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The Sealed Book of Revelation 5:1: A NEW Theory and a challenging question!


TheOneInsideTheZero

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There is really no point in all of this senseless arguing. I came here to share some "Unsolved Mysteries" in my life hoping to get some intelligent replies. While I did get a few and for those I'm thankful some of these other one are meant to put me down and take what I hold dear from 25 years of seeking as utter bull****. Well so be. Have it your way. Keep interpreting those ancient languages, buying into the historical context. Enjoy. 

I'm out.

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3 minutes ago, TheOneInsideTheZero said:

take what I hold dear from 25 years of seeking as utter bull****.

Yeah, happens to a lot of us. Years dedicated to a belief of some sort. Only to realize that such a belief or beliefs are nonsense. Been there done that. Better off having realized it too.

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26 minutes ago, TheOneInsideTheZero said:

There is really no point in all of this senseless arguing. I came here to share some "Unsolved Mysteries" in my life hoping to get some intelligent replies. While I did get a few and for those I'm thankful some of these other one are meant to put me down and take what I hold dear from 25 years of seeking as utter bull****. Well so be. Have it your way. Keep interpreting those ancient languages, buying into the historical context. Enjoy. 

I'm out.

 

This is a hard crowd. There's no denying it. But believe it or not, they all mean well. 

Stay the course. Your contributions are not unappreciated.

 

 

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1 hour ago, TheOneInsideTheZero said:

There is really no point in all of this senseless arguing. I came here to share some "Unsolved Mysteries" in my life hoping to get some intelligent replies. While I did get a few and for those I'm thankful some of these other one are meant to put me down and take what I hold dear from 25 years of seeking as utter bull****. Well so be. Have it your way. Keep interpreting those ancient languages, buying into the historical context. Enjoy. 

I'm out.

If a 25 year held theory cannot withstand questioning from a PE teacher it’s not built on the most solid of foundations, sorry. 
please stay though, the pressure of our inquiries might cause it to become diamonds. 

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3 hours ago, TheOneInsideTheZero said:

Let me ask you something smart a$$ is truth relative or absolute or both?

HI TheOne

Truth can be subjective and neither relative or absolute, lots of people make up their own truths and try to peddle them to others. 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, TheOneInsideTheZero said:

Let me ask you something smart a$$ is truth relative or absolute or both?

Have you ever lied to yourself? I know people that do, sometimes myself, too. So, some "truths" are in the eye of the beholder that no one else can ever see.

Edited by Hammerclaw
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On 6/6/2024 at 7:52 PM, TheOneInsideTheZero said:


Anyways, thanks for your reply. Hope you found this interesting.

That was a mighty big post, so I trimmed it a little, but yes, I did find it interesting.

If I had a complaint it would be that you are flipping words from other languages into English and then assuming that English holds a meaningful cypher from them.  If I was looking for cyphers from Hebrew, Greek, or Aramaic source documents, I would be looking for them in the source language, not English.  I hope you are familiar with Gematria and the Greek equivalent?

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4 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

please stay though, the pressure of our inquiries might cause it to become diamonds. 

Diamonds are pressed carbon, and BS has lots of carbon, but putting BS under pressure will not make diamonds.

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10 hours ago, TheOneInsideTheZero said:

Let me ask you something smart a$$ is truth relative or absolute or both?

 

Truth is inconcussible :)

 

 

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18 hours ago, TheOneInsideTheZero said:

Why are you getting so hostile or upset. I'm just sharing a very small piece of a 25 year journey that you know nothing of. I think if I were you I would seek first to understand where people like myself are coming from then to be understood. You might find yourself growing more that way as all of us hold a piece of the truth puzzle not just you. So I tell you what if you are just going to sit here and belittle me and call my truth seeking making lego comparrisson why not just move on? I mean why bother putting me down and that in front of everyone? Where is it getting you or any one else? So I would kindly ask just leave or have a change of heart if you actually find any of this remotely interesting and maybe you find something you never knew where there. 

If anyone else thinks what I am doing is lego comparrisons please chime in right now and then I will know not reveal anything else of my spiritual journey on this forum. Anyone?

This is a discussion situation, you create a thread you invite opinions and all are welcome. At best you have a strong conviction and attachment to what you believe, which is fine but no one else has to accept your opinion no questions asked. For me, it doesn’t sound like this is anything more than confirmation bias at this point, yet thanks for sharing nonetheless. 

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Just another bush-prophet running into the wall on UM.

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On 6/5/2024 at 10:36 PM, TheOneInsideTheZero said:

There is a long, intriguing story behind what I am about to share with you all spanning the last 25 years of my life since 1999. I have a theory that the sealed book spoken of in Revelation 5:1 is somehow cleverly concealed and hidden with the verse itself and so too are the seals to open it by anyone worthy to do so. Without anything further here is the kjv of the verse and my commentary below it. I will give you 6 clues that support my theory and ask you my question.

If you have a theory about it at all, it means you believe it.  The human mind is a creator mind...we create things, works of fiction in literature, art, sculpture, ideologies, etc.  We are very creative and we are very territorial and tend to protect our creations. Not everyone is going to like my music or art and not everyone is going to like my opinions or  yours.  

  

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15 hours ago, ReadTheGreatControversyEGW said:

So you do not believe that there will be a literal second advent of Christ? If so, how do you make sense of all the various New Testament references to this very event? here's one: 

9. "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11. Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

Nobody believes the second advent literally except American cults.

"In truth I tell you before this generation has passed away, all these things will have taken place." Matthew 24:34

Aannnnd.. It looks like you all missed the boat...

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7 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

Truth is inconcussible :)

 

 

Will, the statement "truth is inconcussible" if this is being interpreted in the context of absolute, immutable truth that is unassailable and beyond question, which in your case, it most likely is simply does not align because in the context you advance it is subject to interpretation, perspective, and context. In reality, truth is complex and multifaceted, influenced by individual perceptions, biases, and the limitations of human understanding.
 

Then there is empirical evidence and objective facts that play a integral role in determining truth in many contexts, the interpretation and application of truth will vary based on different perspectives and experiences. Therefore, the concept of “truth as inconcussable” doesn’t accurately capture the nuanced and dynamic nature of truth in everyday life.

 

What you are saying is that for you —your conviction in the UB is beyond reproach to you, which is fine as it serves you in some way, but as a solid representation of truth —it falls short. 

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Posted (edited)
On 6/5/2024 at 9:36 PM, TheOneInsideTheZero said:

 Would you all like to hear more

 

Yes, I for one would like to hear more from you.

 

On 6/5/2024 at 9:36 PM, TheOneInsideTheZero said:

and offer you input? 

 

Yes, I would like to offer my input.

Contained in the revelations of the Urantia Book are the predictions of Jesus about the destruction of Jerusalem and the possibility of his second coming. They follow below.

Many of the posters here are aware of the UB and that from time to time, I post things from it. I don't do it as much as I used to but I do feel it's appropriate to do it this time.

A lot of the skeptics here have let me know that they're tired of me quoting it so I've kept it to a minimum. But in case you're interested, I've put the quote from it in a spoiler box.

In my opinion, what's written in the UB about the destruction of Jerusalem and the second coming is one of the most important things written in it. What it says goes a long way to clearing up a lot of the misconceptions surrounding those two things. 

A lot of the skeptics here have stated that everything written in the UB is fiction and I don't see that that's a problem. I will suggest that even if it's looked upon that way, what it says about these issues is still interesting and I hope you might take a peek at what the Urantia Book has to say.

 

 

Spoiler

As Jesus and the apostles passed out of the temple on their way to the Gethsemane camp, Matthew, calling attention to the temple construction, said: “Master, observe what manner of buildings these are. See the massive stones and the beautiful adornment; can it be that these buildings are to be destroyed?” As they went on toward Olivet, Jesus said: “You see these stones and this massive temple; verily, verily, I say to you: In the days soon to come there shall not be left one stone upon another. They shall all be thrown down.” These remarks depicting the destruction of the sacred temple aroused the curiosity of the apostles as they walked along behind the Master; they could conceive of no event short of the end of the world which would occasion the destruction of the temple.

In order to avoid the crowds passing along the Kidron valley toward Gethsemane, Jesus and his associates were minded to climb up the western slope of Olivet for a short distance and then follow a trail over to their private camp near Gethsemane located a short distance above the public camping ground. As they turned to leave the road leading on to Bethany, they observed the temple, glorified by the rays of the setting sun; and while they tarried on the mount, they saw the lights of the city appear and beheld the beauty of the illuminated temple; and there, under the mellow light of the full moon, Jesus and the twelve sat down. The Master talked with them, and presently Nathaniel asked this question: “Tell us, Master, how shall we know when these events are about to come to pass?”

 

 

The Destruction of Jerusalem

In answering Nathaniel’s question, Jesus said: “Yes, I will tell you about the times when this people shall have filled up the cup of their iniquity; when justice shall swiftly descend upon this city of our fathers. I am about to leave you; I go to the Father. After I leave you, take heed that no man deceive you, for many will come as deliverers and will lead many astray. When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, be not troubled, for though all these things will happen, the end of Jerusalem is not yet at hand. You should not be perturbed by famines or earthquakes; neither should you be concerned when you are delivered up to the civil authorities and are persecuted for the sake of the gospel. You will be thrown out of the synagogue and put in prison for my sake, and some of you will be killed. When you are brought up before governors and rulers, it shall be for a testimony of your faith and to show your steadfastness in the gospel of the kingdom. And when you stand before judges, be not anxious beforehand as to what you should say, for the spirit will teach you in that very hour what you should answer your adversaries. In these days of travail, even your own kinsfolk, under the leadership of those who have rejected the Son of Man, will deliver you up to prison and death. For a time you may be hated by all men for my sake, but even in these persecutions I will not forsake you; my spirit will not desert you. Be patient! doubt not that this gospel of the kingdom will triumph over all enemies and, eventually, be proclaimed to all nations.”

Jesus paused while he looked down upon the city. The Master realized that the rejection of the spiritual concept of the Messiah, the determination to cling persistently and blindly to the material mission of the expected deliverer, would presently bring the Jews in direct conflict with the powerful Roman armies, and that such a contest could only result in the final and complete overthrow of the Jewish nation. When his people rejected his spiritual bestowal and refused to receive the light of heaven as it so mercifully shone upon them, they thereby sealed their doom as an independent people with a special spiritual mission on earth. Even the Jewish leaders subsequently recognized that it was this secular idea of the Messiah which directly led to the turbulence which eventually brought about their destruction.

Since Jerusalem was to become the cradle of the early gospel movement, Jesus did not want its teachers and preachers to perish in the terrible overthrow of the Jewish people in connection with the destruction of Jerusalem; wherefore did he give these instructions to his followers. Jesus was much concerned lest some of his disciples become involved in these soon-coming revolts and so perish in the downfall of Jerusalem.

Then Andrew inquired: “But, Master, if the Holy City and the temple are to be destroyed, and if you are not here to direct us, when should we forsake Jerusalem?” Said Jesus: “You may remain in the city after I have gone, even through these times of travail and bitter persecution, but when you finally see Jerusalem being encompassed by the Roman armies after the revolt of the false prophets, then will you know that her desolation is at hand; then must you flee to the mountains. Let none who are in the city and around about tarry to save aught, neither let those who are outside dare to enter therein. There will be great tribulation, for these will be the days of gentile vengeance. And after you have deserted the city, this disobedient people will fall by the edge of the sword and will be led captive into all nations; and so shall Jerusalem be trodden down by the gentiles. In the meantime, I warn you, be not deceived. If any man comes to you, saying, ‘Behold, here is the Deliverer,’ or ‘Behold, there is he,’ believe it not, for many false teachers will arise and many will be led astray; but you should not be deceived, for I have told you all this beforehand.”

The apostles sat in silence in the moonlight for a considerable time while these astounding predictions of the Master sank into their bewildered minds. And it was in conformity with this very warning that practically the entire group of believers and disciples fled from Jerusalem upon the first appearance of the Roman troops, finding a safe shelter in Pella to the north.

Even after this explicit warning, many of Jesus’ followers interpreted these predictions as referring to the changes which would obviously occur in Jerusalem when the reappearing of the Messiah would result in the establishment of the New Jerusalem and in the enlargement of the city to become the world’s capital. In their minds these Jews were determined to connect the destruction of the temple with the “end of the world.” They believed this New Jerusalem would fill all Palestine; that the end of the world would be followed by the immediate appearance of the “new heavens and the new earth.” And so it was not strange that Peter should say: “Master, we know that all things will pass away when the new heavens and the new earth appear, but how shall we know when you will return to bring all this about?”

When Jesus heard this, he was thoughtful for some time and then said: “You ever err since you always try to attach the new teaching to the old; you are determined to misunderstand all my teaching; you insist on interpreting the gospel in accordance with your established beliefs. Nevertheless, I will try to enlighten you.”

 

 

The Master’s Second Coming

On several occasions Jesus had made statements which led his hearers to infer that, while he intended presently to leave this world, he would most certainly return to consummate the work of the heavenly kingdom. As the conviction grew on his followers that he was going to leave them, and after he had departed from this world, it was only natural for all believers to lay fast hold upon these promises to return. The doctrine of the second coming of Christ thus became early incorporated into the teachings of the Christians, and almost every subsequent generation of disciples has devoutly believed this truth and has confidently looked forward to his sometime coming.

If they were to part with their Master and Teacher, how much more did these first disciples and the apostles grasp at this promise to return, and they lost no time in associating the predicted destruction of Jerusalem with this promised second coming. And they continued thus to interpret his words notwithstanding that, throughout this evening of instruction on Mount Olivet, the Master took particular pains to prevent just such a mistake.

In further answer to Peter’s question, Jesus said: “Why do you still look for the Son of Man to sit upon the throne of David and expect that the material dreams of the Jews will be fulfilled? Have I not told you all these years that my kingdom is not of this world? The things which you now look down upon are coming to an end, but this will be a new beginning out of which the gospel of the kingdom will go to all the world and this salvation will spread to all peoples. And when the kingdom shall have come to its full fruition, be assured that the Father in heaven will not fail to visit you with an enlarged revelation of truth and an enhanced demonstration of righteousness, even as he has already bestowed upon this world him who became the prince of darkness, and then Adam, who was followed by Melchizedek, and in these days, the Son of Man. And so will my Father continue to manifest his mercy and show forth his love, even to this dark and evil world. So also will I, after my Father has invested me with all power and authority, continue to follow your fortunes and to guide in the affairs of the kingdom by the presence of my spirit, who shall shortly be poured out upon all flesh. Even though I shall thus be present with you in spirit, I also promise that I will sometime return to this world, where I have lived this life in the flesh and achieved the experience of simultaneously revealing God to man and leading man to God. Very soon must I leave you and take up the work the Father has intrusted to my hands, but be of good courage, for I will sometime return. In the meantime, my Spirit of the Truth of a universe shall comfort and guide you.

“You behold me now in weakness and in the flesh, but when I return, it shall be with power and in the spirit. The eye of flesh beholds the Son of Man in the flesh, but only the eye of the spirit will behold the Son of Man glorified by the Father and appearing on earth in his own name.

“But the times of the reappearing of the Son of Man are known only in the councils of Paradise; not even the angels of heaven know when this will occur. However, you should understand that, when this gospel of the kingdom shall have been proclaimed to all the world for the salvation of all peoples, and when the fullness of the age has come to pass, the Father will send you another dispensational bestowal, or else the Son of Man will return to adjudge the age.

“And now concerning the travail of Jerusalem, about which I have spoken to you, even this generation will not pass away until my words are fulfilled; but concerning the times of the coming again of the Son of Man, no one in heaven or on earth may presume to speak. But you should be wise regarding the ripening of an age; you should be alert to discern the signs of the times. You know when the fig tree shows its tender branches and puts forth its leaves that summer is near. Likewise, when the world has passed through the long winter of material-mindedness and you discern the coming of the spiritual springtime of a new dispensation, should you know that the summertime of a new visitation draws near.

“But what is the significance of this teaching having to do with the coming of the Sons of God? Do you not perceive that, when each of you is called to lay down his life struggle and pass through the portal of death, you stand in the immediate presence of judgment, and that you are face to face with the facts of a new dispensation of service in the eternal plan of the infinite Father? What the whole world must face as a literal fact at the end of an age, you, as individuals, must each most certainly face as a personal experience when you reach the end of your natural life and thereby pass on to be confronted with the conditions and demands inherent in the next revelation of the eternal progression of the Father’s kingdom.”

Of all the discourses which the Master gave his apostles, none ever became so confused in their minds as this one, given this Tuesday evening on the Mount of Olives, regarding the twofold subject of the destruction of Jerusalem and his own second coming. There was, therefore, little agreement between the subsequent written accounts based on the memories of what the Master said on this extraordinary occasion. Consequently, when the records were left blank concerning much that was said that Tuesday evening, there grew up many traditions; and very early in the second century a Jewish apocalyptic about the Messiah written by one Selta, who was attached to the court of the Emperor Caligula, was bodily copied into the Matthew Gospel and subsequently added (in part) to the Mark and Luke records. It was in these writings of Selta that the parable of the ten virgins appeared. No part of the gospel record ever suffered such confusing misconstruction as this evening’s teaching. But the Apostle John never became thus confused.

As these thirteen men resumed their journey toward the camp, they were speechless and under great emotional tension. Judas had finally confirmed his decision to abandon his associates. It was a late hour when David Zebedee, John Mark, and a number of the leading disciples welcomed Jesus and the twelve to the new camp, but the apostles did not want to sleep; they wanted to know more about the destruction of Jerusalem, the Master’s departure, and the end of the world.

 

 

Later Discussion at the Camp

As they gathered about the campfire, some twenty of them, Thomas asked: “Since you are to return to finish the work of the kingdom, what should be our attitude while you are away on the Father’s business?” As Jesus looked them over by the firelight, he answered:

“And even you, Thomas, fail to comprehend what I have been saying. Have I not all this time taught you that your connection with the kingdom is spiritual and individual, wholly a matter of personal experience in the spirit by the faith-realization that you are a son of God? What more shall I say? The downfall of nations, the crash of empires, the destruction of the unbelieving Jews, the end of an age, even the end of the world, what have these things to do with one who believes this gospel, and who has hid his life in the surety of the eternal kingdom? You who are God-knowing and gospel-believing have already received the assurances of eternal life. Since your lives have been lived in the spirit and for the Father, nothing can be of serious concern to you. Kingdom builders, the accredited citizens of the heavenly worlds, are not to be disturbed by temporal upheavals or perturbed by terrestrial cataclysms. What does it matter to you who believe this gospel of the kingdom if nations overturn, the age ends, or all things visible crash, since you know that your life is the gift of the Son, and that it is eternally secure in the Father? Having lived the temporal life by faith and having yielded the fruits of the spirit as the righteousness of loving service for your fellows, you can confidently look forward to the next step in the eternal career with the same survival faith that has carried you through your first and earthly adventure in sonship with God.

“Each generation of believers should carry on their work, in view of the possible return of the Son of Man, exactly as each individual believer carries forward his lifework in view of inevitable and ever-impending natural death. When you have by faith once established yourself as a son of God, nothing else matters as regards the surety of survival. But make no mistake! this survival faith is a living faith, and it increasingly manifests the fruits of that divine spirit which first inspired it in the human heart. That you have once accepted sonship in the heavenly kingdom will not save you in the face of the knowing and persistent rejection of those truths which have to do with the progressive spiritual fruit-bearing of the sons of God in the flesh. You who have been with me in the Father’s business on earth can even now desert the kingdom if you find that you love not the way of the Father’s service for mankind.

“As individuals, and as a generation of believers, hear me while I speak a parable: There was a certain great man who, before starting out on a long journey to another country, called all his trusted servants before him and delivered into their hands all his goods. To one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one. And so on down through the entire group of honored stewards, to each he intrusted his goods according to their several abilities; and then he set out on his journey. When their lord had departed, his servants set themselves at work to gain profits from the wealth intrusted to them. Immediately he who had received five talents began to trade with them and very soon had made a profit of another five talents. In like manner he who had received two talents soon had gained two more. And so did all of these servants make gains for their master except him who received but one talent. He went away by himself and dug a hole in the earth where he hid his lord’s money. Presently the lord of those servants unexpectedly returned and called upon his stewards for a reckoning. And when they had all been called before their master, he who had received the five talents came forward with the money which had been intrusted to him and brought five additional talents, saying, ‘Lord, you gave me five talents to invest, and I am glad to present five other talents as my gain.’ And then his lord said to him: ‘Well done, good and faithful servant, you have been faithful over a few things; I will now set you as steward over many; enter forthwith into the joy of your lord.’ And then he who had received the two talents came forward, saying: ‘Lord, you delivered into my hands two talents; behold, I have gained these other two talents.’ And his lord then said to him: ‘Well done, good and faithful steward; you also have been faithful over a few things, and I will now set you over many; enter you into the joy of your lord.’ And then there came to the accounting he who had received the one talent. This servant came forward, saying, ‘Lord, I knew you and realized that you were a shrewd man in that you expected gains where you had not personally labored; therefore was I afraid to risk aught of that which was intrusted to me. I safely hid your talent in the earth; here it is; you now have what belongs to you.’ But his lord answered: ‘You are an indolent and slothful steward. By your own words you confess that you knew I would require of you an accounting with reasonable profit, such as your diligent fellow servants have this day rendered. Knowing this, you ought, therefore, to have at least put my money into the hands of the bankers that on my return I might have received my own with interest.’ And then to the chief steward this lord said: ‘Take away this one talent from this unprofitable servant and give it to him who has the ten talents.’

“To every one who has, more shall be given, and he shall have abundance; but from him who has not, even that which he has shall be taken away. You cannot stand still in the affairs of the eternal kingdom. My Father requires all his children to grow in grace and in a knowledge of the truth. You who know these truths must yield the increase of the fruits of the spirit and manifest a growing devotion to the unselfish service of your fellow servants. And remember that, inasmuch as you minister to one of the least of my brethren, you have done this service to me.

“And so should you go about the work of the Father’s business, now and henceforth, even forevermore. Carry on until I come. In faithfulness do that which is intrusted to you, and thereby shall you be ready for the reckoning call of death. And having thus lived for the glory of the Father and the satisfaction of the Son, you shall enter with joy and exceedingly great pleasure into the eternal service of the everlasting kingdom.”

Truth is living; the Spirit of Truth is ever leading the children of light into new realms of spiritual reality and divine service. You are not given truth to crystallize into settled, safe, and honored forms. Your revelation of truth must be so enhanced by passing through your personal experience that new beauty and actual spiritual gains will be disclosed to all who behold your spiritual fruits and in consequence thereof are led to glorify the Father who is in heaven. Only those faithful servants who thus grow in the knowledge of the truth, and who thereby develop the capacity for divine appreciation of spiritual realities, can ever hope to “enter fully into the joy of their Lord.” What a sorry sight for successive generations of the professed followers of Jesus to say, regarding their stewardship of divine truth: “Here, Master, is the truth you committed to us a hundred or a thousand years ago. We have lost nothing; we have faithfully preserved all you gave us; we have allowed no changes to be made in that which you taught us; here is the truth you gave us.” But such a plea concerning spiritual indolence will not justify the barren steward of truth in the presence of the Master. In accordance with the truth committed to your hands will the Master of truth require a reckoning.

In the next world you will be asked to give an account of the endowments and stewardships of this world. Whether inherent talents are few or many, a just and merciful reckoning must be faced. If endowments are used only in selfish pursuits and no thought is bestowed upon the higher duty of obtaining increased yield of the fruits of the spirit, as they are manifested in the ever-expanding service of men and the worship of God, such selfish stewards must accept the consequences of their deliberate choosing.

And how much like all selfish mortals was this unfaithful servant with the one talent in that he blamed his slothfulness directly upon his lord. How prone is man, when he is confronted with the failures of his own making, to put the blame upon others, oftentimes upon those who least deserve it!

Said Jesus that night as they went to their rest: “Freely have you received; therefore freely should you give of the truth of heaven, and in the giving will this truth multiply and show forth the increasing light of saving grace, even as you minister it.”

 

 

https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-standardized/paper-176-tuesday-evening-mount-olivet

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Will Due
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3 hours ago, Piney said:

Nobody believes the second advent literally except American cults.

"In truth I tell you before this generation has passed away, all these things will have taken place." Matthew 24:34

Aannnnd.. It looks like you all missed the boat...

Not true, there is still someone alive from that generation - the “wandering Jew”, so there 😛 theology intact. 

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Just now, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Not true, there is still someone alive from that generation - the “wandering Jew”, so there 😛 theology intact. 

I can't think of a ****ing thing to write.....😬

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12 minutes ago, Piney said:

I can't think of a ****ing thing to write.....😬

SWOH introduces the new “God of the gaps” argument “God of legal loopholes”. You cannot beat it, because of how “well” the Bible was written and translated over the centuries. 

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Just now, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

SWOH introduces the new “God of the gaps” argument “God of legal loopholes”. You cannot beat it, because of how “well” the Bible was written and translated over the centuries. 

🤯

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1 hour ago, Sherapy said:

truth is complex and multifaceted, influenced by individual perceptions, biases, and the limitations of human understanding.

 

Thanks for expressing your opinion about truth. It helps to understand why you make the statements you make. 

Now if you don't mind, based on what you said, I will state my opinion.

 

Your perception of truth is complex and multifaceted. This perception is influenced by your biases and the limitations of your understanding. ;)

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Will Due said:

 

Yes, I for one would like to hear more from you.

 

 

Yes, I would like to offer my input.

Contained in the revelations of the Urantia Book are the predictions of Jesus about the destruction of Jerusalem and the possibility of his second coming. They follow below.

Many of the posters here are aware of the UB and that from time to time, I post things from it. I don't do it as much as I used to but I do feel it's appropriate to do it this time.

A lot of the skeptics here have let me know that they're tired of me quoting it so I've kept it to a minimum. But in case you're interested, I've put the quote from it in a spoiler box.

In my opinion, what's written in the UB about the destruction of Jerusalem and the second coming is one of the most important things written in it. What it says goes a long way to clearing up a lot of the misconceptions surrounding those two things. 

A lot of the skeptics here have stated that everything written in the UB is fiction and I don't see that that's a problem. I will suggest that even if it's looked upon that way, what it says about these issues is still interesting and I hope you might take a peek at what the Urantia Book has to say.

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

As Jesus and the apostles passed out of the temple on their way to the Gethsemane camp, Matthew, calling attention to the temple construction, said: “Master, observe what manner of buildings these are. See the massive stones and the beautiful adornment; can it be that these buildings are to be destroyed?” As they went on toward Olivet, Jesus said: “You see these stones and this massive temple; verily, verily, I say to you: In the days soon to come there shall not be left one stone upon another. They shall all be thrown down.” These remarks depicting the destruction of the sacred temple aroused the curiosity of the apostles as they walked along behind the Master; they could conceive of no event short of the end of the world which would occasion the destruction of the temple.

In order to avoid the crowds passing along the Kidron valley toward Gethsemane, Jesus and his associates were minded to climb up the western slope of Olivet for a short distance and then follow a trail over to their private camp near Gethsemane located a short distance above the public camping ground. As they turned to leave the road leading on to Bethany, they observed the temple, glorified by the rays of the setting sun; and while they tarried on the mount, they saw the lights of the city appear and beheld the beauty of the illuminated temple; and there, under the mellow light of the full moon, Jesus and the twelve sat down. The Master talked with them, and presently Nathaniel asked this question: “Tell us, Master, how shall we know when these events are about to come to pass?”

 

 

The Destruction of Jerusalem

In answering Nathaniel’s question, Jesus said: “Yes, I will tell you about the times when this people shall have filled up the cup of their iniquity; when justice shall swiftly descend upon this city of our fathers. I am about to leave you; I go to the Father. After I leave you, take heed that no man deceive you, for many will come as deliverers and will lead many astray. When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, be not troubled, for though all these things will happen, the end of Jerusalem is not yet at hand. You should not be perturbed by famines or earthquakes; neither should you be concerned when you are delivered up to the civil authorities and are persecuted for the sake of the gospel. You will be thrown out of the synagogue and put in prison for my sake, and some of you will be killed. When you are brought up before governors and rulers, it shall be for a testimony of your faith and to show your steadfastness in the gospel of the kingdom. And when you stand before judges, be not anxious beforehand as to what you should say, for the spirit will teach you in that very hour what you should answer your adversaries. In these days of travail, even your own kinsfolk, under the leadership of those who have rejected the Son of Man, will deliver you up to prison and death. For a time you may be hated by all men for my sake, but even in these persecutions I will not forsake you; my spirit will not desert you. Be patient! doubt not that this gospel of the kingdom will triumph over all enemies and, eventually, be proclaimed to all nations.”

Jesus paused while he looked down upon the city. The Master realized that the rejection of the spiritual concept of the Messiah, the determination to cling persistently and blindly to the material mission of the expected deliverer, would presently bring the Jews in direct conflict with the powerful Roman armies, and that such a contest could only result in the final and complete overthrow of the Jewish nation. When his people rejected his spiritual bestowal and refused to receive the light of heaven as it so mercifully shone upon them, they thereby sealed their doom as an independent people with a special spiritual mission on earth. Even the Jewish leaders subsequently recognized that it was this secular idea of the Messiah which directly led to the turbulence which eventually brought about their destruction.

Since Jerusalem was to become the cradle of the early gospel movement, Jesus did not want its teachers and preachers to perish in the terrible overthrow of the Jewish people in connection with the destruction of Jerusalem; wherefore did he give these instructions to his followers. Jesus was much concerned lest some of his disciples become involved in these soon-coming revolts and so perish in the downfall of Jerusalem.

Then Andrew inquired: “But, Master, if the Holy City and the temple are to be destroyed, and if you are not here to direct us, when should we forsake Jerusalem?” Said Jesus: “You may remain in the city after I have gone, even through these times of travail and bitter persecution, but when you finally see Jerusalem being encompassed by the Roman armies after the revolt of the false prophets, then will you know that her desolation is at hand; then must you flee to the mountains. Let none who are in the city and around about tarry to save aught, neither let those who are outside dare to enter therein. There will be great tribulation, for these will be the days of gentile vengeance. And after you have deserted the city, this disobedient people will fall by the edge of the sword and will be led captive into all nations; and so shall Jerusalem be trodden down by the gentiles. In the meantime, I warn you, be not deceived. If any man comes to you, saying, ‘Behold, here is the Deliverer,’ or ‘Behold, there is he,’ believe it not, for many false teachers will arise and many will be led astray; but you should not be deceived, for I have told you all this beforehand.”

The apostles sat in silence in the moonlight for a considerable time while these astounding predictions of the Master sank into their bewildered minds. And it was in conformity with this very warning that practically the entire group of believers and disciples fled from Jerusalem upon the first appearance of the Roman troops, finding a safe shelter in Pella to the north.

Even after this explicit warning, many of Jesus’ followers interpreted these predictions as referring to the changes which would obviously occur in Jerusalem when the reappearing of the Messiah would result in the establishment of the New Jerusalem and in the enlargement of the city to become the world’s capital. In their minds these Jews were determined to connect the destruction of the temple with the “end of the world.” They believed this New Jerusalem would fill all Palestine; that the end of the world would be followed by the immediate appearance of the “new heavens and the new earth.” And so it was not strange that Peter should say: “Master, we know that all things will pass away when the new heavens and the new earth appear, but how shall we know when you will return to bring all this about?”

When Jesus heard this, he was thoughtful for some time and then said: “You ever err since you always try to attach the new teaching to the old; you are determined to misunderstand all my teaching; you insist on interpreting the gospel in accordance with your established beliefs. Nevertheless, I will try to enlighten you.”

 

 

The Master’s Second Coming

On several occasions Jesus had made statements which led his hearers to infer that, while he intended presently to leave this world, he would most certainly return to consummate the work of the heavenly kingdom. As the conviction grew on his followers that he was going to leave them, and after he had departed from this world, it was only natural for all believers to lay fast hold upon these promises to return. The doctrine of the second coming of Christ thus became early incorporated into the teachings of the Christians, and almost every subsequent generation of disciples has devoutly believed this truth and has confidently looked forward to his sometime coming.

If they were to part with their Master and Teacher, how much more did these first disciples and the apostles grasp at this promise to return, and they lost no time in associating the predicted destruction of Jerusalem with this promised second coming. And they continued thus to interpret his words notwithstanding that, throughout this evening of instruction on Mount Olivet, the Master took particular pains to prevent just such a mistake.

In further answer to Peter’s question, Jesus said: “Why do you still look for the Son of Man to sit upon the throne of David and expect that the material dreams of the Jews will be fulfilled? Have I not told you all these years that my kingdom is not of this world? The things which you now look down upon are coming to an end, but this will be a new beginning out of which the gospel of the kingdom will go to all the world and this salvation will spread to all peoples. And when the kingdom shall have come to its full fruition, be assured that the Father in heaven will not fail to visit you with an enlarged revelation of truth and an enhanced demonstration of righteousness, even as he has already bestowed upon this world him who became the prince of darkness, and then Adam, who was followed by Melchizedek, and in these days, the Son of Man. And so will my Father continue to manifest his mercy and show forth his love, even to this dark and evil world. So also will I, after my Father has invested me with all power and authority, continue to follow your fortunes and to guide in the affairs of the kingdom by the presence of my spirit, who shall shortly be poured out upon all flesh. Even though I shall thus be present with you in spirit, I also promise that I will sometime return to this world, where I have lived this life in the flesh and achieved the experience of simultaneously revealing God to man and leading man to God. Very soon must I leave you and take up the work the Father has intrusted to my hands, but be of good courage, for I will sometime return. In the meantime, my Spirit of the Truth of a universe shall comfort and guide you.

“You behold me now in weakness and in the flesh, but when I return, it shall be with power and in the spirit. The eye of flesh beholds the Son of Man in the flesh, but only the eye of the spirit will behold the Son of Man glorified by the Father and appearing on earth in his own name.

“But the times of the reappearing of the Son of Man are known only in the councils of Paradise; not even the angels of heaven know when this will occur. However, you should understand that, when this gospel of the kingdom shall have been proclaimed to all the world for the salvation of all peoples, and when the fullness of the age has come to pass, the Father will send you another dispensational bestowal, or else the Son of Man will return to adjudge the age.

“And now concerning the travail of Jerusalem, about which I have spoken to you, even this generation will not pass away until my words are fulfilled; but concerning the times of the coming again of the Son of Man, no one in heaven or on earth may presume to speak. But you should be wise regarding the ripening of an age; you should be alert to discern the signs of the times. You know when the fig tree shows its tender branches and puts forth its leaves that summer is near. Likewise, when the world has passed through the long winter of material-mindedness and you discern the coming of the spiritual springtime of a new dispensation, should you know that the summertime of a new visitation draws near.

“But what is the significance of this teaching having to do with the coming of the Sons of God? Do you not perceive that, when each of you is called to lay down his life struggle and pass through the portal of death, you stand in the immediate presence of judgment, and that you are face to face with the facts of a new dispensation of service in the eternal plan of the infinite Father? What the whole world must face as a literal fact at the end of an age, you, as individuals, must each most certainly face as a personal experience when you reach the end of your natural life and thereby pass on to be confronted with the conditions and demands inherent in the next revelation of the eternal progression of the Father’s kingdom.”

Of all the discourses which the Master gave his apostles, none ever became so confused in their minds as this one, given this Tuesday evening on the Mount of Olives, regarding the twofold subject of the destruction of Jerusalem and his own second coming. There was, therefore, little agreement between the subsequent written accounts based on the memories of what the Master said on this extraordinary occasion. Consequently, when the records were left blank concerning much that was said that Tuesday evening, there grew up many traditions; and very early in the second century a Jewish apocalyptic about the Messiah written by one Selta, who was attached to the court of the Emperor Caligula, was bodily copied into the Matthew Gospel and subsequently added (in part) to the Mark and Luke records. It was in these writings of Selta that the parable of the ten virgins appeared. No part of the gospel record ever suffered such confusing misconstruction as this evening’s teaching. But the Apostle John never became thus confused.

As these thirteen men resumed their journey toward the camp, they were speechless and under great emotional tension. Judas had finally confirmed his decision to abandon his associates. It was a late hour when David Zebedee, John Mark, and a number of the leading disciples welcomed Jesus and the twelve to the new camp, but the apostles did not want to sleep; they wanted to know more about the destruction of Jerusalem, the Master’s departure, and the end of the world.

 

 

Later Discussion at the Camp

As they gathered about the campfire, some twenty of them, Thomas asked: “Since you are to return to finish the work of the kingdom, what should be our attitude while you are away on the Father’s business?” As Jesus looked them over by the firelight, he answered:

“And even you, Thomas, fail to comprehend what I have been saying. Have I not all this time taught you that your connection with the kingdom is spiritual and individual, wholly a matter of personal experience in the spirit by the faith-realization that you are a son of God? What more shall I say? The downfall of nations, the crash of empires, the destruction of the unbelieving Jews, the end of an age, even the end of the world, what have these things to do with one who believes this gospel, and who has hid his life in the surety of the eternal kingdom? You who are God-knowing and gospel-believing have already received the assurances of eternal life. Since your lives have been lived in the spirit and for the Father, nothing can be of serious concern to you. Kingdom builders, the accredited citizens of the heavenly worlds, are not to be disturbed by temporal upheavals or perturbed by terrestrial cataclysms. What does it matter to you who believe this gospel of the kingdom if nations overturn, the age ends, or all things visible crash, since you know that your life is the gift of the Son, and that it is eternally secure in the Father? Having lived the temporal life by faith and having yielded the fruits of the spirit as the righteousness of loving service for your fellows, you can confidently look forward to the next step in the eternal career with the same survival faith that has carried you through your first and earthly adventure in sonship with God.

“Each generation of believers should carry on their work, in view of the possible return of the Son of Man, exactly as each individual believer carries forward his lifework in view of inevitable and ever-impending natural death. When you have by faith once established yourself as a son of God, nothing else matters as regards the surety of survival. But make no mistake! this survival faith is a living faith, and it increasingly manifests the fruits of that divine spirit which first inspired it in the human heart. That you have once accepted sonship in the heavenly kingdom will not save you in the face of the knowing and persistent rejection of those truths which have to do with the progressive spiritual fruit-bearing of the sons of God in the flesh. You who have been with me in the Father’s business on earth can even now desert the kingdom if you find that you love not the way of the Father’s service for mankind.

“As individuals, and as a generation of believers, hear me while I speak a parable: There was a certain great man who, before starting out on a long journey to another country, called all his trusted servants before him and delivered into their hands all his goods. To one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one. And so on down through the entire group of honored stewards, to each he intrusted his goods according to their several abilities; and then he set out on his journey. When their lord had departed, his servants set themselves at work to gain profits from the wealth intrusted to them. Immediately he who had received five talents began to trade with them and very soon had made a profit of another five talents. In like manner he who had received two talents soon had gained two more. And so did all of these servants make gains for their master except him who received but one talent. He went away by himself and dug a hole in the earth where he hid his lord’s money. Presently the lord of those servants unexpectedly returned and called upon his stewards for a reckoning. And when they had all been called before their master, he who had received the five talents came forward with the money which had been intrusted to him and brought five additional talents, saying, ‘Lord, you gave me five talents to invest, and I am glad to present five other talents as my gain.’ And then his lord said to him: ‘Well done, good and faithful servant, you have been faithful over a few things; I will now set you as steward over many; enter forthwith into the joy of your lord.’ And then he who had received the two talents came forward, saying: ‘Lord, you delivered into my hands two talents; behold, I have gained these other two talents.’ And his lord then said to him: ‘Well done, good and faithful steward; you also have been faithful over a few things, and I will now set you over many; enter you into the joy of your lord.’ And then there came to the accounting he who had received the one talent. This servant came forward, saying, ‘Lord, I knew you and realized that you were a shrewd man in that you expected gains where you had not personally labored; therefore was I afraid to risk aught of that which was intrusted to me. I safely hid your talent in the earth; here it is; you now have what belongs to you.’ But his lord answered: ‘You are an indolent and slothful steward. By your own words you confess that you knew I would require of you an accounting with reasonable profit, such as your diligent fellow servants have this day rendered. Knowing this, you ought, therefore, to have at least put my money into the hands of the bankers that on my return I might have received my own with interest.’ And then to the chief steward this lord said: ‘Take away this one talent from this unprofitable servant and give it to him who has the ten talents.’

“To every one who has, more shall be given, and he shall have abundance; but from him who has not, even that which he has shall be taken away. You cannot stand still in the affairs of the eternal kingdom. My Father requires all his children to grow in grace and in a knowledge of the truth. You who know these truths must yield the increase of the fruits of the spirit and manifest a growing devotion to the unselfish service of your fellow servants. And remember that, inasmuch as you minister to one of the least of my brethren, you have done this service to me.

“And so should you go about the work of the Father’s business, now and henceforth, even forevermore. Carry on until I come. In faithfulness do that which is intrusted to you, and thereby shall you be ready for the reckoning call of death. And having thus lived for the glory of the Father and the satisfaction of the Son, you shall enter with joy and exceedingly great pleasure into the eternal service of the everlasting kingdom.”

Truth is living; the Spirit of Truth is ever leading the children of light into new realms of spiritual reality and divine service. You are not given truth to crystallize into settled, safe, and honored forms. Your revelation of truth must be so enhanced by passing through your personal experience that new beauty and actual spiritual gains will be disclosed to all who behold your spiritual fruits and in consequence thereof are led to glorify the Father who is in heaven. Only those faithful servants who thus grow in the knowledge of the truth, and who thereby develop the capacity for divine appreciation of spiritual realities, can ever hope to “enter fully into the joy of their Lord.” What a sorry sight for successive generations of the professed followers of Jesus to say, regarding their stewardship of divine truth: “Here, Master, is the truth you committed to us a hundred or a thousand years ago. We have lost nothing; we have faithfully preserved all you gave us; we have allowed no changes to be made in that which you taught us; here is the truth you gave us.” But such a plea concerning spiritual indolence will not justify the barren steward of truth in the presence of the Master. In accordance with the truth committed to your hands will the Master of truth require a reckoning.

In the next world you will be asked to give an account of the endowments and stewardships of this world. Whether inherent talents are few or many, a just and merciful reckoning must be faced. If endowments are used only in selfish pursuits and no thought is bestowed upon the higher duty of obtaining increased yield of the fruits of the spirit, as they are manifested in the ever-expanding service of men and the worship of God, such selfish stewards must accept the consequences of their deliberate choosing.

And how much like all selfish mortals was this unfaithful servant with the one talent in that he blamed his slothfulness directly upon his lord. How prone is man, when he is confronted with the failures of his own making, to put the blame upon others, oftentimes upon those who least deserve it!

Said Jesus that night as they went to their rest: “Freely have you received; therefore freely should you give of the truth of heaven, and in the giving will this truth multiply and show forth the increasing light of saving grace, even as you minister it.”

 

 

https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-standardized/paper-176-tuesday-evening-mount-olivet

 

 

 

 

 

Will, read the first paragraph of your UB excerpt, it is clear as a heart attack that the account is fictional. The story uses  "anachronisms," this refers to something that is placed in a time period where it does not belong historically. Anachronisms include things like language, technology, or customs that are out of place for the time being portrayed in a story or event. In the UB excerpt it uses language like city lights, and camping grounds etc etc 

Of course, you are attached to your beliefs and interpretations and will continue to be this is just an add to as to how and why this is “obviously “ a fiction. 

 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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3 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Thanks for expressing your opinion about truth. It helps to understand why you make the statements you make. 

Now if you don't mind, based on what you said, I will state my opinion.

 

Your perception of truth is complex and multifaceted. This perception is influenced by your biases and the limitations of your understanding. ;)

 

 

 

This is you restating what I said goof ball you didn’t offer an opinion, Will. 🤣

 

Try again. 😂

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9 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Will, read the first paragraph of your UB excerpt, it is clear as a heart attack that the account is fictional. The story uses  "anachronisms," this refers to something that is placed in a time period where it does not belong historically. Anachronisms include things like language, technology, or customs that are out of place for the time being portrayed in a story or event. In the UB excerpt it uses language like city lights, and camping grounds etc etc 

Of course, you are attached to your beliefs and interpretations and will continue to be this is just an add to as to how and why this is “obviously “ a fiction. 

 

 

 

You don't think in ancient times that cities weren't lit at night with torches and contained fires as well as candlelight? And that campgrounds weren't provided for all the visitors coming to Jerusalem from all parts during Passover week?

Well, you're entitled to your opinion. :rolleyes:

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

You don't think in ancient times that cities weren't lit at night with torches and contained fires as well as candlelight? And that campgrounds weren't provided for all the visitors coming to Jerusalem from all parts during Passover week?

Well, you're entitled to your opinion. :rolleyes:

 

 

 

Will, did you even research it, or this is just off the top of your head? 

Edited by Sherapy
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On 6/5/2024 at 10:36 PM, TheOneInsideTheZero said:

There is a long, intriguing story behind what I am about to share with you all spanning the last 25 years of my life since 1999. I have a theory that the sealed book spoken of in Revelation 5:1 is somehow cleverly concealed and hidden with the verse itself and so too are the seals to open it by anyone worthy to do so. Without anything further here is the kjv of the verse and my commentary below it. I will give you 6 clues that support my theory and ask you my question.

"And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals."


Clue #1
Revelation 5:2 reveals something crucial when trying to figure out what this book is and how to find and open it. It says, "...Who is worthy to OPEN the book and to LOOSE the seals thereof". Who opens a book and then loosens the seals that keep it shut? One would think that you would loosen the seals first and then open the book. But this is a great clue that the book is sealed by the way it is written. This plays well into the story of the Tower of Babel but that's for another time.


Clue #2
We know from Revelation that Jesus's "Name is called the word of God" in that word are "Life and good, Death and evil" (Deu. 30:15) like a sharp double edge sword. "Study to show thyself a workman who needeth not be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth." The clue that stems from this is that when the Bible was originally written there were no spaces or punctuation between words or letters. That said how was it known were one word starts and another one ends? Be that as it may you could start Revelation 5:1 like this, "And I saw in..." or like this "And is a win..." with the exact same letters. My theory proposes that this is deliberate choice of words to hide the clues on what the sealed book is and how to open it. To support this claim, "Saw" has two meanings in English. Saw as in you saw something with your eyes or you saw something into something else like cutting it in. And my theory it's both. For he sees the word "And" being "Sawed" in and even shows this within the first 9 letters look:

AND  is  A  wi   N   (Do you see the anagram for "And" or "Dan" Sawed right into that phrase?"). The clue here is the writer will tell you something and show it to you at the same time. Tell me. Show me. This gets stunning as we proceed.


Clue #3
My theory says that the first half of the verse is describing what the writer saw and where he saw it. The second half of the verse offer clues on how to find it. The KJV of the verse has 98 letters in it half of which is 49 letters which splits the verse like this:

And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book
Written within and on the backside sealed with seven seals

So lets pick up the first clue found in the second half of the verse. It begins by stating something that on it's face is absurd. The sealed book is "Written within". If that was all that was meant by that then pretty silly as all books are written within right? But as you'll see the writer tells you something then show's you exactly what he means. For there hidden in plain sight sawed into or Written within that phrase is the word HINT written every other letter backward through it beginning with the H in within and ending in the 2 T in Written! So the 3rd clue is that words are written in skip sequences through other words and phases.


Clue #4
The very next phrase after "Written Within" is "And on The". So the question we should be asking ourselves is what is written within "And on The" But the "Don't". Is it a warning not to proceed? Is there some kind of danger in going in any further? Those are great questions I had to ask myself but couldn't stop myself once I started seeing this stuff you can't unsee. The clue here is that words appear between other words.


Clue #5
"Written within and on the backside" What does this phrase mean or particularly that the book is written on the backside as well? Here again we have the word "Disk" written backwards or on the bac  KSID e again tell me show me.


Clue #6
"Sealed with seven seals" This last clue is really just a simple bonus clue but something I would highly recommend looking out for. It says the book is Seale   DWITH "seven seals". Most people read that and think 7 when if you take the D at the end of the word Sealed and combine it with the word with just as it sounds it sounds like "Sealed Width "sevenseals" or 10 characters apart. That might sound a little strange a first but before you dismiss it (Mark 4:24 "See what you hear") That said the beginning of the second half of this verse Written within could sound like "Writ ten with in" (This is a command that the writer of James was talking about when he said "Do not merely read the word and so deceive yourself. DO WHAT IT SAYS") Anyhow there within the words "Writ ten with in" count 10 characters to the right of the "I" in "Wr"i"t and you will find that you land on the "N" in the word "In" at the end of the phrase "Wr  i  ttenwithi   n"


So here is my question. I have found other super interesting finds, clues and hints in this single verse and others like it. Would you all like to hear more and offer you input? Let me know in the comments as well as your thoughts.

Thanks.

There's some problems here, and the first would be that the King James Bible (notably) is not an exact translation of the Vulgate... which is not an exact translation of the original... and finally that the Bible is not a book that was dropped from heaven smack on top of someone -- it's a collection of books written over thousands of years by people, in several different languages.

None of the metaphors there are modern.  

None of the language is modern.

None of the cultures were like our modern culture.

It was a controversial book.  Many of the bishops didn't want it included in the Bible because they saw that the prophecies there (which were against Rome) had failed (https://www.npr.org/2012/03/07/148125942/the-book-of-revelation-visions-prophecy-politics#:~:text=On why the Book of,that those prophecies had failed.)

The meaning's not that obscure if you read the entire chapter.  The "seals" are on the back side of the book (per Revelation 5) (https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g4973/kjv/tr/0-1/)

And reading further, it says that Jesus takes the book and then breaks the seals. (also Revelation 5) and names the seals (the Horsemen and so forth.)

If there was some meaning in the "sawed" words, then it would have to be in the original language... and any interpretation would have to be in that language (since the book was written two centuries before any precursor form of the English language (the precursor language to English is actually German) existed... and more than a thousand years before the KJV version came out.

By the way, the KJV is actually a "politically corrected" version of the Bible.  Modern translators went back and corrected some of the omissions and rewritings: https://www.scholarscorner.com/king-james-only-the-controversy-over-bible-translations/

 

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