Meditation can be harmful – and can even make mental health problems worse

[XenoFish]

8 hours ago, joc said:

I don't buy any of that mumbo jumbo about different brain waves, especially the part that says you can control them.  And mostly, I don't buy any of it because of the author, probably a really nice person but she is a marketing guru, not an expert on brain waves.  She is very good at marketing a story line.  That's her specialty and you can see it in that piece.  Slick Marketing sells stuff.  That is true.  And, that's why I don't buy it.  How can anyone say that you can control a certain brain wave by doing a certain thing?  We know how to control certain parts of our brain, things to do with emotional responses etc...but to narrow it down to ...do this to improve your Gamma Wave activity is kind of nonsensical I think.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/brain-waves

https://nhahealth.com/brainwaves-the-language/

Do I need to create a wall of links for this? 

Edited July 24 by XenoFish

[+Sherapy]

10 hours ago, joc said:

I don't buy any of that mumbo jumbo about different brain waves, especially the part that says you can control them.  And mostly, I don't buy any of it because of the author, probably a really nice person but she is a marketing guru, not an expert on brain waves.  She is very good at marketing a story line.  That's her specialty and you can see it in that piece.  Slick Marketing sells stuff.  That is true.  And, that's why I don't buy it.  How can anyone say that you can control a certain brain wave by doing a certain thing?  We know how to control certain parts of our brain, things to do with emotional responses etc...but to narrow it down to ...do this to improve your Gamma Wave activity is kind of nonsensical I think.

 To often claims like this suggest erroneously that the brain has special powers or supernatural capabilities, it is simply nonsense.
 

The actuality is at this time we can harness nueroplasticity, which refers to the brain's ability to reorganize itself by forming new neural connections throughout life. This process allows the brain to adapt to new experiences, learn new information, and recover from injuries to various degrees. Through targeted rehabilitation programs and therapies neuroplasticity is leveraged to rewire neural pathways and work towards regaining lost function to some degree. 
 

For ex: When a person with dementia is given the opportunity to figure things out on their own or face manageable obstacles, the point is to promote brain activity, problem solving skills, and cognitive flexibility enough to get them through the task. This type of intervention can be beneficial for maintaining some level of cognitive function, despite the challenges posed by conditions like dementia. 

Edited July 24 by Sherapy

[+joc]

8 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

 To often claims like this suggest erroneously that the brain has special powers or supernatural capabilities, it is simply nonsense.
 

The actuality is at this time we can harness nueroplasticity, which refers to the brain's ability to reorganize itself by forming new neural connections throughout life. This process allows the brain to adapt to new experiences, learn new information, and recover from injuries to various degrees. Through targeted rehabilitation programs and therapies neuroplasticity is leveraged to rewire neural pathways and work towards regaining lost function to some degree. 
 

For ex: When a person with dementia is given the opportunity to figure things out on their own or face manageable obstacles, the point is to promote brain activity, problem solving skills, and cognitive flexibility enough to get them through the task. This type of intervention can be beneficial for maintaining some level of cognitive function, despite the challenges posed by conditions like dementia. 

That makes perfect sense! Written by an expert in the field! And, versed in a concise and easy to read and understandable manner!👍

Who btw, isn't selling anything.

Reminds me of an old saying: Use it or lose it!

...and if one has already lost a certain amount, definitely use it to enhance what is left and to slow further losses.

Edited July 24 by joc

[+Sherapy]

2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/brain-waves

https://nhahealth.com/brainwaves-the-language/

Do I need to create a wall of links for this? 

Aww, I see what you are saying in real time EEG is what we call a diagnostic tool, it is not an intervention therapy. I take people with serious cognitive issues all the time to the Nuerologist they use EEG to diagnose issues.

Edited July 24 by Sherapy

[+Sherapy]

7 minutes ago, joc said:

That makes perfect sense! Written by an expert in the field! And, versed in a concise and easy to read and understandable manner!👍

Who btw, isn't selling anything.

Reminds me of an old saying: Use it or lose it!

...and if one has already lost a certain amount, definitely use it to enhance what is left and to slow further losses.

Or these days we say “use it to improve it” even the way we frame things plays a part in these therapies. 🤣

[Piney]

6 hours ago, Ajay0 said:

Meditation teachers need only training and experience to be qualified, but to be seen as role models in society they need to be wealthy, imho. 

These days, you can see many superficial but affluent playboys and farting, snobbish billionaires born with a silver spoon hogging the headlines in most newspapers in the west while the common man is wilfully ignored. This unfortunately creates a perception in society that being rich and having a haughty attitude is cool, and everything else is uncool.

I remember meeting with a young person in an another region and whom I became friends with. During conversation he stated how proud he was of his wealthy uncle who was a successful businessman and a drug mafia don as well and kept eulogising him as a 'great' man. 

I have heard a successful and talented doctor ruing his high workload, lack of personal time along with low pay, and stating that he wished he joined some other high paying profession instead.

So I would say it is important that we create role models in society who render tangible service and are well-paid for it as well.

So as to grift, like American cult leaders and pay to pray gurus, instead of being "of service".

My brother is a doctor and he doesn't mind volunteering his time and being of service. 

[XenoFish]

Guess I've been wasting my time. 

[+Sherapy]

1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

Guess I've been wasting my time. 

Why?

[+joc]

2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/brain-waves

https://nhahealth.com/brainwaves-the-language/

Do I need to create a wall of links for this? 

No. That's plenty.  😎

There is a plethora of studies done on brainwave activity.  Measuring the differences between different areas of the brain....that's all legit. I'm not in anyway negating that the research isn't useful. 

I just don't think that we can micro-manage our brain wave activity to any perceptible factor.  For example:  Today I am going to work on increasing my Gamma Wave activity.  One can 'exercise' their brain in a number of ways.  We can work out in a gym, and target a specific muscle group. Even a specific muscle.  But I don't think we can target specific firings of neurons in our brain.

[XenoFish]

2 minutes ago, joc said:

But I don't think we can target specific firings of neurons in our brain.

Try staring at something to you get in the zone. If you do it every day hitting that point becomes easier. It's a skill thing. 

But I've said enough. Not in the mood to argue.

[+joc]

7 hours ago, Ajay0 said:

Meditation teachers need only training and experience to be qualified, but to be seen as role models in society they need to be wealthy, imho. 

Do you think George Soros is a role model? He's wealthy.

Who cares what society thinks? Does society even think? 🤔 

[+Sherapy]

19 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Try staring at something to you get in the zone. If you do it every day hitting that point becomes easier. It's a skill thing. 

But I've said enough. Not in the mood to argue.

It is accurate for Joc to say that we cannot target specific neurons in our brain with precision. While techniques like focusing on an object or breathing etc are utilized to enhance concentration to enter a state of focus or "the zone as it’s called," is the utilization of nueroplasticity that is in play because the ability to isolate and target individual neurons in the brain remains beyond our current scientific capabilities. 

Edited July 24 by Sherapy

[XenoFish]

I quit.

[+Desertrat56]

21 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

That's cool, I am not familiar with that type of meditation, however whatever works for you is all that matters. 

It good to hear from you hope you and yours are well.

Thank you, I am doing well.  I hope you are doing well too.  I am glad you are posting a lot.

[Bendy Demon]

10 hours ago, Ajay0 said:

Meditation teachers need only training and experience to be qualified, but to be seen as role models in society they need to be wealthy, imho.

Woah there, partner. How about we back up that disastrously flaming garbage scow. Are you really saying that a meditation teacher has to be wealthy in order to be role models? To be trusted or respected? Seriously? Wealthy? What about experience and expertise? What about knowledge and wisdom? I would think that means FAR more than being 'wealthy'.

There are plenty of people out there who are wealthy yet with many their I.Q barely rivals that of a potted plant! Money is nice but if I seek counsel with a teacher I rely on their pool of knowledge, wisdom and understanding not how 'wealthy' they are.

 

[Grim Reaper 6]

3 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

Thank you, I am doing well.  I hope you are doing well too.  I am glad you are posting a lot.

You're very welcome my friend.

[Piney]

5 hours ago, Bendy Demon said:

Woah there, partner. How about we back up that disastrously flaming garbage scow. Are you really saying that a meditation teacher has to be wealthy in order to be role models? To be trusted or respected? Seriously? Wealthy? What about experience and expertise? What about knowledge and wisdom? I would think that means FAR more than being 'wealthy'.

There are plenty of people out there who are wealthy yet with many their I.Q barely rivals that of a potted plant! Money is nice but if I seek counsel with a teacher I rely on their pool of knowledge, wisdom and understanding not how 'wealthy' they are.

 

🙏

[Guyver]

Good news. I don’t have to worry about it since I have given up meditating for long time now.

[lightly]

I just close my eyes and breath  .  .  .  allowing my body to relax…and my mind to become quieter and calmer.. sometimes I picture the surface of water becoming calmer.      If that’s meditation I like it.  If that’s not meditation I like it.       

[lightly]

On 7/24/2024 at 4:48 AM, joc said:

No. That's plenty.  😎

There is a plethora of studies done on brainwave activity.  Measuring the differences between different areas of the brain....that's all legit. I'm not in anyway negating that the research isn't useful. 

I just don't think that we can micro-manage our brain wave activity to any perceptible factor.  For example:  Today I am going to work on increasing my Gamma Wave activity.  One can 'exercise' their brain in a number of ways.  We can work out in a gym, and target a specific muscle group. Even a specific muscle.  But I don't think we can target specific firings of neurons in our brain.

Yup.  . according to some info in X’s link (post#76)  certain activities increase certain brain waves?   Like when your creating music …alpha activity increases.   So, it’s sort of a mental exercise?

Brain Waves and the Electroencephalogram

Numerous EEG studies suggest that there are particular brain wave patterns and brain structures associated with creative problem solving, or at least specific phases within the problem-solving process (Martindale & Hasenfus 1978; Martindale & Hines 1975; Martindale et al. 1984Martindale and Hasenfus, 1978Martindale and Hines, 1975Martindale et al., 1984) (Figures 3.2 and 3.3). Martindale and Hasenfus (1978), for example, obtained EEG readings from 12 undergraduates with electrodes over the right posterior temporal area of the brain. Wave activity was recorded while the students waited for the study to begin, after the experiment had begun and they were directed to think about a fantasy story they could write, and while they were actually writing the story. Findings indicated that the students who had been rated by their instructors to be highly creative did indeed exhibit higher alpha activity during the inspiration phases than during the elaboration phases of the writing project. No differences were found for the students rated as less creative.

Edited July 27 by lightly

[Bed of chaos]

On 7/23/2024 at 9:59 AM, Desertrat56 said:

I use a visualizatioin meditation.   I started by listening to tapes from different people, my favorite was Dick Sutphen.   But I don't need the tapes now.  For me it is the relaxation of the body and moviing my mind out of my monkey merry go round of worries and emotional turmoil.   Actually, monkeys probably don't need to meditate so it is my human merry go round of worries and emotional turmoil that I move out of.

I definitely believe visualization techniques are helpful. I've used this multiple times to help me sleep. I'd also apply it to billiards, something I love doing. When I watch NBA free throw players it looks like they visualize (hand movements) before shots. I still don't know what or what not meditation is. Though what Xenofish said "focused actions" sounds about right. Or idk constant focus w persistence.

Edited July 28 by Bed of chaos

[+joc]

On 7/24/2024 at 6:52 AM, XenoFish said:

Try staring at something to you get in the zone. If you do it every day hitting that point becomes easier. It's a skill thing. 

But I've said enough. Not in the mood to argue.

 I stare at things all the time.  One day I was staring at the patterns of grain in the stained wood of the door in my doctors office and my brain created the face of a black woman.  Not coincidentally, the woman that had just left the room after taking my vitals was a black woman.   I don't know what zone I was in.  Probably the, this is taking too long but I will just be a patient patient zone.  And as I contemplated the relationship between the black woman I had just met, and the face of the black woman on the door, the doctor walked in.

Thinking, I think, is the key to all brain wave activity change.  Our thoughts definitely affect our entire being.  If we can help people change their thinking, then I think, we can make their lives better by impowering them.   My basic mode of interaction with people I don't know is that they are just trying to sell me something.   But if someone I know, like you or Piney or Sheri, who is an expert in their field tells me something is working for them...I'm good with it.  I'm just a sponge, soaking up the wisdom of the wise.

[+Desertrat56]

10 hours ago, joc said:

 I stare at things all the time.  One day I was staring at the patterns of grain in the stained wood of the door in my doctors office and my brain created the face of a black woman.  Not coincidentally, the woman that had just left the room after taking my vitals was a black woman.   I don't know what zone I was in.  Probably the, this is taking too long but I will just be a patient patient zone.  And as I contemplated the relationship between the black woman I had just met, and the face of the black woman on the door, the doctor walked in.

Thinking, I think, is the key to all brain wave activity change.  Our thoughts definitely affect our entire being.  If we can help people change their thinking, then I think, we can make their lives better by impowering them.   My basic mode of interaction with people I don't know is that they are just trying to sell me something.   But if someone I know, like you or Piney or Sheri, who is an expert in their field tells me something is working for them...I'm good with it.  I'm just a sponge, soaking up the wisdom of the wise.

When you are playing your guitar and only feeling the notes, letting your fingers do the work and zoning out mentally, you are meditating.   It is that way for any artistic endeavor, the best work is in an "altered" state, meaning you are not thinking about the bills or the guy who cut you off in traffic, you are imbedded in the music or what ever artistic (or mundane) activity you are doing.   Walking a familiar path can be a meditation.

[+joc]

12 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

When you are playing your guitar and only feeling the notes, letting your fingers do the work and zoning out mentally, you are meditating.   It is that way for any artistic endeavor, the best work is in an "altered" state, meaning you are not thinking about the bills or the guy who cut you off in traffic, you are imbedded in the music or what ever artistic (or mundane) activity you are doing.   Walking a familiar path can be a meditation.

Never really thought about it that way.  Interesting!