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Minoans and Phoenicians


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Minoans and Phoenicians

Indigenous Development versus Eastern Influence

 

https://phoenician.org/minoans_phoenicians_paper/


Conclusions:

To briefly sum up the results of the evidence examined here:  With respect to Renfrew’s theory of indigenous development on Crete, extensive archaeological work turned up no evidence of widespread grape and olive production at the early date he required, which was a devastating blow. Then, with regard to the smooth upward sweep of development he hoped to find leading to the building of the Minoan palaces, Cherry and others found instead a ‘quantum leap’ at that critical time. The fallback position by van Andel and Runnels, which admitted there was outside trade but attempted to postulate this trade was limited to the Aegean, was likewise unsuccessful. Clear evidence of trade and influence from the East is much in view.

Further, we clearly saw Tyre and Sidon were essentially abandoned at the same time Minoan palace society came to life. Both the Minoans and the Phoenicians were renowned sea traders, and dominated the seas at the same time without any sign of fighting between them. Both societies mixed the roles of their trading house, king’s residence, and administrative center. Both societies were peaceful by nature, a highly unusual trait in those times of widespread armies and warfare. And when Minoan society finally fell, the Phoenician cities of Tyre and Sidon came to life again. There was no other people or society in the Mediterranean during those centuries which shared all these remarkable occurrences.

To take the opposite view—and claim this could just be a coincidence—might be effective against one of these elements. When the sum of all the elements are considered together, however, it leads to a compelling conclusion. The rise of Minoan palace society was clearly due to Eastern influence. Further, it is noted that the Eastern influence arrived on Crete in the form of the Phoenicians. Other influences arrived from Egypt and, to a lesser extent, from Anatolia and Mesopotamia.

On a larger stage, it is widely acknowledged today that the Minoans had a great influence upon the early Greeks. We now see how the Minoans received many of these influences from the Phoenicians, Egyptians and others.

Later, of course, other non-European influences would come directly to the classical Greeks. These included the Phoenicians’ bringing the alphabet to Greece, as acknowledged by Herodotus[lxx] and virtually all linguists around the world. The Greeks adapted this to their own use by adding vowels, and created a better alphabet. With it they wrote the great classical works of Socrates, Plato, Aeschylus, Euripides and many others.

The debt of Western civilization to the contributions of the Phoenicians, Egyptians and other non-Europeans is now much in evidence. It is time to acknowledge the contributions by many people to civilization as it exists in the world today. While the discussion here has been focused on the West, we should acknowledge all the peoples who contributed to the rise of civilization—in the East and in the West.

 

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I think the Minoans contributed more to the Phoenicians than visa versa. The Canaanites started out as herders. But they did both exist at the same time and cross fertilized each other. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Piney said:

I think the Minoans contributed more to the Phoenicians than visa versa. The Canaanites started out as herders. But they did both exist at the same time and cross fertilized each other. 

The Canaanites may have started out as herders, but one group preferred to trade. And thàt started quite early (Byblos - Egypt, 4th millennium BCE).

And *I* think the Phoenicians, or whatever they were called before the Greeks invented a name for them, did contribute a lot to the Minoan civilization.

The idea alone has been resisted fanatically for more than a century. Either by common Greeks or Greek linguists and historians. If you only knew how much - and in what words Jan Best was being ridiculed, resisted, fkg hated by the Dutch professors and such by suggesting that Minoan language was Semitic, or only heavily influenced by a Semitic language...

They were/are addicted to the idea democracy, the Western civilization in general, started with thèm, the Greeks, including Crete.

Edited to add:

Did you read the paper I linked to?

Edited by Abramelin
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1 minute ago, Abramelin said:

The Canaanites may have started out as herders, but one group preferred to trade. And thàt started quite early (Byblos - Egypt, 4th millennium BCE).

And *I* think the Phoenicians, or whatever they were called before the Greeks invented a name for them, did contribute a lot to the Minoan civilization.

The idea alone has been resisted fanatically for more than a century. Either by common Greeks or Greek linguists and historians. If you only knew how much - and in what words Jan Best was being ridiculed, resisted, fkg hated by the Dutch professors and such by suggesting that Minoan language was Semitic, or only heavily influenced by a Semitic language...

They were/are addicted to the idea democracy, the Western civilization in general, started with thèm, the Greeks, including Crete.

Edited to add:

Did you read the paper I linked to?

I scanned it. I'll read it tonight. There's no doubt they cross fertilized each other. But I see no signs of the Canaanite religion among the Minoans which is a major part of "linguistic culture". 

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2 minutes ago, Piney said:

I scanned it. I'll read it tonight. There's no doubt they cross fertilized each other. But I see no signs of the Canaanite religion among the Minoans which is a major part of "linguistic culture". 

I'll wait for your response, after you read the paper/article.

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Something else.

 

Κairatos. Ancient Phoenician name of Knossos.

https://creteisland.gr/en/crete/history/ancient/7-ancient-cities-of-crete

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crete

$$$$$

Etymology of the name Crete

Crete's earlier name Caphtor didn't refer to the island so much as to the Minoan civilization, which at its zenith extended far beyond the island. The name Caphtor died with the Minoan culture, and the new name Crete appears to have been brought along with the Mycenaean invaders, who were actually refugees from the Greek main land. If the recent past is any indication, the crisis of the Bronze Age Collapse probably inspired the remaining elite to identify the usual suspects and hold them responsible for society's trouble. Whether they were sent there by their overlords or whether they went voluntarily, the chances are excellent that the Mycenaean invaders who ultimately extinguished the dwindling Minoan culture on Crete were Mycenaean outcast: folks who had trouble fitting in or for whatever reason failed to adhere to the Mycenaean norm.

That suggests that Crete was pretty much the Bronze Age equivalent of British Australia, and since the Mycenaean outcast probably required a few generations to settle in and develop an independent social identity, the changes are excellent that the name Crete didn't come from themselves but was given to them by outsiders. All this yields a high likelihood that the name Crete came from the Semitic verb כרת (karat), meaning to round up and cut off:

https://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Crete.html

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7 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

I'll wait for your response, after you read the paper/article.

I'm pretty much with Colin Renfew, but the Phoenicians were the only Canaanites who were matrilineal. Showing they got it somewhere else. And like I said. I think the Minoans were Anatolian Farmers who came from there and were known sailors. Not Semites out of North Africa, who mostly weren't. Then I don't see evidence for the Minoans worshipping a male supreme deity related to El. Who was the primary Semitic god.

But of course they swapped cultures. Just like the Siouian and Algonquians did during the Hopewell Horizon.

 

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2 minutes ago, Piney said:

I'm pretty much with Colin Renfew, but the Phoenicians were the only Canaanites who were matrilineal. Showing they got it somewhere else. And like I said. I think the Minoans were Anatolian Farmers who came from there and were known sailors. Not Semites out of North Africa, who mostly weren't. Then I don't see evidence for the Minoans worshipping a male supreme deity related to El. Who was the primary Semitic god.

But of course they swapped cultures. Just like the Siouian and Algonquians did during the Hopewell Horizon.

 

Colin Renfrew's theory was wrong. And thàt you should have known when you read the paper. Well, *I* thought it was convincing.

And...whatever their genetic ancestry, the Minoans may have spoken a semitic language.

You are part Native American, right?

What language do you use when talking with your neighbours, officials, and so on?

English...?

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3 minutes ago, Piney said:

This is a Christian nutter's website destroying the Koine language.

@Abramelin It's a Christian Scientist webshite. 😬

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4 minutes ago, Piney said:

This is a Christian nutter's website destroying the Koine language.

Don't worry: there are other sites saying the same thing.

And if you read the rest of that site, you'll know they prefer the Greek etymology.

I wonder why...

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Just now, Abramelin said:

Colin Renfrew's theory was wrong. And thàt you should have known when you read the paper. Well, *I* thought it was convincing.

And...whatever their genetic ancestry, the Minoans may have spoken a semitic language.

You are part Native American, right?

What language do you use when talking with your neighbours, officials, and so on?

English...?

Part? 

Your either a member of a tribe or not. I am a member of a tribe. I speak my language and know my culture.  That is the definition of a Indian.

I think if the Minoans spoke a language related to a existing one it could be interpreted using the stems from that language. 

But I don't disagree with the paper on the Eastern influences. 

I speak English, Lakota or Spanish depending on who I'm talking to. 

I'm trying to learn to spreek Nederlanding now. 

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4 minutes ago, Piney said:

Part? 

Your either a member of a tribe or not. I am a member of a tribe. I speak my language and know my culture.  That is the definition of a Indian.

I think if the Minoans spoke a language related to a existing one it could be interpreted using the stems from that language. 

But I don't disagree with the paper on the Eastern influences. 

I speak English, Lakota or Spanish depending on who I'm talking to. 

I'm trying to learn to spreek Nederlanding now. 

Piney, you may be a member of your tribe, but you have posted many times about your mixed ancestry.

You're part Dutch. You're trying to learn the Dutch language. Why?

 

Now, Ì think some semitic language was the lingua franca in ancient Crete.

So, when they set out to other countries along the Med, and beyond the Med, they used that lingua franca, like you and me would use English when visiting a foreign country.

-----

Btw, it's not 'Nederlanding', but 'Nederlands'.

 

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8 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Piney, you may be a member of your tribe, but you have posted many times about your mixed ancestry.

You're part Dutch. You're trying to learn the Dutch language. Why?

 

Now, Ì think some semitic language was the lingua franca in ancient Crete.

So, when they set out to other countries along the Med, and beyond the Med, they used that lingua franca, like you and me would use English when visiting a foreign country.

-----

Btw, it's not 'Nederlanding', but 'Nederlands'.

 

No Dutch. My White ancestors were Swedish, Bavarian and English. The Ramapough Lenape are mixed with Dutch. The Southern Unami are mixed with Swedish and Quaker.

I'm learning Dutch to annoy my sister and her Dutch friends.

It's a good possibility Phoenician was the commerce language. Or some sort of Phoenician trade pidgin. 

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6 minutes ago, Piney said:

It's a good possibility Phoenician was the commerce language. Or some sort of Phoenician trade pidgin. 

I actually think it was some mix of Phoenician and Akkadian. But some semitic language anyway.

And I also think the Minoans used that language to converse with the natives of whatever country they visited on their travels.

They were not semites - or better: Canaanites - but they used a semite language on their travels abroad.

But I still think the Minoans and Canaanites were much more related than by mere language.

Read the paper.

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1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

I actually think it was some mix of Phoenician and Akkadian. But some semitic language anyway.

And I also think the Minoans used that language to converse with the natives of whatever country they visited on their travels.

They were not semites - or better: Canaanites - but they used a semite language on their travels abroad.

But I still think the Minoans and Canaanites were much more related than by mere language.

Read the paper.

I hit Martin Bernal and although he makes some good points he's too Afrocentric for me and I thought 'Black Athena' was trash. It was the IE who brought bronze metallurgy to the Near East. Not Semites.

Check out the wiki page on it. 

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9 hours ago, Piney said:

I hit Martin Bernal and although he makes some good points he's too Afrocentric for me and I thought 'Black Athena' was trash. It was the IE who brought bronze metallurgy to the Near East. Not Semites.

Check out the wiki page on it. 

I knew you would mention Bernal, but this is not about Africa.

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5 hours ago, Abramelin said:

I knew you would mention Bernal, but this is not about Africa.

There isn't any archaeological or linguistic proof of what Bernal says.

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6 hours ago, Piney said:

There isn't any archaeological or linguistic proof of what Bernal says.

There is archaeological proof, and you simply reject linguistical proof that contradicts what you have learned. NO ONE KNOWS what language the Minoans spoke.

I think there is a very strong connection between Minoans and Phoenicians

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3 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

There is archaeological proof, 

Not of any Egyptian or Phoenician settlement in Crete.

3 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

you simply reject linguistical proof that contradicts what you have learned.

This..... VVVV

3 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

NO ONE KNOWS what language the Minoans spoke.

 

3 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

I think there is a very strong connection between Minoans and Phoenicians

No doubt. But not in religion or language.

 

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6 minutes ago, Piney said:

No doubt. But not in religion or language.

 

Did you read the paper, or had you already made your mind up as soon as you read Bernal's name?

 

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23 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

NO ONE KNOWS what language the Minoans spoke.

 

So, what language do you think they spoke?

It could have been Luwian (Woudhuizen).

But *I* was talking about a Semitic lingua franca, like many use English when travelling to some exotic foreign country.

 

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Just now, Abramelin said:

Did you read the paper, or had you already made your mind up as soon as you read Bernal's name?

 

I read the paper and disagree with the defense of Bernal. The Minoans probably did it on their own and most likely taught the Phoenicians ship building.

As for the language.

Let me put this simply...

IF MINOAN WAS RELATED TO ANY KNOWN LANGUAGE IT WOULD BE AT LEAST PARTIALLY DECIPHERABLE. 

Yoruk and Algonquian are 8,000 years apart, they share stems and a relationship can be shown.

 

 

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Just now, Abramelin said:

So, what language do you think they spoke?

There is no known relationship to any.

Just now, Abramelin said:

It could have been Luwian (Woudhuizen).

No relation shown.

Just now, Abramelin said:

But *I* was talking about a Semitic lingua franca, like many use English when travelling to some exotic foreign country.

 

I agree. It could of been Egyptian too. 

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2 minutes ago, Piney said:

I read the paper and disagree with the defense of Bernal. The Minoans probably did it on their own and most likely taught the Phoenicians ship building.

You just don't like Renfrew being proven wrong.

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