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Unfounded!! Imhotep didn't say that! 

Just because a Porche is built for your ego, doesn't mean it's not also a useful tool. 

Of course I can prove nothing, but all below is what I do believe to be true. 

The Library of Alexandria must have been similar in many ways to many great stone-built libraries around the world. Libraries are impressive for their passive engineering, because they are built to preserve paper in all weather conditions. It's not enough to simply have a roof and walls for the paper, because humidity can still cause mold and rot. A library is built to keep the paper temperature controlled, so that it can stay dry. Rapid changes in temperature cause condensation, which can cause mold and decay on the paper. In order to keep the paper safe from the elements, a library must be brilliantly designed to ensure stable and smooth airflow, gradual temperature changes in all conditions, and of course to do so even if the rooms are filled with bodies. Tall ceilings, stone walls and roof, smooth surfaces, and specific shaping of the building such as pillars and pointed metal tipped rooftops all contribute to the desired result of paper preservation. Just as the catacombs were built to keep the dead from quickly rotting and creating stench and disease, so too the libraries were built with airflow engineering in mind. 

The ancient egyptian pyramids are no different. Although they are not built in urban centers in the same way as castles, cathedrals, or government buildings are, they are still centered on an area that would be densely populated for periods of the year. Specifically, they were built as the centerpieces of inundation camps. During inundation, egyptians would pack up their belongings, load up their animals and food stores, and move everything that would otherwise be destroyed or damaged by a flood out of the areas surrounding the nile, and to the inundation camps. This would surely include paper, fabrics, tools, carts, dogs cats, maybe even cattle, and lots of food, in some cases perhaps even large portions of the harvest. The pyramids were not simply a big triangle rock, much as today's parks are built to help ventilate urban areas of pollution, the pyramids were surrounded by large gardens filled with statues to prevent fog, pools to provide sources of humidity, and stone footpaths so that people moving through the grounds would not create mud. The pyramids were very tall relative to their immediate surroundings, and would prevent the formation of boundary layers that might otherwise occur in large flat areas each day. (for example, how dust devils form in flat areas of the desert). Stagnant air trapped by boundary layers would quickly fill with the smell of human and animal waste, as well as trap humidity that might be absorbed by grains and paper and cloth, resulting in loss of food stores, general discomfort, or even the spread of disease. Humans and animals did not have sophisticated toilets and used engineered pits as toilets, because the smell does not easily escape them, however stagant air would still result in the smell permeating the surroundings. By having a large pyramid, gentle gradual airflow would continuously move across the inundation camp, as the pyramid would generate a rising column of air by catching early sunlight, puncturing the boundary layers and allowing cool air to flow down its sides and across the gardens towards the camp. Throughout the night, the smell of the people and animals would be cleared as the pyramid would be a significant thermal mass that cooled more gradually than the air, so that this rising column of air would continue all day and all night. Without the stable formation of boundary layers around the camp, there would not be so much mildew on the ground, therefore there would be less mud in the roads and on the animals. There would not be fog so often in the morning, and fog can manifest fungal growth which reaches out with it's long invisible fibers to spread disease to open wounds or to those who might already be unhealthy. Fog can also carry disease further than the normal inhospitable dry air of an afternoon. More than the people might be vulnerable to disease during the rainy season, the animals too would be at risk, so it would be very important to protect them from such elements, and a great pyramid would do so, when the normal barns and other buildings are not available to do so. 

 

Therefore the pyramids are exactly as people say. They are power plants. They are designed to capture the energy of the sun , and convert it into cleanliness, health, and preservation of materials. Dirt paths are walkable for longer out of the day when they are dry , and camps are notorious for mud when so many people and animals arrive at once. The pyramids were not simply an expression of ego, but instead the expression of ego was applied in celebration of the magnificent and brilliant engineering marvels that they were. The pharaohs were not celebrated as fools who were simply gods, but instead were hailed as heros of the people, who were able to use their resources to build such great infrastructure that would ensure the safety of its people, the preservation of their harvests and livestock, and the preservation of the lifeblood of any empire, the paper that tracked everything, taught everything, and yet was so fragile to the elements. Without the pyramids, the inundation camps could never have been what they were, for people would have suffered constantly from rot, mud, and disease. 

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What was done with the ‘power’ that was created?

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, Unusual Tournament said:

What was done with the ‘power’ that was created?

the "power" was just the motion of air. So the sun shines on the rock, the rock gets warm, the rock makes the air warm, but because the rock is slanted up, the air rises instead of just being caught beneath a boundary layer the way it would if the rock were perfectly horizontal. The "power" was just some convection. 

heat rising surfaces.png

monolith 1.png

monolith 2.png

Edited by tsmspace
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5 hours ago, tsmspace said:

Unfounded!! Imhotep didn't say that! 

Just because a Porche is built for your ego, doesn't mean it's not also a useful tool. 

Of course I can prove nothing, but all below is what I do believe to be true. 

The Library of Alexandria must have been similar in many ways to many great stone-built libraries around the world. Libraries are impressive for their passive engineering, because they are built to preserve paper in all weather conditions. It's not enough to simply have a roof and walls for the paper, because humidity can still cause mold and rot. A library is built to keep the paper temperature controlled, so that it can stay dry. Rapid changes in temperature cause condensation, which can cause mold and decay on the paper. In order to keep the paper safe from the elements, a library must be brilliantly designed to ensure stable and smooth airflow, gradual temperature changes in all conditions, and of course to do so even if the rooms are filled with bodies. Tall ceilings, stone walls and roof, smooth surfaces, and specific shaping of the building such as pillars and pointed metal tipped rooftops all contribute to the desired result of paper preservation. Just as the catacombs were built to keep the dead from quickly rotting and creating stench and disease, so too the libraries were built with airflow engineering in mind. 

The ancient egyptian pyramids are no different. Although they are not built in urban centers in the same way as castles, cathedrals, or government buildings are, they are still centered on an area that would be densely populated for periods of the year. Specifically, they were built as the centerpieces of inundation camps. During inundation, egyptians would pack up their belongings, load up their animals and food stores, and move everything that would otherwise be destroyed or damaged by a flood out of the areas surrounding the nile, and to the inundation camps. This would surely include paper, fabrics, tools, carts, dogs cats, maybe even cattle, and lots of food, in some cases perhaps even large portions of the harvest. The pyramids were not simply a big triangle rock, much as today's parks are built to help ventilate urban areas of pollution, the pyramids were surrounded by large gardens filled with statues to prevent fog, pools to provide sources of humidity, and stone footpaths so that people moving through the grounds would not create mud. The pyramids were very tall relative to their immediate surroundings, and would prevent the formation of boundary layers that might otherwise occur in large flat areas each day. (for example, how dust devils form in flat areas of the desert). Stagnant air trapped by boundary layers would quickly fill with the smell of human and animal waste, as well as trap humidity that might be absorbed by grains and paper and cloth, resulting in loss of food stores, general discomfort, or even the spread of disease. Humans and animals did not have sophisticated toilets and used engineered pits as toilets, because the smell does not easily escape them, however stagant air would still result in the smell permeating the surroundings. By having a large pyramid, gentle gradual airflow would continuously move across the inundation camp, as the pyramid would generate a rising column of air by catching early sunlight, puncturing the boundary layers and allowing cool air to flow down its sides and across the gardens towards the camp. Throughout the night, the smell of the people and animals would be cleared as the pyramid would be a significant thermal mass that cooled more gradually than the air, so that this rising column of air would continue all day and all night. Without the stable formation of boundary layers around the camp, there would not be so much mildew on the ground, therefore there would be less mud in the roads and on the animals. There would not be fog so often in the morning, and fog can manifest fungal growth which reaches out with it's long invisible fibers to spread disease to open wounds or to those who might already be unhealthy. Fog can also carry disease further than the normal inhospitable dry air of an afternoon. More than the people might be vulnerable to disease during the rainy season, the animals too would be at risk, so it would be very important to protect them from such elements, and a great pyramid would do so, when the normal barns and other buildings are not available to do so. 

 

Therefore the pyramids are exactly as people say. They are power plants. They are designed to capture the energy of the sun , and convert it into cleanliness, health, and preservation of materials. Dirt paths are walkable for longer out of the day when they are dry , and camps are notorious for mud when so many people and animals arrive at once. The pyramids were not simply an expression of ego, but instead the expression of ego was applied in celebration of the magnificent and brilliant engineering marvels that they were. The pharaohs were not celebrated as fools who were simply gods, but instead were hailed as heros of the people, who were able to use their resources to build such great infrastructure that would ensure the safety of its people, the preservation of their harvests and livestock, and the preservation of the lifeblood of any empire, the paper that tracked everything, taught everything, and yet was so fragile to the elements. Without the pyramids, the inundation camps could never have been what they were, for people would have suffered constantly from rot, mud, and disease. 

Made me think of this:

 

Yazd is said to have the most wind catchers in the world, though they may have originated in ancient Egypt. In Yazd, the wind catcher soon proved indispensable, making this part of the hot and arid Iranian Plateau livable.

Using the wind to cool buildings has a history stretching back almost as long as people have lived in hot desert environments. Some of the earliest wind-catching technology comes from Egypt 3,300 years ago, according to researchers Chris Soelberg and Julie Rich of Weber State University in Utah. Here, buildings had thick walls, few windows facing the Sun, openings to take in air on the side of prevailing winds and an exit vent on the other side – known in Arabic as malqaf architecture. Though some argue that the birthplace of the wind catcher was Iran itself.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20210810-the-ancient-persian-way-to-keep-cool

 

url(143).jpg

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Welcome to UM, tsmspace :st

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Made me think of this:

 

Yazd is said to have the most wind catchers in the world, though they may have originated in ancient Egypt. In Yazd, the wind catcher soon proved indispensable, making this part of the hot and arid Iranian Plateau livable.

Using the wind to cool buildings has a history stretching back almost as long as people have lived in hot desert environments. Some of the earliest wind-catching technology comes from Egypt 3,300 years ago, according to researchers Chris Soelberg and Julie Rich of Weber State University in Utah. Here, buildings had thick walls, few windows facing the Sun, openings to take in air on the side of prevailing winds and an exit vent on the other side – known in Arabic as malqaf architecture. Though some argue that the birthplace of the wind catcher was Iran itself.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20210810-the-ancient-persian-way-to-keep-cool

 

url(143).jpg

Yes,, but windcatchers are pretty different though. As far as suggesting advanced airflow understanding and intentional airflow engineering they are a smoking gun, but as for the specific function of the engineering they are pretty different. I would suggest a better case study is a cathedral with catacombs, or an ancient library, both of which are designed for smooth, stable, continuous, gradual, controlled airflow intended to keep materials dry and preserved. 

mastababemastaba.png

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1 hour ago, tsmspace said:

I would suggest a better case study is a cathedral with catacombs, or an ancient library, both of which are designed for smooth, stable, continuous, gradual, controlled airflow intended to keep materials dry and preserved. 

I doubt these cathedrals or ancient libraries were intentionally designed like they were to keep things dry and preserved.

 

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30 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

I doubt these cathedrals or ancient libraries were intentionally designed like they were to keep things dry and preserved.

 

why? we know that food storage techniques were highly advanced, why not paper?

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16 hours ago, tsmspace said:

Unfounded!! Imhotep didn't say that! 

Just because a Porche is built for your ego, doesn't mean it's not also a useful tool. 

Of course I can prove nothing, but all below is what I do believe to be true. 

The Library of Alexandria must have been similar in many ways to many great stone-built libraries around the world. Libraries are impressive for their passive engineering, because they are built to preserve paper in all weather conditions. It's not enough to simply have a roof and walls for the paper, because humidity can still cause mold and rot. A library is built to keep the paper temperature controlled, so that it can stay dry. Rapid changes in temperature cause condensation, which can cause mold and decay on the paper. In order to keep the paper safe from the elements, a library must be brilliantly designed to ensure stable and smooth airflow, gradual temperature changes in all conditions, and of course to do so even if the rooms are filled with bodies. Tall ceilings, stone walls and roof, smooth surfaces, and specific shaping of the building such as pillars and pointed metal tipped rooftops all contribute to the desired result of paper preservation. Just as the catacombs were built to keep the dead from quickly rotting and creating stench and disease, so too the libraries were built with airflow engineering in mind. 

Libraries of ancient times are not the libraries of today.  It would be more accurate to think of them as small-to-medium collections of scrolls -- in Egypt, these were housed in smaller rooms or small buildings in temples called "per ahkh" (house of life.)  Tablets and scrolls were usually kept in cases or baskets or occasionally on shelves.  No metal roofs -- most structures were made of mud brick.  There wasn't much worry about air flow in a single large room. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_libraries

You do get larger libraries, but they're generally around the same age as the Library of Alexandria (after 500 BC.)  In Egypt, documents stayed at temples -- the Library was the first time that collections were generally available to any reader.

Quote

The ancient egyptian pyramids are no different. Although they are not built in urban centers in the same way as castles, cathedrals, or government buildings are, they are still centered on an area that would be densely populated for periods of the year. Specifically, they were built as the centerpieces of inundation camps. During inundation, egyptians would pack up their belongings, load up their animals and food stores, and move everything that would otherwise be destroyed or damaged by a flood out of the areas surrounding the nile, and to the inundation camps. 

There was no such thing as an "inundation camp" -- they built their houses (and villages) above the line of the annual flood.  Their houses were permanent structures and nobody builds a permanent house in an area that gets flooded once a year where floodwaters last a month or more and where you'd have to go back and build (again) your cattle sheds and fix your house and storage silos before you start planting.

If they had done this, they'd start building permanent houses (like "summer homes") in this area and we'd know it from the traces they leave (garbage pits.)

And while moderns are fascinated with the pyramids, they were not that important to the ancients.

Quote

The pyramids were not simply a big triangle rock, much as today's parks are built to help ventilate urban areas of pollution, the pyramids were surrounded by large gardens filled with statues to prevent fog, pools to provide sources of humidity, and stone footpaths so that people moving through the grounds would not create mud. 

Well, we know what was around the pyramids... and there aren't gardens.  Gardens leave a pretty notable footprint (packed organic material; we found that at Hatshepsut's temple, hundreds of miles away from Giza, where she records that she planted trees for shade.  Archaeologists marked the location of each tree that was planted; I saw that when we visited her temple (the area needed trees... it's hot, flat, and very rocky.)

Also, most of the plateau area is covered with graves (mastabas.)  Not many people enjoy sleeping in graveyards.

And if you check around, you will find that you don't get a lot of fog in Egypt (less than 30 days per year, and that's in the delta region which is not where the pyramids are.)

And your idea of the air flow around the pyramids... is rather contradicted by the experience of people who have worked there, I believe.  All of the plateau acts as a surface that heats the air and sends it upward; the pyramids have little impact on the motion.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, tsmspace said:

why? we know that food storage techniques were highly advanced, why not paper?

Seeing as i got pounced on by the experts on um for simply suggesting some of the labour intensive work was done by slave or cheep labour.

Good luck @tsmspaceconvincing them.

There are a few people here with years of experience concerning pyramids archaeology etc.

I was an uneducated guy with an opinion and no evidence going against educated people with evidence.

Even though i still think I'm right,about my opinion,you need to have a bit of evidence to change the views of people with years of hands on experience.

So if you have good evidence,present it and prepare to be debated by experts in the field ,and don't take any criticism personally.

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On 6/16/2024 at 3:29 PM, diddyman68 said:

Seeing as i got pounced on by the experts on um for simply suggesting some of the labour intensive work was done by slave or cheep labour.

Not sure who these "experts" were. They most certainly used slave labor

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3 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

Not sure who these "experts" were. They most certainly used slave labor

Well the egyptians used slaves but tbf masonry heritage is that masonry is a secret. So ,, while it's true that the egyptians used a lot of slaves, the pyramids have been suggested to have been built by people who were not slaves, and there is some fair arguments to be had here. Surely slaves were around for all work that was done and were helpers in every case, but on the other hand, "cool" jobs would not be left to slaves, even today people are leaving bodies sleeping with the fishes to be the ones who get certain positions. Masonry, and building something as grand as the pyramids, something revered by all, is something that would have a line of people wishing it could be them to do it, not the other way around. Maybe a lot of the dragging was done using slaves, or even then maybe not, because of all the labor that's demeaning, the one that makes you enormous is the one that people want to be the one to do. Masons get huge hands, rock hard bodies, and learn all kinds of really cool skills that others simply cannot do. This is not the domain of slavery. Making something that will be revered by all and in honor of the king will give someone high status, and also would not be something that slaves would ever be allowed to take credit for. A slave might hold your tools, and bring you the rope, but only someone who could kill to protect it would be allowed to use the tools, and do the pull on the rope that makes the back fashionable to the women. If it's fun, slaves are prohibited, pretty much universally. 

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9 hours ago, tsmspace said:

Well the egyptians used slaves but tbf masonry heritage is that masonry is a secret. So ,, while it's true that the egyptians used a lot of slaves, the pyramids have been suggested to have been built by people who were not slaves, and there is some fair arguments to be had here. Surely slaves were around for all work that was done and were helpers in every case, but on the other hand, "cool" jobs would not be left to slaves, even today people are leaving bodies sleeping with the fishes to be the ones who get certain positions. Masonry, and building something as grand as the pyramids, something revered by all, is something that would have a line of people wishing it could be them to do it, not the other way around. Maybe a lot of the dragging was done using slaves, or even then maybe not, because of all the labor that's demeaning, the one that makes you enormous is the one that people want to be the one to do. Masons get huge hands, rock hard bodies, and learn all kinds of really cool skills that others simply cannot do. This is not the domain of slavery. Making something that will be revered by all and in honor of the king will give someone high status, and also would not be something that slaves would ever be allowed to take credit for. A slave might hold your tools, and bring you the rope, but only someone who could kill to protect it would be allowed to use the tools, and do the pull on the rope that makes the back fashionable to the women. If it's fun, slaves are prohibited, pretty much universally. 

1452093555-dascham.gif?crop=1xw:0.888888

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1 hour ago, Thanos5150 said:

1452093555-dascham.gif?crop=1xw:0.888888

so are you arguing that masonry wasn't regarded as a high status position in egypt?

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On 6/16/2024 at 11:43 PM, tsmspace said:

why? we know that food storage techniques were highly advanced, why not paper?

Well, cathedrals were not built the way they were to preserve those buried inside.

In fact, I have read that a lot of frankinscense was being used in those cathedrals to counteract the smell from decomposing bodies.

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1 minute ago, Abramelin said:

Well, cathedrals were not built the way they were to preserve those buried inside.

In fact, I have read that a lot of frankinscense was being used in those cathedrals to counteract the smell from decomposing bodies.

yeah but just because they had intent doesn't mean the execution was perfect every time. there are a lot of machines in the world that are built to a sub-standard operation. 

One thing about ye-old back in the day,, there were animals everywhere. Another thing about ye-old back in the day, people would just p*** and **** in the street basically. It would be pretty important to move air throughout the day, or people would all get sick for sure. 

 

if you go stand next to a cathedral in europe, where most of the famous stone cathedrals were built, you will notice some things. Inside, of course, is like a cave. This is not automatic, however, the priests who staff the cathedral open certain windows and doors at certain times of every day and depending on weather conditions. If you are on a sunny day, and next to the cathedral, then first you will feel warm, then cold, then warm, then cold,,, the temperature fluctuates like a pump. This is because first the air is warming in the sunlight, then the  bubble of warming air basically pops through the boundary layer and cold air from higher up flows down around the cathedral. This happens constantly. It moves the air, clearing the smell of unwashed bodies, animal feces in the street, etc. 

Of course there are no sources that I know of that describe this. But it's pretty hard to miss. 

cathedral 5.png

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, tsmspace said:

yeah but just because they had intent doesn't mean the execution was perfect every time. there are a lot of machines in the world that are built to a sub-standard operation. 

One thing about ye-old back in the day,, there were animals everywhere. Another thing about ye-old back in the day, people would just p*** and **** in the street basically. It would be pretty important to move air throughout the day, or people would all get sick for sure. 

 

if you go stand next to a cathedral in europe, where most of the famous stone cathedrals were built, you will notice some things. Inside, of course, is like a cave. This is not automatic, however, the priests who staff the cathedral open certain windows and doors at certain times of every day and depending on weather conditions. If you are on a sunny day, and next to the cathedral, then first you will feel warm, then cold, then warm, then cold,,, the temperature fluctuates like a pump. This is because first the air is warming in the sunlight, then the  bubble of warming air basically pops through the boundary layer and cold air from higher up flows down around the cathedral. This happens constantly. It moves the air, clearing the smell of unwashed bodies, animal feces in the street, etc. 

Of course there are no sources that I know of that describe this. But it's pretty hard to miss. 

cathedral 5.png

But the smell of decomposing bodies was still there, in those cathedrals.

Give me some time, and I will find a source that will tell you that people back then used to burn fragrant herbs to counteract the stink caused by those bodies buried there.

 

And remind me when I don't deliver.

Edited by Abramelin
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53 minutes ago, Tom1200 said:

I don't know what I'm doing. XxX

Here.....

Here's a old fashion easy to use meme....trainn.jpg.eb68a7d05ffe731973ceb404a9cca06c.jpg

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23 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

But the smell of decomposing bodies was still there, in those cathedrals.

Give me some time, and I will find a source that will tell you that people back then used to burn fragrant herbs to counteract the stink caused by those bodies buried there.

 

And remind me when I don't deliver.

I'm sure but there is a difference between a body thats rotting in the mud and one that's rotting up on a rock, and further still from one that's rotting in a cave. 

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24 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

But the smell of decomposing bodies was still there, in those cathedrals.

Give me some time, and I will find a source that will tell you that people back then used to burn fragrant herbs to counteract the stink caused by those bodies buried there.

 

And remind me when I don't deliver.

I don't need a source for that. Priests still spread incense during certain seasons and they have their own recorded history in the church and we all learned (I was raised a catholic) that the reason for the incense was the bodies in the catacombs. They also burned incense for something else though.... B.O. 

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4 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

But the smell of decomposing bodies was still there, in those cathedrals.

Give me some time, and I will find a source that will tell you that people back then used to burn fragrant herbs to counteract the stink caused by those bodies buried there.

 

And remind me when I don't deliver.

It became so bad by the 18th Century in England that nothing could hide the smell and they had to clear out the crypts. By then the graveyards had been completely filled, and some rather gruesome practices carried out to bury more dead, so the smell was not just in the churches but outside as well. Inside would have been a nightmare. The crypts had been completely filled up, coffins jammed in any old way, sideways, upside down, upright and upside down, many had split or rotten away with the decomposing bodies on view. They were eventually all cleared out, but nothing could have hidden the smell, not even all the incense in the world. I beleive worshippers would habitually carry nosegays and such to church to hold against their noses until the service had finished, then they walk home and get a chamber pot emptied on their head from an upstairs window, the "good old days".

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2 minutes ago, tsmspace said:

I don't need a source for that. Priests still spread incense during certain seasons and they have their own recorded history in the church and we all learned (I was raised a catholic) that the reason for the incense was the bodies in the catacombs. They also burned incense for something else though.... B.O. 

There.

But what's B.O. supposed to mean?

At least you agree with me that cathedrals were nòt meant to preserve corpses.

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32 minutes ago, Piney said:

Here.....

Here's a old fashion easy to use meme....trainn.jpg.eb68a7d05ffe731973ceb404a9cca06c.jpg

This thread is not going off topic.

Focus, and you'll know this thread is still ON topic.

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1 minute ago, Abramelin said:

This thread is not going off topic.

Focus, and you'll know this thread is still ON topic.

It's still a train wreck. 

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