Where/when did satan and demonic idealogy originate?

[Alex_Rogan]

I am not an expert in anything, but I have questions and curiosity.

During my crisis of faith, or rather a crisis of faith in doctrines, I am wondering who introduced the concept of satan.

Certainly every society/culture has made up 'boogeymen' to explain the bad things that happen in life, but when and where did those concepts begin to receive worship? 

I'm looking for data from the scholars here. Not interested in debate, argument, or insults.

Edited August 1 by Saru
Removed reference to other member

[Alex_Rogan]

This is certainly a difficult subject, and I'm hesitant to flesh out the idea and share it. Looking back at the Old Testament, it seems the majority of the time it was about people who were really into awful stuff.

How bad does a society have to be to need a God to tell them not to murder an lie, etc.

Alot of it seemed to be about people worshiping weird stuff like Molech and the Cannanite stuff... I can't recall all the names and practices. I am not an expert. 

Did the concept of a good God evolve out of all the awful stuff?

When did it go from explaining the awful stuff - like death and misfortune - to worshiping and using the awful stuff as a means to elevate a persons life at the cost of others?

Which came first?

I should stop here and wait for replies before going much further.

(i know I spelled stuff wrong, but I don't respect it enough to look it up and correct it)

[Ajay0]

3 hours ago, Alex_Rogan said:

I am not an expert in anything, but I have questions and curiosity.

During my crisis of faith, or rather a crisis of faith in doctrines, I am wondering who introduced the concept of satan.

Certainly every society/culture has made up 'boogeymen' to explain the bad things that happen in life, but when and where did those concepts begin to receive worship? 

I'm looking for data from the scholars here. Not interested in debate, argument, or insults.

As per eastern religious philosophy, the mind is considered to correlate with Maya/Mara.

The nature of the raw mind is to tend to the negative, as per eastern religious philosophy. Hence training of the mind is emphasized to overcome these defects and ensure the mind becomes an asset instead of a liability.

Quote

 

“A disciplined mind brings happiness.” ~ Buddha (Dhammapada, verse 35)

More than those who hate you, more than all your enemies, an untrained mind does greater harm. More than your mother, more than your father, more than all your family, a well-trained mind does greater good. ~ Buddha (Dhammapada, verse 38,43)

Hard it is to train the mind, which goes where it likes and does what it wants. But a trained mind brings happiness. ~ Buddha (Dhammapada, verse 35)

https://www.buddhanet.net/dhammapada/d_mind.htm

 

Ramana Maharshi similarly has stated that the untamed mind is Maya, and its transcendence is necessary to perceive reality and the Self as it is.

 

Quote

"The mind is maya. Reality lies beyond the mind. So long as the mind functions there is duality, maya, etc. Once it is transcended the Reality shines forth. Although it is said to shine forth Self-effulgence is the Self."  ( 'Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi', Talk 433)

 

So there is no external Satan like figure in the Dharmic religions of Hinduism or Buddhism to be worried about. The only culprit is one's own untrained mind.

[Alex_Rogan]

@Ajay0

That's beautiful.

It still reinforces my question/ponderance

[Ajay0]

3 minutes ago, Alex_Rogan said:

@Ajay0

That's beautiful.

It still reinforces my question/ponderance

I think it is the Zoroastrian religion with its dualistic concepts of light and darkness that may have influenced Judaism and the rest of the other Abrahamic religions with similar concepts of dualism.

https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Zoroastrianism

Quote

Due to its great antiquity, Zoroastrianism was tremendously influential on the history, culture, and art of Persia, as well as on the development of the Abrahamic religions. According to scholars, Zoroastrianism was the first religion to believe in angels, a day of judgment, a Satan figure, and an ongoing battle between forces of light and darkness in the cosmos. These ideas later influenced the theological development of Judaism (and, by extension, Christianity and Islam).

 

[Alex_Rogan]

@Ajay0

Thank you so much.

So many things to consider.

I appreciate it greatly.

I'm hoping for more responses before the thread gets derailed into bickering or inevitable politics. lol? 

Thank you sincerely.

 

[Alex_Rogan]

@Ajay0

so... to follow up....

in the belief systems (eastern) you mentioned, did/do people worship Maya?

I imagine some iteration probably exists, even if it's just attempts at keeping individual Maya from transcending to Mara. How sad. Is there a word/phrase for someone like that?

 

[Ajay0]

1 hour ago, Alex_Rogan said:

@Ajay0

so... to follow up....

in the belief systems (eastern) you mentioned, did/do people worship Maya?

 No, Maya/Mara is not worshipped. They are considered to be a falsehood or delusion. 

As mentioned in the article, even in the Gatha, or primary Zoroastrian scriptures, the prophet Zarathustra does not mention any evil spirit. The enemy of the divine order is considered as "the Lie" ,  an abstract concept that is impersonal.

 It possibly denotes the same meaning as falsehood or delusion in the Dharmic religions.

The satan-like evil spirit of  Angra Mainyu seems to be a later development.

As per the article, Angra Mainyu can also be conceptually spoken as 'destructive mind' or 'malignant mentality' , similar to that of the dharmic interpretation.

It is possible that the prophet similarly meant Angra Mainyu to be the 'untamed mind', which was later personified or anthropomorphized as an evil spirit of sorts and probably the antecedent to the Abrahamic Satan.

Edited August 1 by Ajay0

[cormac mac airt]

3 hours ago, Alex_Rogan said:

I am not an expert in anything, but I have questions and curiosity.

During my crisis of faith, or rather a crisis of faith in doctrines, I am wondering who introduced the concept of satan.

Certainly every society/culture has made up 'boogeymen' to explain the bad things that happen in life, but when and where did those concepts begin to receive worship? 

I'm looking for data from the scholars here. Not interested in debate, argument, or insults.

Which version of Satan, the original or "the Devil"?

cormac

[Alex_Rogan]

1 minute ago, cormac mac airt said:

Which version of Satan, the original or "the Devil"?

cormac

all encompassing, by all names, practices, and iterations.

[cormac mac airt]

Just now, Alex_Rogan said:

all encompassing, by all names, practices, and iterations.

By going outside of Jewish and Christian concepts of Satan you would no longer be discussing Satan but simply evil in general. So which is it, Satan or evil? The two bear no 1:1 correlation originally. 

cormac

[Alex_Rogan]

18 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

 So which is it, Satan or evil

"evil' by the iterations of evil, by whichever name, the concept.

How and when was it conceived....

....and put into put into a practice and given figureheads.

 

also, specifically each name iteration satan, lucifer, shaitan, anti-mara...?

 

Edited August 1 by Alex_Rogan
ooof. srry edit. deleted clunky quote and added to my response..

[Alex_Rogan]

@cormac mac airt

I've been hoping for some knowledge and data references from you. Please don't let me down. 

[Alex_Rogan]

also

@Ajay0

I really appreciate how you provided quotes from your links. I don't click on links. lol. Nice format. Excellent

[cormac mac airt]

1 minute ago, Alex_Rogan said:

"evil' by the iterations of evil, by whichever name, the concept.

How and when was it conceived....

....and put into put into a practice.

 

So not remotely what the title of this thread suggests. 

Quote

 

Where/when did satan and demonic idealogy originate?

Certainly there was a time in human history when those concepts didn't exist... maybe?

 

"Evil" as such likely existed from at least the earliest historical times in many locations such as Sumer and Ancient Egypt, but that's an entirely different discussion than the thread title suggests. As to the actual question asked in the title Satan/Ha-Satan existed in Judaism from before circa 550 BC within part of the Tanakh as an Angel of God who was used by God to test mankinds resolve to do His will. Satan as "the Devil" didn't occur until after circa 550 BC which itself was around the end of the Babylonian Captivity when aspects of Satan/Ha-Satan were merged with Samael, an angel of questionable reputation in early Talmudic and Midrashic literature, and Samyaza a fallen angel mentioned in the Book of Enoch. All of which is general information that can be found in many sources including Wiki. There's nothing really mysterious about Satan other than why he went from being God's tester of humanity's resolve to becoming "the Devil". 

cormac

[eight bits]

4 hours ago, Alex_Rogan said:

Certainly every society/culture has made up 'boogeymen' to explain the bad things that happen in life, but when and where did those concepts begin to receive worship? 

I lost you here. Our long-time-no-see colleague @ReadTheGreatControversyEGW posted stories about a variety of reformed Satan worshippers, but I don't think there are very many people who worship Satan or demons. Christians as early as Paul (the earliest Christian literature we have) viewed other people's gods, what they worship, as demons (like maybe in 1 Corinthians 10:21) and Paul personifies a supernatural opponent to the spread of his faith who employs human agents (2 Corinthians 11:13-15).

But there's an old story there: there are people who say that other people worship evil, but there don't seem to be many people who say of themselves that they worship evil. Except recently, when that sort of thing pays, but you seem to be asking about olden times.

Breaking "taboos" (= socially defined "bad" acts) probably has always imparted a thrill that can be spun as the acquisition of preter-or-supernatural power, and we know there are consciously performed ritual versions of what would otherwise be bad acts (human sacrifice, animal sacrifices of conspicuous cruelty - perhaps @Ajay0 has some comment about that, ... the legendary Mafia initiation where the newly made man supposedly does something anti-Catholic which ensures that he is going to Hell, so now he is free to do anything ...).

OK. It's a big subject, and whenever the deepest roots first took shape in the human psyche, that has to have been way before there was writing anywhere.

[XenoFish]

Satan as in the pop culture sense is a Christian invention. Without Christianity the devil wouldn't exist. Because you can't have an All Good God without an All Evil God.

Edited August 1 by XenoFish

[zep73]

It still amazes me that Christians today can't see there was no devil in the Tanakh. Just a servant of their god. And then, *boom*, 1st century he pops up and becomes the most wicked thing ever. An excuse to murder thousands of innocent people based on pure suspicion.

Btw. Demons were stolen from Greek mythology, and twisted by the early Christians

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimon

Edited August 1 by zep73

[Alter2Ego]

On 7/31/2024 at 9:33 PM, Alex_Rogan said:

I am not an expert in anything, but I have questions and curiosity.

During my crisis of faith, or rather a crisis of faith in doctrines, I am wondering who introduced the concept of satan.

Certainly every society/culture has made up 'boogeymen' to explain the bad things that happen in life, but when and where did those concepts begin to receive worship? 

I'm looking for data from the scholars here. Not interested in debate, argument, or insults.

Alex_Rogan:

According to God's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible, Satan is not a mere concept but is a real spirit person who was first introduced at Genesis 3:1. On that occasion, he used his invisibility (since he is a spirit) to make it appear that a snake was talking to the first woman, Eve.  He convinced her during that conversation to rebel against Jehovah and eat of the forbidden fruit.

Genesis 3:1

"Now the serpent was the most cautious of all the wild animals of the field that Jehovah God had made. So it said to the woman: “Did God really say that you must not eat from every tree of the garden?”"

Genesis 3:2

"At this the woman said to the serpent: “We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden.""

Genesis 3:3

"But God has said about the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden: ‘You must not eat from it, no, you must not touch it; otherwise you will die.’”

Genesis 3:4

"At this the serpent said to the woman: “You certainly will not die.""

Genesis 3:5

"For God knows that in the very day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and bad.”"

Genesis 3:6

"Consequently, the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was something desirable to the eyes, yes, the tree was pleasing to look at. So she began taking of its fruit and eating it. Afterward, she also gave some to her husband when he was with her, and he began eating it."

[+Hammerclaw]

On The View.

Edited August 4 by Hammerclaw

[Dejarma]

On 8/1/2024 at 5:33 AM, Alex_Rogan said:

I am wondering who introduced the concept of satan.

God

[Guyver]

Regarding the OP….the oldest known reference to Satan comes from the Bible in the Book of Job.  We know by evidence that it is the oldest book in the Bible, according to Biblical Scholars.  In that account of Satan, he is almost like a golfing buddy of God.  Someone to make jokes and bets with.  
 

But, according to Christians, Satan is the enemy of the church and ruler of this world, in spite of Jesus.

[beyondism]

In fevered imagination.

[Alex_Rogan]

The responses are helping shed some light on something that has been bothering me.

Thanks to each of you. 

Perhaps I referenced 'satan' and included 'evil' because it has many names. I would love to pick the brains (metaphorically) of some of you well studied folks.

You have my utmost respect for the knowledge you've absorbed. Broad strokes and detail, each. 

There's not enough time to absorb everything and digest it. 

 

(also.... I have love and respect for @ReadTheGreatControversyEGW, if for no other reason than she gets relentlessly attacked and bashed without batting an eye.)

....also. @Saru, thanks for cleaning up my post. I was out of line. I'm sorry.

[Piney]

 

 

On 8/6/2024 at 12:41 AM, Alex_Rogan said:

also.... I have love and respect for

@ReadTheGreatControversyEGW, if for no other reason than she gets relentlessly attacked and bashed without batting an eye.)

@Saru

She came right out of the gate bashing and attacking first while lying the whole time. 

Then she said I lied about my wife dying.