review its endowments to see what companies are doing business with Israel and then to publish the result.  An investigation - universities are good at those.  Then the university may choose to divest itself in those companies.  At any rate, it will be fall before any investigation can be completed and hopefully, passions will have abated by then.  The agreement calmed the situation and Brown has not had further problems.

Doug

[CrimsonKing]

4 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

The clips I have seen support both sides.  There are Jewish students who oppose the bombing of Gaza and the murder of 33,000 Palestinians.  Does it sound like justice when in return for killing 1200 Israelis, Netanyahu kills 13,000 Palestinian children?  There are Palestinian students who condemn Hamas.  Why not work together?  Petition Biden to halt weapons shipments to Israel.

Doug

 

Ok,of those "both sides" which side has many videos of them espousing hate speech about a certain type of person?

[Doug1066]

3 minutes ago, CrimsonKing said:

I haven't been talking about god damn Kent,I've been talking about the current sideshow.

These cops were called in 2 plus weeks later after the start of it all.

Do you believe in video evidence?...yes or no?

I see many similarities between now and Kent.  We are on the same trajectory now as then, just not as far along.

The cops were called in too soon.  You know when you call them that they will resort to violence.  Blaming a cop for being violent is like blaming a desert for being dry.  They are what they are,  Some civics lesson you want to teach:  democracy means imposing your will by force.

The videos show both sides (See Post 220).

Doug

[CrimsonKing]

I'm being trolled...

Nice one

Doug