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Telegraph headline: covid vaccines may have helped rise in excess deaths.


ouija ouija

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Remember, it's only a short while ago that mention of, never mind discussion about, the connection between the covid vaccine and excess deaths was immediately shut down whenever it popped up. The media has avoided the subject like the plague. But suddenly it's headline news and 'experts call for more research into side effects and possible links to mortality rates'. Good!

"Excess mortality has remained high in the Western World for three consecutive years, despite the implementation of containment measures and COVID-19 vaccines. This raises serious concerns. Government leaders and policymakers need to thoroughly investigate underlying causes of persistent excess mortality."

https://bmjpublichealth.bmj.com/content/2/1/e000282

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/06/04/covid-vaccines-may-have-helped-fuel-rise-in-excess-deaths/

The following video is just 15mns long.

 

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, pellinore said:

Sorry, I don't understand what your point is. :unsure2: That seems to be the same as the second link that I posted.

Edited by ouija ouija
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57 minutes ago, ouija ouija said:

Sorry, I don't understand what your point is. :unsure2: That seems to be the same as the second link that I posted.

Your link is to the article hidden behind a paywall; my link is to the non-paywall version of the same article so non-Telegraph subscribers can read it.

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Still Waters said:

COVID vaccines saved millions of lives – linking them to excess deaths is a mistake

https://theconversation.com/covid-vaccines-saved-millions-of-lives-linking-them-to-excess-deaths-is-a-mistake-231776

The BMJ article quoted in the Telegraph talks about all the possible causes of excess deaths through the Covid policies pursued - which may have been due to lockdown and isolation so that people missed medical appoints, waiting lists getting longer, people took to alcohol, etc, etc, etc. But the Telegraph article I linked to has cherry-picked for dramatic purposes and Neil Oliver is as ill-informed as ever.

There is no doubt that getting vaxxed was the wisest thing to do, and still is.

Edited by pellinore
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@pellinore What is it exactly that you think Neil Oliver is ill-informed about?

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One way or another, excess deaths need a lot more scrutiny and accurate division into causes rather than biased assumption and guesswork.

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10 hours ago, ouija ouija said:

One way or another, excess deaths need a lot more scrutiny and accurate division into causes rather than biased assumption and guesswork.

Exactly.  They can mock and engage in ad homs but the reality is that the EXCESS deaths began the same year the vaccines were rolled out.  Correlation is not causation and that's the purpose of asking for research.  Since when did basic research, using epidemiological statistics, threaten anyone?  Why would ANY government not want to know if there is a connection?  

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8 hours ago, the13bats said:

unsupported opinions

Uh... that is precisely why basic research in the records is needed.  If there is no connection and a huge number of people believe this then what harm can it do to simply look at the numbers?  People who bow before the altar of science should be the LAST to refuse to use the scientific method on an obvious anomaly.  The data on excess deaths can be ignored but there are too many sources to disprove they are real.  

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, and-then said:

Uh... that is precisely why basic research in the records is needed.  If there is no connection and a huge number of people believe this then what harm can it do to simply look at the numbers?  People who bow before the altar of science should be the LAST to refuse to use the scientific method on an obvious anomaly.  The data on excess deaths can be ignored but there are too many sources to disprove they are real.  

Quote

Exactly.  They can mock and engage in ad homs but the reality is that the EXCESS deaths began the same year the vaccines were rolled out.  Correlation is not causation and that's the purpose of asking for research.  Since when did basic research, using epidemiological statistics, threaten anyone?  Why would ANY government not want to know if there is a connection?  

 

If you are referring to the rise of heart disease and cancer in young people, and their deaths, it has become increasingly so for the last two decades.  This increase in these two diseases among younger people, has nothing to do with the mRNA vaccines. Since you worked in the medical field and your wife works in medical, I would think you would know about that and know better. :lol: So why, a man in your previous positions, are you stirring needless unfounded suspicions like this? 

Edited by Katniss
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11 hours ago, the13bats said:

Then tell Neil Oliver not to cherry pick for his antivax agendas,

 

How does Neil Oliver 'cherry-pick' for his 'antivax agendas'? If you truly listened to him you would have observed that he is NOT anti-vax but rather anti the covid vaccines . . . which is not the same thing at all.

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Fact Check: No evidence to link UK excess deaths to COVID-19 vaccines

A suggestion that tens of thousands of excess deaths in the UK are linked to COVID-19 vaccines is misleading. The claim was made in a monologue by British television presenter Neil Oliver on GB News. In an 11-minute video clip posted to Facebook on Jan. 6 that has attracted 384,000 views, he says there have been more than 100,000 excess deaths in the United Kingdom since January 2022 and implies a link with the rollout of COVID vaccines.

https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/no-evidence-link-uk-excess-deaths-covid-19-vaccines-2024-02-06/

Perhaps Neil Oliver would like to explain the following stats:

The total number of excess deaths for 2022-2023, according to UK health agencies, is 72,575. ONS data also shows all-cause deaths in England and Wales were higher among the unvaccinated than those who had received at least one dose, for every month in its April 2021 to May 2023 dataset.

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1 hour ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

Fact Check: No evidence to link UK excess deaths to COVID-19 vaccines

A suggestion that tens of thousands of excess deaths in the UK are linked to COVID-19 vaccines is misleading. The claim was made in a monologue by British television presenter Neil Oliver on GB News. In an 11-minute video clip posted to Facebook on Jan. 6 that has attracted 384,000 views, he says there have been more than 100,000 excess deaths in the United Kingdom since January 2022 and implies a link with the rollout of COVID vaccines.

https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/no-evidence-link-uk-excess-deaths-covid-19-vaccines-2024-02-06/

Perhaps Neil Oliver would like to explain the following stats:

The total number of excess deaths for 2022-2023, according to UK health agencies, is 72,575. ONS data also shows all-cause deaths in England and Wales were higher among the unvaccinated than those who had received at least one dose, for every month in its April 2021 to May 2023 dataset.

There's 'No evidence to link UK excess deaths to COVID-19 vaccines' because there's been no proper separation of causes of excess deaths! It has even been suggested that many causes of deaths were incorrectly recorded. 

In your own post you state that Neil Oliver made a claim, but later in the same sentence you say he implies, a link between excess deaths and the vaccines. I would suggest it was closer to 'suggesting there could be a possible link' . . . a link that should be investigated to find out the truth.

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11 minutes ago, ouija ouija said:

There's 'No evidence to link UK excess deaths to COVID-19 vaccines' because there's been no proper separation of causes of excess deaths! It has even been suggested that many causes of deaths were incorrectly recorded. 

Please read the Reuters Fact Check, if you haven't already done so. It presents statistics and explanations. 

12 minutes ago, ouija ouija said:

In your own post you state that Neil Oliver made a claim, but later in the same sentence you say he implies, a link between excess deaths and the vaccines. I would suggest it was closer to 'suggesting there could be a possible link' . . . a link that should be investigated to find out the truth.

I personally stated no such thing. What you read was a quote from the article I posted.

Neil Oliver, however. did indeed make an unsupported claim. As for implying/suggesting (however you wish to describe it) a link between the vaccine and the number of excess deaths, the stats already indicate that's most likely not the case.

 

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The problem is, there's no way of knowing if the vaccine was the cause of a death or not! If a person had not had a vaccine/multiple vaccines would they still be alive? We can never know. We can never know if the vaccine was 'the straw that broke the camel's back'.

At General Practioner level, deaths were recorded with no consideration of whether the person who died had recently had the vaccine or not so how can we know? Unless each death is looked at individually and vaccine history noted and, I would say close family and carers interviewed, we can never get anywhere near the truth.

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1 hour ago, ouija ouija said:

There's 'No evidence to link UK excess deaths to COVID-19 vaccines' because there's been no proper separation of causes of excess deaths! It has even been suggested that many causes of deaths were incorrectly recorded. 

What conspiracy theorists and fear-mongers like Neil Oliver (who's also nowhere near a medical expert) conveniently fail to mention is that there are reporting requirements for healthcare professionals — they must report any death after COVID-19 vaccination even if it is unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. Whilst there have been rare instances of serious adverse reactions (such as myocarditis and pericarditis) comprehensive medical studies have shown no increased risk of death, and no unusual patterns of death, among COVID-19 vaccine recipients.

Bottom line: People receiving COVID vaccines are at no greater risk of death from non-COVID causes, than those who are unvaccinated. If anything, the vaccines have saved lives, not endangered them.

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It's crazy how this trend of excess deaths was predicted and now it's here. Didn't think I'd see quite so many headlines of high profile sportspeople dropping dead, guess thise that follow MSM will say they were all drinking or some such nonsense.

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4 hours ago, OpenMindedSceptic said:

It's crazy how this trend of excess deaths was predicted and now it's here. Didn't think I'd see quite so many headlines of high profile sportspeople dropping dead, guess thise that follow MSM will say they were all drinking or some such nonsense.

:lol: Oh no, they will more likely say it was myocarditis caused by covid-19 infection and guess what? They would be right! ;) Why? Because doctors diagnosed the cause and explain to MSM how it happens. Here is a nice example of that.

Quote

 

When Demi Washington, a basketball player at Vanderbilt University came down with COVID-19 in late 2020, her symptoms were mild, just a runny nose. But to ensure her safe return to the court, the school required her to undergo an MRI.

The results brought Washington to tears.

Following the infection, the now college graduate had developed myocarditis — when the heart muscle becomes inflamed, which can decrease the heart's ability to pump blood. The condition can lead to stroke or heart attack, according to Mayo Clinic. Washington was not vaccinated against COVID-19 at the time.

"I was scared because any internal organ, you’re like, 'Oh, my gosh, I need that to live,'" she recalled to TODAY. "I didn’t really know what was going to come of it, how long was it going to take for it to resolve."

 

and the possibilities as to why it happens.

Quote

 

Cheng called the connection "more than coincidental, that is for sure." Explaining why, she pointed out that COVID-19 can greatly impact the cardiovascular system.

"It appears to be able to increase the stickiness of the blood and increase ... the likelihood of blood clot formation," Cheng said. "It seems to stir up inflammation in the blood vessels. It seems to also cause in some people an overwhelming stress — whether it’s related directly to the infection or situations around the infection — that can also cause a spike in blood pressure."

The reason for the relative rise in young people in particular is unclear, but one theory, Cheng said, is that the virus's impact on the cardiovascular system in some people may be due to an excessive immune system response and that young people are more likely to have stronger immune systems.

 

 

Young people are more likely to die of heart attacks post-COVID, study finds. But why?

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44 minutes ago, Katniss said:

:lol: Oh no, they will more likely say it was myocarditis caused by covid-19 infection and guess what? They would be right! ;) Why? Because doctors diagnosed the cause and explain to MSM how it happens. Here is a nice example of that.

and the possibilities as to why it happens.

 

Young people are more likely to die of heart attacks post-COVID, study finds. But why?

They say, increase in myocarditis brought on by lifestyle according to others here particularly in the British Heart Foundation study.

Oh but it can never be the jab. The one you know with weird side effects as seen in the court documents recently starting to release despite the drug companies doing their level best to suppress that info.

So in the UK it's lifestyle but in the US it's a known side effect which a leading heart charity in the UK didn't mention.

But it can never be the jabs.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, OpenMindedSceptic said:

They say, increase in myocarditis brought on by lifestyle according to others here particularly in the British Heart Foundation study.

 

What? :lol: Who said that? Do you know what myocarditis is? It's inflammation of the heart muscles usually brought on by viral infections, like covid-19. And children can on rare occasions have myocarditis. So no, it's not really due to lifestyle. You are thinking of heart disease, which is sometimes brought on by a patient's lifestyle.

Quote

 

Oh but it can never be the jab. The one you know with weird side effects as seen in the court documents recently starting to release despite the drug companies doing their level best to suppress that info.

So in the UK it's lifestyle but in the US it's a known side effect which a leading heart charity in the UK didn't mention.

But it can never be the jabs.

 

I don't think you know that covid-19 is one virus that can affect the vascular system, meaning the heart and arteries, as well as the respiratory system.

P.S. Oh and the digestive system as well. ;)

Edited by Katniss
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There is such a thing as herpes virus-induced myocarditis. What if covid-19 triggered a herpes virus, causing myocarditis? Were all those myocarditis deaths attributed to covid-19 checked for herpes virus-induced myocarditis?

 

The same for the blood clots:

Quote

 

What if the mRNA injection also causes both myocarditis and blood clots?

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Yeah can't be the jabs! 

The jabs companies that scrapped the double blind testing, desperately tried to suppress information in a recent court case, rushed to market against any sensible person's advice while people warned that the death toll long term could be even bigger than covid... 

Yet, here we are.

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On 6/7/2024 at 5:00 PM, ouija ouija said:

Remember, it's only a short while ago that mention of, never mind discussion about, the connection between the covid vaccine and excess deaths was immediately shut down whenever it popped up. The media has avoided the subject like the plague. But suddenly it's headline news and 'experts call for more research into side effects and possible links to mortality rates'. Good!

"Excess mortality has remained high in the Western World for three consecutive years, despite the implementation of containment measures and COVID-19 vaccines. This raises serious concerns. Government leaders and policymakers need to thoroughly investigate underlying causes of persistent excess mortality."

https://bmjpublichealth.bmj.com/content/2/1/e000282

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/06/04/covid-vaccines-may-have-helped-fuel-rise-in-excess-deaths/

The following video is just 15mns long.

 

So a BMJ article says excess deaths are high despite vaccination programmes.

Which the Telegraph takes to mean excess deaths are high maybe it's linked to vaccination programmes.

And Neil Nutjob Oliver takes to mean excess deaths are high because of the vaccination programmes.

I swear if you lot could read, you'd be dangerous.

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19 minutes ago, Setton said:

So a BMJ article says excess deaths are high despite vaccination programmes.

Which the Telegraph takes to mean excess deaths are high maybe it's linked to vaccination programmes.

And Neil Nutjob Oliver takes to mean excess deaths are high because of the vaccination programmes.

I swear if you lot could read, you'd be dangerous.

It's not just about reading though, is it? It's about how each individual interprets what they read. If you had read the links carefully you would have learned that what everyone is pushing for is proper, solid, truthful analysis of the excess death figures.

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