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Evil or Divine?


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Posted (edited)

Based on what I have heard and read about him, I am convinced that the God of the Bible, the God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammed, supposed creator of the universe and especially of life on Earth and particularly humans, is an sick, sadistic sociopath who likes nothing more than treating humans as slaves, torturing them, killing them and on occasion committing mass genocide.  Just because he can.  A violent and jealous entity who has done nothing whatsoever to gain my respect. 

Now, I appreciate that everything ever written about this God was written by man.  But is there anything in the Scriptures to convince me he is actually a really nice, friendly, jolly chap whom I'd actually want to meet? 

Serious theological question. 

Over to you.... 

Edited by Essan
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24 minutes ago, Essan said:

Based on what I have heard and read about him, I am convinced that the God of the Bible, the God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammed, supposed creator of the universe and especially of life on Earth and particularly humans, is an sick, sadistic sociopath who likes nothing more than treating humans as slaves, torturing them, killing them and on occasion committing mass genocide.  Just because he can.  A violent and jealous entity who has done nothing whatsoever to gain my respect. 

Now, I appreciate that everything ever written about this God was written by man.  But is there anything in the Scriptures to convince me he is actually a really nice, friendly, jolly chap whom I'd actually want to meet? 

Serious theological question. 

Over to you.... 

I’d go with a big NO as while Biblical Jesus is doing his best to paint Yahweh as a loving God, despite everything in the OT, Jesus and early Christianity are also promoting the concept of demons and “the Devil, which are not original to Judaism as well as the earliest stages of what would become Hell. Whether one considers Biblical Jesus or his writers responsible it’s much like spraying a hot pile of horse**** with rose water and proclaiming how wonderful it is. IMO. 
 

cormac

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The gods are anthropomorphisms of things and of abstractions. 

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Posted (edited)

Going off the Bible, I'd say The Christian God isnt any more put together than any of us. Emotional. Angry at times. Makes mistakes. Just crazy more poweful.

But. That said. I loved my Dad. Even though he was distant, and angry, and often ignorant. Though he threatened much, and was hypocritical about many things... He smoked, but insisted we shouldnt. He wouldnt go to the doctor, or dentist, but insisted we should.

Loving someone has nothing to do with their failures, or hypocricies, and everything to do with their successes.

God screwed up a lot. But finally sent Jesus to try to level things out. And so far its been quite a success.

Ironically, that success is what is causing people to now turn from religion, and away from God. In the Bible this happened over and over to the Israelites. Theyd worship God, and things would go smashingly good. But then slowly fall back into paganism, and things would start crumbling. Than God would send prophets lamenting the crimes of the people. And when things got bad enough, the people would turn to God again. We still live in this cyclical pattern.

Edited by DieChecker
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46 minutes ago, Essan said:

Based on what I have heard and read about him, I am convinced that the God of the Bible, the God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammed, supposed creator of the universe and especially of life on Earth and particularly humans, is an sick, sadistic sociopath who likes nothing more than treating humans as slaves, torturing them, killing them and on occasion committing mass genocide.  Just because he can.  A violent and jealous entity who has done nothing whatsoever to gain my respect. 

Now, I appreciate that everything ever written about this God was written by man.  But is there anything in the Scriptures to convince me he is actually a really nice, friendly, jolly chap whom I'd actually want to meet? 

Serious theological question. 

Over to you.... 

I think that's key here. Since man wrote it, it may just be a reflection of human nature. God is everything because we are...or vice versa. 

Sometimes we are good and kind and sometimes we're horrible. Just look around. 

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23 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Going off the Bible, I'd say The Christian God isnt any more put together than any of us. Emotional. Angry at times. Makes mistakes. Just crazy more poweful.

But. That said. I loved my Dad. Even though he was distant, and angry, and often ignorant. Though he threatened much, and was hypocritical about many things... He smoked, but insisted we shouldnt. He wouldnt go to the doctor, or dentist, but insisted we should.

Loving someone has nothing to do with their failures, or hypocricies, and everything to do with their successes.

God screwed up a lot. But finally sent Jesus to try to level things out. And so far its been quite a success.

Ironically, that success is what is causing people to now turn from religion, and away from God. In the Bible this happened over and over to the Israelites. Theyd worship God, and things would go smashingly good. But then slowly fall back into paganism, and things would start crumbling. Than God would send prophets lamenting the crimes of the people. And when things got bad enough, the people would turn to God again. We still live in this cyclical pattern.

Ok I’ll bite, how does God who’s considered by much of Christianity as both omniscient and omnipotent capable of having “screwed up a lot” as you put it? That’s an oxymoron if ever there was one IMO. 
 

cormac

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1 hour ago, Essan said:

I am convinced that the God of the Bible, 

 

Okay but are you convinced the fictitious (many consider the Bible to be a work of fiction) characterization of God in the Bible is true?

That in reality God is a "sociopath"?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Essan said:

Based on what I have heard and read about him, I am convinced that the God of the Bible, the God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammed, supposed creator of the universe and especially of life on Earth and particularly humans, is an sick, sadistic sociopath who likes nothing more than treating humans as slaves, torturing them, killing them and on occasion committing mass genocide.  Just because he can.  A violent and jealous entity who has done nothing whatsoever to gain my respect. 

Now, I appreciate that everything ever written about this God was written by man.  But is there anything in the Scriptures to convince me he is actually a really nice, friendly, jolly chap whom I'd actually want to meet? 

Serious theological question. 

Over to you.... 

ok wow. very subtle bait... lol

anyhoo what is evil? Evil is a matter of perspective, if you're a cow hooked up on machines, exploited, tortured and killed in an industrial manner everybody who enjoys your 'body's products' is evil, therefore a God of the cows is good when He wipes out humanity. From the human perspective matters might appear differently.

How about a gardener who just totally doesn't want any wysteria and bamboo in their garden and goes on a mass genocide operation because it doesn't work with the landscaping he has in mind? Evil? Bamboo'd say yes.

It's a matter of perspective. A matter of for what purpose. The bigger picture that matters. We got a) no clue what the actual events were the stories in the Bible are not 'good reporting' per se, we know that much. b) what the meta-reason behind it could be

I think the issue is in large parts the antropomorphizing, because we consider God intelligent we infer all the human attributes, like personality, emotions, all the biologically caused expressions of intelligence like murder for sustenance etc. I doubt any of those things apply, I don't expect God to have pitty, I don't expect Him to hang out and tell blondes jokes at my bbq-party, you know? So the issue is the somewhat childish image/expectations humans have of God.

Humans: Please be my loving sky-daddy;               reality: nope

lol

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37 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Ok I’ll bite, how does God who’s considered by much of Christianity as both omniscient and omnipotent capable of having “screwed up a lot” as you put it? That’s an oxymoron if ever there was one IMO. 

Are you arguing that God is not omnipotent, that he is incapable of screwing up a lot?

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1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

Going off the Bible, I'd say The Christian God isnt any more put together than any of us. Emotional. Angry at times. Makes mistakes. Just crazy more poweful.

 

Are you saying far from perfect? 

1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

 

God screwed up a lot. But finally sent Jesus to try to level things out. And so far its been quite a success.

With all kinds of wars about religion and physical and cultural genocides.

GOOD JOB JESUS! 

1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

Ironically, that success is what is causing people to now turn from religion, and away from God. In the Bible this happened over and over to the Israelites. Theyd worship God, and things would go smashingly good. But then slowly fall back into paganism, and things would start crumbling. Than God would send prophets lamenting the crimes of the people. And when things got bad enough, the people would turn to God again. We still live in this cyclical pattern.

<sigh> 

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55 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Okay but are you convinced the fictitious (many consider the Bible to be a work of fiction) characterization of God in the Bible is true?

That in reality God is a "sociopath"?

 

 

What do you think?  

We are talking here specifically about the God in the Bible (so not Thor, for example, or even Zeus and certainly not your own personal god) 

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Someone in another thread said that the concept of God bothers atheists more than it does theists, and this thread seems proof of that pudding.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, pellinore said:

Someone in another thread said that the concept of God bothers atheists more than it does theists, and this thread seems proof of that pudding.

 

 

Not at all.  But I am curious as to why no one has yet answered the question. 

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2 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

Ok I’ll bite, how does God who’s considered by much of Christianity as both omniscient and omnipotent capable of having “screwed up a lot” as you put it? That’s an oxymoron if ever there was one IMO. 
 

cormac

I don't control peoples beliefs. Myself, I don't see a problem with a being that is all powerful, all seeing, all knowing, being emotional, and making bad choices now and again.

Does power equal good choices? No. It lets you complete your choices though.

Does seeing equal good choices? No. It lets you see before and after your choices though.

Does knowing equal good choices? No. It lets you know your choices, but does not necessarily require making of good choices.

So what affects choices? In my experience it is logic, and emotion. And judging off the OT, and the NT, God uses plenty of emotion in his decisions, and not so much the logic.

People who say God doesnt make mistakes... Ask them about the Flood, and Adam and Eve, and why Jesus needed to come to Earth. If God made no mistakes, the reason Jesus came wouldnt have existed.

God makes mistakes. He always is trying to correct things though. Though doing so is done over millennia, not moments. 

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4 minutes ago, Essan said:

Not at all.  But I am curious as to why no one has yet answered the question. 

Being "Divine" means being BOTH good and evil. Though not always in equal parts. And not always as humanity would assume.

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10 minutes ago, Essan said:

Not at all.  But I am curious as to why no one has yet answered the question. 

Did you watch the video I posted?

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15 minutes ago, Essan said:

Not at all.  But I am curious as to why no one has yet answered the question. 

I thought I did a pretty good job.

All of the above.

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2 hours ago, Piney said:

Are you saying far from perfect? 

"Perfect" is a descriptive word. Could a all powerful, all seeing, all knowing, God be considered perfect? Yeah. Despite making bad choices. 

How did Obi Wan put it originally... "So, what I told you is true... From a certain point of view.".

So, i can be ok saying God has a perfect love, or a perfect plan, or a perfect timing... While at the same time knowing His choices have, at times, messed up those plans, and timing.

Quote

With all kinds of wars about religion and physical and cultural genocides.

GOOD JOB JESUS! 

Meh, not any worse than anyone else, IMHO. Bad in the ledgebook, but also great good.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I don't control peoples beliefs. Myself, I don't see a problem with a being that is all powerful, all seeing, all knowing, being emotional, and making bad choices now and again.

Does power equal good choices? No. It lets you complete your choices though.

Does seeing equal good choices? No. It lets you see before and after your choices though.

Does knowing equal good choices? No. It lets you know your choices, but does not necessarily require making of good choices.

So what affects choices? In my experience it is logic, and emotion. And judging off the OT, and the NT, God uses plenty of emotion in his decisions, and not so much the logic.

People who say God doesnt make mistakes... Ask them about the Flood, and Adam and Eve, and why Jesus needed to come to Earth. If God made no mistakes, the reason Jesus came wouldnt have existed.

God makes mistakes. He always is trying to correct things though. Though doing so is done over millennia, not moments. 

I have and they don’t see those as mistakes on Gods part but as “part of his plan”. Also in regards to God we’re not talking about simple power or sight but eternal levels of such. Your idea of power and sight doesn’t automatically scale up to God level out of convenience. I’m not saying you can’t believe what you do, far from it, but I’ve been on the other side of that discussion in my youth and your perspective doesn’t sound much different to me than Mr Walker’s more recent ET/God. I just find it baffling. 
 

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt
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4 hours ago, Essan said:

But is there anything in the Scriptures to convince me he is actually a really nice, friendly, jolly chap whom I'd actually want to meet? 

 

If you mean the fictional character of God depicted in the Old Testament Bible, I'd say no.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Will Due said:

the fictional character of God

Like all of them. They're all fictional. 

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3 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

"Perfect" is a descriptive word. Could a all powerful, all seeing, all knowing, God be considered perfect? Yeah. Despite making bad choices. 

How did Obi Wan put it originally... "So, what I told you is true... From a certain point of view.".

So, i can be ok saying God has a perfect love, or a perfect plan, or a perfect timing... While at the same time knowing His choices have, at times, messed up those plans, and timing.

Meh, not any worse than anyone else, IMHO. Bad in the ledgebook, but also great good.

No monotheistic religion ever brought any good. Monotheism needs "leaders", a priesthood attracting the pathological. Pantheism is personal and has no use for them. 

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4 hours ago, Essan said:

Based on what I have heard and read about him, I am convinced that the God of the Bible, the God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammed, supposed creator of the universe and especially of life on Earth and particularly humans, is an sick, sadistic sociopath who likes nothing more than treating humans as slaves, torturing them, killing them and on occasion committing mass genocide.  Just because he can.  A violent and jealous entity who has done nothing whatsoever to gain my respect. 

Now, I appreciate that everything ever written about this God was written by man.  But is there anything in the Scriptures to convince me he is actually a really nice, friendly, jolly chap whom I'd actually want to meet? 

Serious theological question. 

Over to you.... 

I think people 3,000 years ago did not see it the way you are seeing it, and did not interpret these things the way you are interpreting them through your modern lenses and morality.

To me, it seems an error that people are taking those issues with the Bible so literally after 3,000 years. Myself, I might be called by a New Ager in that I am not that interested in the Older Age of mankind's religious thought.

There are powerful fantastic teachers and teachings out there and many from modern times.

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Just now, papageorge1 said:

There are powerful fantastic teachers and teachings out there and many from modern times.

All of which are made up by people. Just stories. 

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