US allies try to 'Trump-proof' Nato - but is that even possible?

[Grim Reaper 6]

The Republican's election as president in November "could change everything”, the diplomat said. The fact that Mr Biden has been trying to fend off a political crisis over his frailty has only sharpened the sense that a second Trump term could bring far-reaching changes to an alliance forged in the ashes of the World War Two and still reliant on hard US military power to deter adversaries..

Four members of visiting delegations, who asked to remain anonymous, told the BBC their concern was not necessarily that a Trump administration would withdraw entirely from Nato, as he has threatened before. Rather it is a fear that the US commitment to the alliance's core principle of collective security - "all for one and one for all", meaning any ally under attack can expect defence from the others - could wane..

https://www-bbc-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3gr90jnxjvo.amp?amp_js_v=0.1&amp_gsa=1#webview=1&cap=swipe

[Guyver]

God I wish you would stop making anti-Trump threads.  It’s pretty clear….you hate Trump.  Your opinion has been noted a thousand times.  For effs sake.

[Grim Reaper 6]

48 minutes ago, Guyver said:

God I wish you would stop making anti-Trump threads.  It’s pretty clear….you hate Trump.  Your opinion has been noted a thousand times.  For effs sake.

No, I will not stop, however you could certainly stop complaining about them, stop posting in them, and pay no attention to them. Your a glutton for punishment if it bothers that much like I said above don’t post in them, pay them no attention if you can!

Edited July 13 by Grim Reaper 6

[+and-then]

33 minutes ago, Guyver said:

God I wish you would stop making anti-Trump threads.  It’s pretty clear….you hate Trump.  Your opinion has been noted a thousand times.  For effs sake.

IMHO, it's an obsessive-compulsive issue at this point.  That and an obvious attempt to troll.  As for the thread's premise, they can, maybe, set aside continued funding that would be untouchable - maybe, I'm not sure - but the real issue is whether they could work around the POTUS to enact article V without the approval of a sitting Commander-in-Chief.  THAT ONE is a resounding no.  Unfortunately for the "Sisters of the Perpetually Weak-kneed", they've bought into their own fear-mongering and lies about what he DID with regard to NATO versus what their media convinced them he "meant". 

Those of us who actually listened to the guy rather than looking for any word or phrase they could parse to condemn him, easily understood that he was using a business negotiating technique to make NATO nations who had become long-term deadbeats, worry and then cough-up more of the 2% they had AGREED TO many years ago but rarely ever met.  Mind you, the media tried to make it sound like he was shaking them down to put $ in our treasury or summat when everyone who was conscious, understood the funding goal was for THEIR OWN MILITARY.

In short, Congress has the ultimate power to DECLARE WAR, and then fund it, but it is the president that manages that war.  That's why he's called the Commander-in-Chief.  If Putin attacked a NATO nation like Poland or Finland, Trump would not simply ignore the situation for political reasons.  If Vladimir Vladimirovich stepped over a line that red, WWIII would be a fait accompli.  God help us all.

 

Edited July 13 by and-then

[Grim Reaper 6]

54 minutes ago, and-then said:

IMHO, it's an obsessive-compulsive issue at this point.  That and an obvious attempt to troll.

I am not obsessed and I am certainly not compulsive and it’s impossible to troll by starting a thread,  I have not violated the forum rules at all. 

54 minutes ago, and-then said:

 

As for the thread's premise, they can, maybe, set aside continued funding that would be untouchable - maybe, I'm not sure - but the real issue is whether they could work around the POTUS to enact article V without the approval of a sitting Commander-in-Chief.  THAT ONE is a resounding no.  Unfortunately for the "Sisters of the Perpetually Weak-kneed", they've bought into their own fear-mongering and lies about what he DID with regard to NATO versus what their media convinced them he "meant". 

Those of us who actually listened to the guy rather than looking for any word or phrase they could parse to condemn him, easily understood that he was using a business negotiating technique to make NATO nations who had become long-term deadbeats, worry and then cough-up more of the 2% they had AGREED TO many years ago but rarely ever met.  Mind you, the media tried to make it sound like he was shaking them down to put $ in our treasury or summat when everyone who was conscious, understood the funding goal was for THEIR OWN MILITARY.

In short, Congress has the ultimate power to DECLARE WAR, and then fund it, but it is the president that manages that war.  That's why he's called the Commander-in-Chief.  If Putin attacked a NATO nation like Poland or Finland, Trump would not simply ignore the situation for political reasons.  If Vladimir Vladimirovich stepped over a line that red, WWIII would be a fait accompli.  God help us all.

 

 

[Black Red Devil]

2 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

The Republican's election as president in November "could change everything”, the diplomat said. The fact that Mr Biden has been trying to fend off a political crisis over his frailty has only sharpened the sense that a second Trump term could bring far-reaching changes to an alliance forged in the ashes of the World War Two and still reliant on hard US military power to deter adversaries..

Four members of visiting delegations, who asked to remain anonymous, told the BBC their concern was not necessarily that a Trump administration would withdraw entirely from Nato, as he has threatened before. Rather it is a fear that the US commitment to the alliance's core principle of collective security - "all for one and one for all", meaning any ally under attack can expect defence from the others - could wane..

https://www-bbc-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3gr90jnxjvo.amp?amp_js_v=0.1&amp_gsa=1#webview=1&cap=swipe

Trump said it during his first term. link  He did say recently if the other members "cough up" then he's committed in staying, if he's President of course.  OK, there are no NATO bases in the US and having permanent US troops in NATO bases around the world, especially in Europe, eases US military spending. That's a fact.  How about everyone coughs up and pays their fair share so when there is a problem around the world, countries have to travel thousands of miles to get to destination.  One of the reasons the US has troops and presence is to not only save on travelling, but it's more timely and their presence, because of the US' military power, offers not only protection for other countries but offers economical alliances and strategic power for the US.

There is either two ways Trump doesn't understand the benefits for the US in this, he's a lapdog of NATO's enemies, Russia and China, or he's just simply stupid.

[Grim Reaper 6]

19 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

Trump said it during his first term. link  He did say recently if the other members "cough up" then he's committed in staying, if he's President of course.  OK, there are no NATO bases in the US and having permanent US troops in NATO bases around the world, especially in Europe, eases US military spending. That's a fact.  How about everyone coughs up and pays their fair share so when there is a problem around the world, countries have to travel thousands of miles to get to destination.  One of the reasons the US has troops and presence is to not only save on travelling, but it's more timely and their presence, because of the US' military power, offers not only protection for other countries but offers economical alliances and strategic power for the US.

There is either two ways Trump doesn't understand the benefits for the US in this, he's a lapdog of NATO's enemies, Russia and China, or he's just simply stupid.

He is Vladimir Putin's personal lapdog, Trump worships the ground the walks upon. If Trump is reelected wait and see fast he reduces sanctions on Russia, and how fast he will attempt to force a cease fire on the Ukraine and give Russia anything they ask for. Once he is done there, he will try to dismantle NATO also for Russia Putin is relying on it. Trump is a traitor to the US Government and the American people.

JIMHO

[Oniomancer]

Politics on a political board? Quick, where's Harte's Vincent Price gif?

[+and-then]

3 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

 I have not violated the forum rules at all.

I didn't accuse you of anything, Grim.  I gave MY opinion of your habit of throwing nearly every example of anti-Trump propaganda MSN tosses out, for reasons of your own.  I also assume you are genuinely freaked out that despite everything the Left has attempted, as a way to take this man down, it is beginning to seem quite likely that he could win again.  I'm willing to admit that I'm a bit freaked out at what I think they might be capable of doing if he does win again.  I don't think America can survive much more of this media-induced tribalism.

[+and-then]

1 hour ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

He is Vladimir Putin's personal lapdog, Trump worships the ground the walks upon. If Trump is reelected wait and see fast he reduces sanctions on Russia, and how fast he will attempt to force a cease fire on the Ukraine and give Russia anything they ask for. Once he is done there, he will try to dismantle NATO also for Russia Putin is relying on it. Trump is a traitor to the US Government and the American people.

JIMHO

Yet the same accusations were made over and over during his tenure in office, and these accusations were throughly investigated by an adversarial Democrat-controlled House and no proof was ever offered.  In short, you are perfectly free to believe anything you want but you and no one else is free to demand others accept that opinion as the truth.  Trump did not draw down any NATO forces.  His words DID have the effect of stiffening some EU spines and causing them to spend more on their own defense - which was his goal.  

As for being Putin's "lap dog", he must have been a dog Trump hated:

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/on-the-record-the-u-s-administrations-actions-on-russia/

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/trump-imposes-major-sanctions-russian-oligarchs-officials-companies-n863271

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-actions-against-russia-sanctions-2018-3

https://www.cnas.org/publications/reports/sanctions-by-the-numbers-russia

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/1/21/us-santions-under-trump-all-you-need-to-know

There are more examples but if these aren't sufficient to contest your opinions, no amount will ever be sufficient.  This is why I call your attitude a bit irrational and propaganda-driven.  It is what it is.  There is no personal insult intended.  I'm demonstrating my opinions and why I hold them.

 

[+and-then]

2 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

There is either two ways Trump doesn't understand the benefits for the US in this, he's a lapdog of NATO's enemies, Russia and China, or he's just simply stupid.

I don't think he's ignorant of the benefits of NATO membership.  However, your logic would tend to make the case that the US lietrally owes it to the rest of the world to pay for THEIR self defense costs.  The rules all these nations agreed to were to spend 2% of their budget annually to strenghten their own defenses.  Not send a check to Trump or DC... to defend their own nations and for decades now, they have been refusing to keep their word.  His rhetoric shook them up and they began paying up to take care of more of their own burden to defend their citizens.

Your other point seems to be that since we are a superpower, we MUST pay for their defenses so they are actually doing us a solid by allowing us to keep troops stationed on their soil - along with all the economic benefits our spending generates for them.  That logic is bent, man.

[Grim Reaper 6]

9 minutes ago, and-then said:

I didn't accuse you of anything, Grim.  I gave MY opinion of your habit of throwing nearly every example of anti-Trump propaganda MSN tosses out, for reasons of your own.

You said I was trolling and nothing can be farther from the truth. This thread didn't come from MSN, in fact I no longer use MSN as a source. Everything I post from now on comes straight from the original source thanks you.

9 minutes ago, and-then said:

  I also assume you are genuinely freaked out that despite everything the Left has attempted, as a way to take this man down, it is beginning to seem quite likely that he could win again.

I am certainly not freaked out; I have figured he had an above average chance of winning since the middle of 2022. Thats when Bidens Alzheimer's or Dementia started to really show, and now short of a miracle Trump will mostly likely win. But even then, I will not stop dropping dimes upon him. In the end my concern is for all the American people, living here in Korea I will be forced to watch the damage he will from a distance

9 minutes ago, and-then said:

  I'm willing to admit that I'm a bit freaked out at what I think they might be capable of doing if he does win again.  I don't think America can survive much more of this media-induced tribalism.

On this point we certainly agree the tribalism is out of control, in fact I have not seen anything like this in my entire life to be honest. At, this point I wish Biden would fold as soon as possible, the old man is only prolonging his demise.

Thanks for your comments! 

[Grim Reaper 6]

26 minutes ago, and-then said:

Yet the same accusations were made over and over during his tenure in office, and these accusations were throughly investigated by an adversarial Democrat-controlled House and no proof was ever offered.  In short, you are perfectly free to believe anything you want but you and no one else is free to demand others accept that opinion as the truth.

I agree that occur, but I believe more occurred during those investigations than will ever be released to the public. I don't demand anything of other, I speak my mind and if others agree with me that is fine if not oh well, but time will tell. Can even imagine the optic if a sitting President of the United States was colluding with a communist power at the expense of his own country, that would destroy the United States in the eyes of world, and it would destroy any trust the American people still have in their government.

26 minutes ago, and-then said:

 

  Trump did not draw down any NATO forces.  His words DID have the effect of stiffening some EU spines and causing them to spend more on their own defense - which was his goal.  

As for being Putin's "lap dog", he must have been a dog Trump hated:

Thanks for your opinion, and your partly correct, but obviously he did destroy the faith our allies once had in the United States and all the comments they are making today proves it to be true!

26 minutes ago, and-then said:

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/on-the-record-the-u-s-administrations-actions-on-russia/

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/trump-imposes-major-sanctions-russian-oligarchs-officials-companies-n863271

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-actions-against-russia-sanctions-2018-3

https://www.cnas.org/publications/reports/sanctions-by-the-numbers-russia

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/1/21/us-santions-under-trump-all-you-need-to-know

There are more examples but if these aren't sufficient to contest your opinions, no amount will ever be sufficient.  This is why I call your attitude a bit irrational and propaganda-driven.  It is what it is.  There is no personal insult intended.  I'm demonstrating my opinions and why I hold them.

I trust our military leadership not the media and our military doesn't trust Trump. If he is re-elected, he will have push back from the military like no President ever has,

Peace

26 minutes ago, and-then said:

 

 

[+and-then]

10 minutes ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

On this point we certainly agree the tribalism is out of control, in fact I have not seen anything like this in my entire life to be honest.

I wish we had leadership in both parties that were willing to demand a summit conference within both House and Senate to come up with compromises to restore faith in our electoral process.  I do not believe this nation is going to survive if we cannot restore that confidence.  For over two centuries we managed to compromise and in the past it went without question that people had to identify themselves in order to vote.  Absentee ballots were quite unusual and required meeting specific criteria.  The only time I ever used one was for an election in Alabama that was to be held while I was at Ft Jackson, in Basic.  I had to prove that with paperwork.

These days, especially in 2020, millions of mail-in ballots were used with no record of being requested by anyone or being signed at all.  That is the truth.  It is factual and if it happens again, a lot of citizens are going to be dropping out of an obviously corrupt system and they're going to start making new plans to safeguard their future liberty.  Things like civil disobedience on a mass scale and potentially ` movements forming and expanding.  People talk a lot about "civil war" but in reality, it wouldn't be necessary at all.  If millions of Americans began simply refusing to obey the laws coming out of DC on the grounds that they are coming from an illegitimate government, then the laws themselves are illegitimate.  What response would DC have?  Open massive prison camps in the states?  

[Grim Reaper 6]

24 minutes ago, and-then said:

I don't think he's ignorant of the benefits of NATO membership.  However, your logic would tend to make the case that the US lietrally owes it to the rest of the world to pay for THEIR self defense costs.  The rules all these nations agreed to were to spend 2% of their budget annually to strenghten their own defenses.  Not send a check to Trump or DC... to defend their own nations and for decades now, they have been refusing to keep their word.  His rhetoric shook them up and they began paying up to take care of more of their own burden to defend their citizens.

That is correct, but it goes beyond that, his actions across the board made our allies nervous and that has only become worse since he lost the election in 2020. He burned a lot of bridges, some will never be repaired and others will not be repaired in our lifetime,

24 minutes ago, and-then said:

Your other point seems to be that since we are a superpower, we MUST pay for their defenses so they are actually doing us a solid by allowing us to keep troops stationed on their soil - along with all the economic benefits our spending generates for them.  That logic is bent, man.

That's not my point at all please don't put words in my mouth, my point is that he damaged the NATO alliance and little of damage was the result of them not paying 2%. Most of the damage was the fact that many member states have seen the way he courted Putin and did more damage than anything else.

 

[+and-then]

1 hour ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

That's not my point at all please don't put words in my mouth

Uh... I was responding to Black Red Devil, sorry for the confusion.

[Grim Reaper 6]

1 hour ago, and-then said:

I wish we had leadership in both parties that were willing to demand a summit conference within both House and Senate to come up with compromises to restore faith in our electoral process.  I do not believe this nation is going to survive if we cannot restore that confidence.  For over two centuries we managed to compromise and in the past it went without question that people had to identify themselves in order to vote.

It's great to hear your perspective! Mail ballots are indeed crucial for many people, including the elderly and those who are hospitalized. They provide an essential way for everyone to participate in the democratic process, regardless of their physical ability to get to a polling place. Ensuring that all citizens have access to voting is so important.

1 hour ago, and-then said:

 Absentee ballots were quite unusual and required meeting specific criteria.  The only time I ever used one was for an election in Alabama that was to be held while I was at Ft Jackson, in Basic.  I had to prove that with paperwork.

Absentee ballots are indeed an important part of the voting process. They provide a way for people who can't make it to the polls on Election Day—due to reasons like illness, travel, or other commitments—to still have their voices heard. It's great to see you recognize their importance.

1 hour ago, and-then said:

These days, especially in 2020, millions of mail-in ballots were used with no record of being requested by anyone or being signed at all.  That is the truth.  It is factual and if it happens again, a lot of citizens are going to be dropping out of an obviously corrupt system and they're going to start making new plans to safeguard their future liberty.

I understand that we have different views on mail-in ballots, and it's important to respect each other's opinions. It's good to see that you support people making plans to safeguard their future, as long as it remains peaceful. Violence is never the answer, and it's crucial to address disagreements through dialogue and understanding rather than aggression. Let's hope for a future where everyone can express their views safely and respectfully.

1 hour ago, and-then said:

Things like civil disobedience on a mass scale and potentially ` movements forming and expanding.  People talk a lot about "civil war" but in reality, it wouldn't be necessary at all.  If millions of Americans began simply refusing to obey the laws coming out of DC on the grounds that they are coming from an illegitimate government, then the laws themselves are illegitimate.  What response would DC have?  Open massive prison camps in the states?  

It sounds like you're really concerned about the potential for drastic measures in extreme situations. Declaring martial law and deploying the military are indeed significant actions that can have profound impacts on a country. It's understandable to feel anxious about such possibilities.

[Grim Reaper 6]

5 minutes ago, and-then said:

Uh... I was responding to Black Red Devil, sorry for the confusion.

No problem, water under the bridge man!!!

[Black Red Devil]

2 hours ago, and-then said:

I don't think he's ignorant of the benefits of NATO membership.  However, your logic would tend to make the case that the US lietrally owes it to the rest of the world to pay for THEIR self defense costs.  The rules all these nations agreed to were to spend 2% of their budget annually to strenghten their own defenses.  Not send a check to Trump or DC... to defend their own nations and for decades now, they have been refusing to keep their word.  His rhetoric shook them up and they began paying up to take care of more of their own burden to defend their citizens.

Your other point seems to be that since we are a superpower, we MUST pay for their defenses so they are actually doing us a solid by allowing us to keep troops stationed on their soil - along with all the economic benefits our spending generates for them.  That logic is bent, man.

No, my point was there's a mutual benefit in NATO IMO. The reason I mentioned the pros and cons for the US quite simply because Trump in his previous stint threatened to leave.  There's no skin off my nose because my country isn't part of NATO but, from a distance, Australia and NATO share the same democratic ideals and we're allies. You might be surprised to know but I agree, NATO members should be investing more in their Defense Budgets.  I believe Australia should too and be more self reliant.

But my problem is there are Diplomats and then there's Trump.  He makes knee jerk reaction decisions and it's well known he doesn't take much notice from his advisors.  He wants to run the Presidency as if he's running his business.  Can't do that!  Threatening small time operators is one thing, threatening to leave the only alliance that has stopped the world from falling to the Soviet Union, from expansionistic countries like Russia and China taking over neighbours and most importantly, more World Wars, is naive and stupid and whether he meant it or not, when you're sitting in the chair of the most powerful military country in the world, a country with the most significant influence on what happens worldwide, you've got to use diplomacy, not mafia style methods.

But it's not all about US interests or rather, what decisions made by other countries may have.  As I said, you don't become a world superpower unless you have influences globally through networking, both economically and militarily.  The world needs America but America needs allies to stay at the top.  What happens if NATO members decide to withdraw from NATO?  What happens if Turkiye becomes an ally of Russia.  What happens with the Bosphorus? What happens if Italy withdraws, becomes all cosy with China.  What happens to America's 6th fleet in the mediterranean and the Chinese move in?  Trump needs to shut his mouth more, listen to his advisors and stick and rely on America's friends, not get all smoochie with the worlds democratic enemies such as Kim and Putin.