Tollense Valley Battlefield

[The Puzzler]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tollense_valley_battlefield
 

Who? Lusatian Culture vs Urnfield Culture.

Since they became Celts, Etruscans, Latins and certainly Poles and Bavarians, maybe even Slavic types…and had influence in the Mediterranean, I wonder what of this battle can be found in these later cultures…via mythology or history…did the impact at Kaali have a bearing on the battle? Is it the true story of Troy, embellished much later..? Why are Romans Trojans…did they really come from Troy via Aeneus? Is it the beginnings of the Phaethon myth? The same time as the Fall of the Bronze Age in the Mediterranean. Why did it occur at all?

What was going on in the middle of nowhere, with the nearest settlement over 350km away? Men from all over Europe turned up, who started it, who called up the troops? I find it the biggest mystery of all.

Why did these two cultures go to war?

 

Edited May 4 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

This is no caravan heist…nor do I think an opportunity to ambush a local people crossing the bridge…nor anything to do with the Amber route….this is a highly mobilised battleground of two forces, fighting at that spot for what?

The only other large scale battles of that kind of later times, is usually for a Kings hold, to hold up the realm of the King of the time.

I wonder just how powerful the Kings of the Urnfield and Lusatian were, who did they become..?

Saxon Kings? Maybe the Western French Germanics who became Urnfield Celts of the Hallstatt…men of Kingdoms where ancient Kings ruled with iron fists to protect their lands…

Edited May 4 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Did the Urnfield people take this history into Celtic society, Villanovan society and then Rome?

[The Puzzler]

This is why it wasn’t a local people stopping a caravan heist….or any local people protecting anything local….

It was bigger than that. They came from near and far. They were not assembled from a local population.

https://indo-european.eu/2020/07/local-tollense-valley-battlefield-warriors-rich-in-haplogroups-r1b-and-i2a/
 

Tollense sample shows no structure

Multiple lines of evidence point to little or no genetic structure in the population from which the Tollense individuals were sampled. First, all individuals fall within the range of Central and northern European variation when projected onto a principle component analysis (PCA) trained on modern samples and their spread matches that of other ancient population samples of similar age; 

—————-

Second, the Tollense sample appears closest to 5th century Bavarians (Veeramah et al. 2018) and modern Central and northern Europeans when quantified with FST, although all European populations have overlapping confidence intervals.

 

[The Puzzler]

Note also some of these Urnfield items, the diadem for example, comes from Poland…Lusatian Culture core.They are barely discernible from each other, both starting around 1300BC, showing signs of later Celtic wares, one east, Poland, one West, west Germany, France, to Italy….seemingly essentially the same to me.

[The Puzzler]

Poland, if any country of the continent suffered fallout from the Kaali impact, it would have been Poland, in where ancient writers places Helle…the ancient Hellespont imo….on maps it’s spelled Helle, but this shows it as Hel…were they fleeing from their homeland, seeking new lands?

“The name of the peninsula might come from either the Old Polish word hyl/hel, meaning "empty or exposed place," or the Germanic word heel, which is derived from the form of the peninsula and the fact that the area was first settled by the Goths, an East Germanic tribe.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hel_Peninsula

 

[The Puzzler]

There is no evidence any Greeks pulled ships ashore at where todays “Troy” is and scanty evidence of any Great War taking place there in the timeframe given for it.

The only big battle at c.1200BC is Tollense.

[The Puzzler]

Romans themselves descend from one of the sides…the Urnfield Culture.

No Greeks said they descend from Trojans….but here we have some character called Aeneus apparently fleeing Troy, then some more wild stories of how his descendants became Romans.

In Italy the late Bronze Age Canegrate and Proto-Villanovan cultures and the early Iron Age Villanovan culture show similarities with the urnfields of central Europe. The Italic peoples are descended from the Urnfield and Tumulus culture, who inhabited Italy from at least the second millennium BC onwards. Latins achieved a dominant position among these tribes, establishing the ancient Roman civilization. During this development, other Italic tribes adopted the Latin language and culture in a process known as Romanization.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture

Edited May 6 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

There’s a huge plain and a river.

The men were assembled like at Troy, called up from everywhere near and far to the battle.

Apollo himself is said to be a Hyperborean God.

And what about the other side, the Lusatian Culture?

Based on archaeological evidence, some scholars such as Nicholas Hammond and Eugene N. Borza argue that the Bryges/Phrygians were members of the Lusatian culture that migrated into the southern Balkans during the Late Bronze Age

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryges

 

Edited May 6 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

3 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

There is no evidence any Greeks pulled ships ashore at where todays “Troy” is and scanty evidence of any Great War taking place there in the timeframe given for it.

The only big battle at c.1200BC is Tollense.

There were others I mean, not European battles though. No known battles with Greeks of that time.

The Urnfield was basically a part of the Lusatian…so the Tollense was basically the same people, from different realms,  fighting each other. 

The Lusatian culture developed as the preceding Trzciniec cultureexperienced influences from the Tumulus culture of the Middle Bronze Age, essentially incorporating the local communities into the socio-political network of Iron Age Europe.^[3] It formed part of the Urnfield systems, origin of the Celts and Romans,

Edited May 6 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

4 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

There is no evidence any Greeks pulled ships ashore at where todays “Troy” is and scanty evidence of any Great War taking place there in the timeframe given for it.

The only big battle at c.1200BC is Tollense.

 

[Abramelin]

@The Puzzler

What point are you trying to make?

That the Trojan War actually took place in the north?

[Piney]

2 hours ago, Abramelin said:

@The Puzzler

What point are you trying to make?

That the Trojan War actually took place in the north?

I think it was a "takeover" of a section of the Amber Road. 

[Abramelin]

1 minute ago, Piney said:

I think it was a "takeover" of a section of the Amber Road. 

Yeah, that's more like it.

[Piney]

15 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Yeah, that's more like it.

The story behind it might of survived up until Ceasar's Druidic genocide. 

[The Puzzler]

11 hours ago, Piney said:

I think it was a "takeover" of a section of the Amber Road. 

OK, Thankyou for your decent answer.

[The Puzzler]

13 hours ago, Abramelin said:

@The Puzzler

What point are you trying to make?

That the Trojan War actually took place in the north?

I have to go to work, I’m rushing my answers and will be back later…

But yes, I am I guess….as ONE option.

But it’s an overall question.

Maybe a takeover of the Amber road, I don’t buy the caravan heist theory, the battle must have been known of before it happened, men travelled long distances to get there…just doesn’t seem to fit to me, in the context. Any thoughts are welcome. I appreciate the input, talking to myself for 5 days was getting tedious lol

Edited May 7 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

11 hours ago, Piney said:

The story behind it might of survived up until Ceasar's Druidic genocide. 

Yes, big point. Much history was lost, very sad.

[Piney]

3 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

I have to go to work, I’m rushing my answers and will be back later…

But yes, I am I guess….as ONE option.

But it’s an overall question.

Maybe a takeover of the Amber road, I don’t buy the caravan heist theory, the battle must have been known of before it happened, men travelled long distances to get there…just doesn’t seem to fit to me, in the context. Any thoughts are welcome. I appreciate the input, talking to myself for 5 days was getting tedious lol

I was definitely a invasion and since it was a "busy route" the caravan just might of happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[The Puzzler]

1 hour ago, Piney said:

I was definitely a invasion and since it was a "busy route" the caravan just might of happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I wouldn’t think the warriors got it wrong…hey man, we been called up to this big battle from Czechoslovakia….oh here comes a caravan, let’s take it down dudes….I don’t think so.

It’s a pre-emptive. Something that was known, a war troops were called up for.

The Amber road is viable..what threat do you think was there…and who was protecting it?

[Piney]

5 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

I wouldn’t think the warriors got it wrong…hey man, we been called up to this big battle from Czechoslovakia….oh here comes a caravan, let’s take it down dudes….I don’t think so.

It’s a pre-emptive. Something that was known, a war troops were called up for.

The Amber road is viable..what threat do you think was there…and who was protecting it?

Celtic and PIE culture was based on war and raiding. Caravans probably had large protection details.

[The Puzzler]

36 minutes ago, Piney said:

Celtic and PIE culture was based on war and raiding. Caravans probably had large protection details.

I agree with the first part…not sure what you mean in the second…large protection details…? Sorry, double shift day, tired….but interested in what you mean.

However first part, I agree certainly, but why don’t we see other battlegrounds in “pre-Celtic” society? 

if so, we would expect to find more of these battles, all throughout the steppes and Europe, but we don’t, nada…just this one. It was a biggie.

For some reason.

 

Edited May 7 by The Puzzler

[Piney]

Just now, The Puzzler said:

I agree with the first part…not sure what you mean in the second…large protection details…? Sorry, double shift day, but tired….but interested in what you mean.

However first part, I agree certainly, but why don’t we see other battlegrounds in “pre-Celtic” society? 

if so, we would expect to find more of these battles, all throughout the steppes and Europe, but we don’t, nada…just this one. It was a biggie.

For some reason.

 

A small army protecting the valuables. 

The Pontic-Caspian Steppe is huge and raids were small but there is evidence the Sintasha and Andronovo built fortifications on their Winter pastures. 

[The Puzzler]

25 minutes ago, Piney said:

A small army protecting the valuables. 

The Pontic-Caspian Steppe is huge and raids were small but there is evidence the Sintasha and Andronovo built fortifications on their Winter pastures. 

Ok, I was thinking along those lines…a protection posse that went with the caravans? (A)

Fortifications are different, we find no fortification within hundreds of kms around, so it seems they didn’t come from a central protection fort…however, if I strained my brain within my Troy context, I could see that one of these protection forts was indeed, being protected. (B)

That would not have to do with caravans though…two different points. A and B

Again the caravan theory just doesn’t seem to stack up in many areas.

To elaborate on B….it would make the caravan theory redundant and be more about protecting one of the realms…the said Polish Lusatian one…possibly against invading Urnfield ones, whose I find more war-mongering (early Celts) than the Lusatian one.

The Polish Pomeranian Bavarian one seems more “established”…they actually do have forts…(the Tollense battle is actually called “The Pomeranian Troy”) than the more Western proto Celtic society that was uprising toward Western Europe,  the Alps and Rome eventually. 

Edited May 7 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

In fact, even the Lusatian Culture shows elements of major Celtic influence…whether this be from the Urnfield overtaking them, well, not sure…or we’re just one big culture, overlapping East and West…l now think the Lusatian Cultire are the Tarim Mummies….

I always knew the Celts came from here. I have topics on it from years ago. This is just strengthening my ideas. That they came south from Poland after the Kaali impact in Estonia that caused flooding and tsunamis in the Baltic, especially low areas like Poland. There’s a map with the Vistula marked as the Eridanus..and we know this mythology of a possible PHaethon event transferred down to at least the Po River in Northern Italy.

There’s a strange sentence by Tacitus about the Aesti speaking the same language of the Britons….I believe whole-heartedly they did. You see, the Aesti were simply pre-Celtic Polish….so why wouldn’t they?

According to Tacitus, the Aesti live Upon the right of the Suevian Sea ^[2] and have the same customs and attire as the Germanic Suevi. It has been suggested that the Aesti worshipped the mother of the gods, similar to the Nerthus cult among northern Germanic peoples.^[3] Though they were most likely of Baltic origin, they had extensively intermingled with the neighbouring Gothic Tribes.^[4][5]

Tacitus wrote that the Aesti were "the only people who collect amber—glaesum is their own word for it—in the shallows or even on the beach".^[6] Glaesum, an apparently Latinised word for amber (in Latin, sucinum), is the only surviving example of the Aestian language. The word is quoted of being of Germanic origin, given its similarity to the Gothic word glas.^[7] Tacitus, however, describes the language of Aestii as closer to that spoken in Britain than that spoken by other neighbouring tribes.

This has intrigued me for years. maybe this holds the answer.

I’m watched this, this guy is no YouTuber but it is interesting, the connections we see.

I even think the Gauls were so called because they were Yellow heads…like black heads, Sumerians…because the world Gaul, gall, yellow is all the same in context. Poland has the highest percentage of blonde haired people in the world.

 

Edited May 7 by The Puzzler