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New Vatican guidance on supernatural phenomena


eight bits

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The Vatican will be announcing new guidance on how to evaluate such things as apparitions of Jesus's mother, weeping statues, and other such objects and events. There will be a press conference streamed live on YouTube at 6 am Eastern (GMT-4). I don't know what language(s) will be used.

The Vatican YouTube page is here: https://www.youtube.com/@VaticanNews

No doubt a text version of the guidelines will be made available on the Vatican website later today in several languages including English. Meanwhile, here's some background:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2024/05/16/vatican-press-conference-apparitions-supernatural-phenomena/73709902007/

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Good grief...

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And here we are:

https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/it/bollettino/pubblico/2024/05/17/0403/00842.html#en

The first thing to notice is that whoever wrote this thing was paid by the word. The document takes its time to get to the point. Bottom line: unless the Pope says otherwise in a particular case, the RCC will not declare anything as positively of supernatural origin. At most, the authorities in Rome will find nihil obstat, "no objection," to the local bishop encouraging (but not requiring) belief that some situation, object, or event is a gift from God.

There are also five other possible findings, ranging roughly from "You've got to be kidding" to "Proceed with caution." Regardless of which finding emerges, the authorities can always revisit the case as new information is discovered.

Apart from reserving outright endorsement to the Pope personally, apparently the net result of the new way (which takes effect Sunday ... I have no idea what they propose to do if the Mother of God shows up somewhere on Saturday) is to increase the power of Rome to manage these matters relative to the local bishops' powers under the previous (1978) rules.

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17 minutes ago, eight bits said:

And here we are:

https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/it/bollettino/pubblico/2024/05/17/0403/00842.html#en

The first thing to notice is that whoever wrote this thing was paid by the word. The document takes its time to get to the point. Bottom line: unless the Pope says otherwise in a particular case, the RCC will not declare anything as positively of supernatural origin. At most, the authorities in Rome will find nihil obstat, "no objection," to the local bishop encouraging (but not requiring) belief that some situation, object, or event is a gift from God.

There are also five other possible findings, ranging roughly from "You've got to be kidding" to "Proceed with caution." Regardless of which finding emerges, the authorities can always revisit the case as new information is discovered.

Apart from reserving outright endorsement to the Pope personally, apparently the net result of the new way (which takes effect Sunday ... I have no idea what they propose to do if the Mother of God shows up somewhere on Saturday) is to increase the power of Rome to manage these matters relative to the local bishops' powers under the previous (1978) rules.

Whatever happened to exorcists having to be trained Jesuit psychologists? Unless this exorcist population boom has to do with the American "break off" of fringe Catholics. 

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4 minutes ago, Piney said:

Whatever happened to exorcists having to be trained Jesuit psychologists? Unless this exorcist population boom has to do with the American "break off" of fringe Catholics. 

This new document seems to focus on public spectacles, rather than exorcisms which are private affairs and have their own set of rules, or the miracles which would qualify somebody to be declared a saint, which also have their own rules.

Supposedly, a lot of the US demand for RC exorcism comes from non-Catholics. I don't know.

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4 hours ago, eight bits said:

Supposedly, a lot of the US demand for RC exorcism comes from non-Catholics. I don't know.

Because of ghost hunters and horror fiction.

And when that fails they always need a ****ing Indian. 🤪

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Is the vatican going to scrutinize all supernatural phenomena, not just Jesus in a cloud or a piece of toast, but things like raising the dead, walking on water, turning water into wine, a wafer into flesh, just wondering....

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

Is the vatican going to scrutinize all supernatural phenomena, not just Jesus in a cloud or a piece of toast, but things like raising the dead, walking on water, turning water into wine, a wafer into flesh, just wondering....

Now that is a very good question!

Probably not. But if a communion wafer ever turns into flesh it's going to be a very nauseating service. Yuck...

Edited by Piney
brain fart
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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Piney said:

Probably not. But if a communion wafer ever turns into flesh it's going to be a very nauseating service. Yuck...

Actually that would seem to fall within the scope of the new rules.

Quote

Part II Article 3 § 3 – The Diocesan Bishop should exercise particular care, even using the means at his own disposal, to prevent the spread of confused religious manifestations or the dissemination of any materials pertaining to the alleged supernatural phenomenon (such as the weeping of sacred images; the sweating, bleeding, or mutation of consecrated hosts, etc.) to avoid fueling a sensationalistic climate (cf. Art. 11 § 1).

Quote

Part II Article 7 § 4 – When the alleged phenomenon involves various types of objects, the Diocesan Bishop, personally or through a Delegate, may order that those objects be stored in a safe and secure place, pending clarification of the case. When it involves an alleged Eucharistic miracle, the consecrated species must be kept in a confidential place and in an appropriate manner.

Quote

Part II Article 11 § 3 – If the phenomenon involves the Body and Blood of the Lord in the sacramental signs of bread and wine, special care should be given so that any analyses on the Eucharistic species do not result in disrespect for the Blessed Sacrament, ensuring that due reverence for it is maintained.

So, @Wepwawet I don't about Jesus on toast, but yes, some of the things on your list are now going to be handled from the Vatican.

Edited by eight bits
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8 hours ago, eight bits said:

So, @Wepwawet I don't about Jesus on toast, but yes, some of the things on your list are now going to be handled from the Vatican

I wonder then what is going to be left of the religion. From Vatican II it seems as if it's being destroyed changed from within to be something unrecognizable.

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On 5/18/2024 at 1:59 AM, Wepwawet said:

I wonder then what is going to be left of the religion. From Vatican II it seems as if it's being destroyed changed from within to be something unrecognizable.

This is really true.

In the long run, the Vatican is no match for people young and old obtaining knowledge of the divine and infinite from the internet and social media.   

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On 5/17/2024 at 2:44 PM, Piney said:

But if a communion wafer ever turns into flesh it's going to be a very nauseating service. Yuck...

You will consume the Holy Beef Jerky and like it mister!!!!!😆

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The concept of the Eucharist, central to Christian sacraments, has intriguing historical connections to earlier traditions. Let’s explore this fascinating journey from ancient practices to the Christian ritual:

  1. Showbread in Israelite Temples:

  2. Osiris and Divine Bread:

In summary, while the Eucharist has roots in various ancient traditions, including those related to sun veneration and divine bread, the specific connection to Osiris remains speculative and lacks scholarly support. Nevertheless, the parallels across cultures highlight the enduring significance of communal rituals involving sacred food. 

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Posted (edited)

I just wanted to acknowledge the find of the indefatigable @Still Waters which got lost in a duplicate-thread repair this morning:

https://theconversation.com/the-vatican-is-cracking-down-on-miracles-here-are-the-new-rules-for-supernatural-occurrences-230544

This article makes some additional points about the relationship between the new rules with what used to be called "The Inquisition." It also includes some illustrations of pareidolia-Jesus phenomena.

Thanks, SW.

Edited by eight bits
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