Where/when did satan and demonic idealogy originate?

[Coil]

On 8/1/2024 at 4:33 AM, Alex_Rogan said:

I am not an expert in anything, but I have questions and curiosity.

During my crisis of faith, or rather a crisis of faith in doctrines, I am wondering who introduced the concept of satan.

Certainly every society/culture has made up 'boogeymen' to explain the bad things that happen in life, but when and where did those concepts begin to receive worship? 

I'm looking for data from the scholars here. Not interested in debate, argument, or insults.

Initially, with the appearance of the universe, the Divine Mother created, at the request of God, four powerful beings to work in space. They were so powerful that they thought that they could create without looking back at God's plan and when they created on their own, they began to express not the divine but their personal, and therefore selfish, so these gods fell and became the great demons of space. After this, the cosmic Mother turned to God what to do next, because these gods violated God's plan. Then he told her to create new gods, but to give them little power and make them obedient .. this is how angels appeared. And the first creatures became opponents of God and bred many of their offspring in space, this is how the cosmic and earthly hierarchies of demons appeared.

Thus, the appearance of Satan and all demons can be explained by the departure of the first gods from the divine plan for the development of the universe. Since God knows all the events that will happen in the universe, such a turn of events is not unexpected for him, so he accepts such conditions of the game and through the struggle leads evolution to the divine goal. Some of the first four fallen have already returned to God, while others persist, their offspring, already born demons, continue to stubbornly harm and delay our development.

Demons will be present in our world as long as we have shortcomings. They tempt us to show us our shortcomings, so God cannot destroy them or expel them from our planet until people themselves are purified, then these creatures will leave our planet because there will be no more food for them.

Edited August 9 by Coil

[Essan]

It's all part of the process of usurping the old religion when introducing a new one.   Just as, for example, the winter solstice festivities become Christmas, and churches were built inside henges or stone circles, so the old gods were deemed to be daemons - so those who continued to worship them would be deemed followers of evil.   Which, for example, is also why the popular image of the Devil is actually the old god Pan.

Of course, many religions also had a concept of duality, as a means of explaining why bad things happened, despite their god being "good".

[Essan]

And on a completely separate note - nice to see you again @Coil !

[Abramelin]

2 hours ago, Coil said:

Initially, with the appearance of the universe, the Divine Mother created, at the request of God, four powerful beings to work in space. They were so powerful that they thought that they could create without looking back at God's plan and when they created on their own, they began to express not the divine but their personal, and therefore selfish, so these gods fell and became the great demons of space. After this, the cosmic Mother turned to God what to do next, because these gods violated God's plan. Then he told her to create new gods, but to give them little power and make them obedient .. this is how angels appeared. And the first creatures became opponents of God and bred many of their offspring in space, this is how the cosmic and earthly hierarchies of demons appeared.

Thus, the appearance of Satan and all demons can be explained by the departure of the first gods from the divine plan for the development of the universe. Since God knows all the events that will happen in the universe, such a turn of events is not unexpected for him, so he accepts such conditions of the game and through the struggle leads evolution to the divine goal. Some of the first four fallen have already returned to God, while others persist, their offspring, already born demons, continue to stubbornly harm and delay our development.

Demons will be present in our world as long as we have shortcomings. They tempt us to show us our shortcomings, so God cannot destroy them or expel them from our planet until people themselves are purified, then these creatures will leave our planet because there will be no more food for them.

If I remember well, this is the Gnostic view. From the Secret gospel of John? (Nag Hammadi manuscripts).

[Abramelin]

37 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

If I remember well, this is the Gnostic view. From the Secret gospel of John? (Nag Hammadi manuscripts).

Yep, I was right:

https://gnosis.study/library/Гнозис/Исследования/ENG/Davies S. - The Secret Book of John. The Gnostic Gospel.pdf

Edited to add:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaldabaoth

Edited August 9 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

@Alex_Rogan

If wading through the texts I linked to overwhelmed you - which I can understand - then click the next link :

https://gnosticismexplained.org/the-gnostic-demiurge/

There you will find the origin of 'evil' as depicted by the later Christians.

Every link I posted is safe, btw. I know you have some sort of link-anxiety.

[Abramelin]

Yahweh repeatedly says he is a 'jealous god'.

Gnostics say, 'if he is the only god, who is he jealous about?'

And that you can read in those links, @Alex_Rogan

I think I found the birth certificate of your Satan as an evil entity: it's the God of Jews, Christians and Muslims.

Richard Dawkins would probably agree with me...

Edited to add that famous quote from Dawkins:

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."

Edited August 9 by Abramelin

[Coil]

4 hours ago, Essan said:

And on a completely separate note - nice to see you again @Coil !

Thank you, glad to see you too.

 

Quote

 

Abramelin

If I remember well, this is the Gnostic view. From the Secret gospel of John? (Nag Hammadi manuscripts).

 

My information is from yoga, but maybe the gnostic was the original information, I can't say.

Here is a table where you can see that already at the level of the Overmind, there is a division into knowledge and ignorance, then a mixture of knowledge and ignorance at the level of the illumined mind, which, descending to the material level of the human mind, becomes pure ignorance.That is, the departure from the divine will has already occurred at the middle levels of God.

And here is the second table where the asuras - the titans, the spirits of personality and the carriers of the ego become opponents of God. One of these titans inspired Hitler to conquer and was extremely cruel:

Spoiler

 

The Dwarf Napoleon

(Hitler. October 1939)

Behold, by Maya’s fantasy of will
A violent miracle takes sudden birth,
The real grows one with the incredible.
In the control of her magician wand
The small achieves things great, the base things grand.
This puny creature would bestride the earth
Even as the immense colossus of the past.
Napoleon’s mind was swift and bold and vast,
His heart was calm and stormy like the sea,
His will dynamic in its grip and clasp.
His eye could hold a world within its grasp
And see the great and small things sovereignly.
A movement of gigantic depth and scope
He seized and gave coherence to its hope.
Far other this creature of a nether clay,
Void of all grandeur, like a gnome at play,
Iron and mud his nature’s mingled stuff,
A little limited visionary brain
Cunning and skilful in its narrow vein,
A sentimental egoist poor and rough,
Whose heart was never sweet and fresh and young,
A headlong spirit driven by hopes and fears,
Intense neurotic with his shouts and tears,
Violent and cruel, devil, child and brute,
This screaming orator with his strident tongue,
This prophet of a scanty fixed idea,
Plays now the leader of our human march;
His might shall build the future’s triumph arch.
Now is the world for his eating a ripe fruit.
His shadow falls from London to Corea.
Cities and nations crumble in his course.
A terror holds the peoples in its grip:
World-destiny waits upon that foaming lip.
A Titan Power upholds this pigmy man,
The crude dwarf instrument of a mighty Force.
Hater of the free spirit’s joy and light,
Made only of strength and skill and giant might,
A Will to trample humanity into clay
And unify earth beneath one iron sway,
Insists upon its fierce enormous plan.
Trampling man’s mind and will into one mould
Docile and facile in a dreadful hold,
It cries its demon slogans to the crowd.
But if its tenebrous empire were allowed,
That mastery would prepare the dismal hour
When the Inconscient shall regain its right,
And man who emerged as Nature’s conscious power,
Shall sink into the deep original night
Sharing like all her forms that went before
The doom of the mammoth and the dinosaur.
It is the shadow of the Titan’s robe
That looms across the panic-stricken globe.
In his high villa on the fatal hill
Alone he listens to that sovereign Voice,
Dictator of his action’s sudden choice,
The tiger leap of a demoniac skill.
An energy his body cannot invest,—
Too small and human for that dreadful guest,
A tortured channel, not a happy vessel,—
Drives him to think and act and cry and wrestle.
Thus driven he must stride on conquering all,
Threatening and clamouring, brutal, invincible,
Until he meets upon his storm-swept road
A greater devil—or thunderstroke of God.

 

In space, the center of demonic forces is the red giant Antares, from which threads of influence stretch to many planets, and on our earth there is its many-headed representative.

 

 

[Abramelin]

4 minutes ago, Coil said:

My information is from yoga, but maybe the gnostic was the original information, I can't say.

I'm a 100% sure that the Gnostic belief was the true origin of your post I responded to.

Click the links.

 

[lightly]

 As for the original sources for the ideas of god and devil / good and evil , I think maybe it’s as simple as day and night.   Night is DARKNESS …& Day is LIGHT.*       Imagination did the rest?  
     eta:  darkness is unseen & unknown/ignorance.. while light is full of revelation/knowledge.    ?

Edited August 9 by lightly

[Piney]

46 minutes ago, Coil said:

Thank you, glad to see you too.

 

My information is from yoga, but maybe the gnostic was the original information, I can't say.

Here is a table where you can see that already at the level of the Overmind, there is a division into knowledge and ignorance, then a mixture of knowledge and ignorance at the level of the illumined mind, which, descending to the material level of the human mind, becomes pure ignorance.That is, the departure from the divine will has already occurred at the middle levels of God.

And here is the second table where the asuras - the titans, the spirits of personality and the carriers of the ego become opponents of God. One of these titans inspired Hitler to conquer and was extremely cruel:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

The Dwarf Napoleon

(Hitler. October 1939)

Behold, by Maya’s fantasy of will
A violent miracle takes sudden birth,
The real grows one with the incredible.
In the control of her magician wand
The small achieves things great, the base things grand.
This puny creature would bestride the earth
Even as the immense colossus of the past.
Napoleon’s mind was swift and bold and vast,
His heart was calm and stormy like the sea,
His will dynamic in its grip and clasp.
His eye could hold a world within its grasp
And see the great and small things sovereignly.
A movement of gigantic depth and scope
He seized and gave coherence to its hope.
Far other this creature of a nether clay,
Void of all grandeur, like a gnome at play,
Iron and mud his nature’s mingled stuff,
A little limited visionary brain
Cunning and skilful in its narrow vein,
A sentimental egoist poor and rough,
Whose heart was never sweet and fresh and young,
A headlong spirit driven by hopes and fears,
Intense neurotic with his shouts and tears,
Violent and cruel, devil, child and brute,
This screaming orator with his strident tongue,
This prophet of a scanty fixed idea,
Plays now the leader of our human march;
His might shall build the future’s triumph arch.
Now is the world for his eating a ripe fruit.
His shadow falls from London to Corea.
Cities and nations crumble in his course.
A terror holds the peoples in its grip:
World-destiny waits upon that foaming lip.
A Titan Power upholds this pigmy man,
The crude dwarf instrument of a mighty Force.
Hater of the free spirit’s joy and light,
Made only of strength and skill and giant might,
A Will to trample humanity into clay
And unify earth beneath one iron sway,
Insists upon its fierce enormous plan.
Trampling man’s mind and will into one mould
Docile and facile in a dreadful hold,
It cries its demon slogans to the crowd.
But if its tenebrous empire were allowed,
That mastery would prepare the dismal hour
When the Inconscient shall regain its right,
And man who emerged as Nature’s conscious power,
Shall sink into the deep original night
Sharing like all her forms that went before
The doom of the mammoth and the dinosaur.
It is the shadow of the Titan’s robe
That looms across the panic-stricken globe.
In his high villa on the fatal hill
Alone he listens to that sovereign Voice,
Dictator of his action’s sudden choice,
The tiger leap of a demoniac skill.
An energy his body cannot invest,—
Too small and human for that dreadful guest,
A tortured channel, not a happy vessel,—
Drives him to think and act and cry and wrestle.
Thus driven he must stride on conquering all,
Threatening and clamouring, brutal, invincible,
Until he meets upon his storm-swept road
A greater devil—or thunderstroke of God.

 

In space, the center of demonic forces is the red giant Antares, from which threads of influence stretch to many planets, and on our earth there is its many-headed representative.

 

 

Alexander the Great brought Hinduism to Egypt so there is no doubt the Gnostics borrowed from it.

[Piney]

45 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

I'm a 100% sure that the Gnostic belief was the true origin of your post I responded to.

Click the links.

 

I quoted the wrong person....

3 minutes ago, Piney said:

Alexander the Great brought Hinduism to Egypt so there is no doubt the Gnostics borrowed from it.

This was aimed at you Rob. 

[Abramelin]

13 minutes ago, Piney said:

Alexander the Great brought Hinduism to Egypt so there is no doubt the Gnostics borrowed from it.

I think it was the Indian emperor Ashoka who sent Buddhist monks to Alexandria, Rome, Antioch and other places in Europe.

Oh, I know: Hinduism =/= Buddhism, but they are mother and daughter.

[Piney]

5 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

I think it was the Indian emperor Ashoka who sent Buddhist monks to Alexandria, Rome, Antioch and other places in Europe.

Oh, I know: Hinduism =/= Buddhism, but they are mother and daughter.

It was Ashoka who spread Buddhism to the Greeks and then they developed Zen. 

But some of Alexander's troops converted to Hinduism before that. Some theorize Alexander himself converted. 

[Abramelin]

7 minutes ago, Piney said:

It was Ashoka who spread Buddhism to the Greeks and then they developed Zen.

I assume you meant 'Dhzyian", not Zen.

"Zen" was the Japanese way of pronouncing " that word.

And it was the Afghan Buddhists who developed 'Zen'.

That's why the Japanese are very much interested in the history of Afghanistan.

Edited August 9 by Abramelin

[Piney]

5 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

I assume you meant 'Dhzyian", not Zen.

"Zen" was the Japanese way of pronouncing " that word.

And it was the Afghan Buddhists who developed 'Zen'.

That's why the Japanese are very much interested in the history of Afghanistan.

The Afghan kingdoms were Greco-Bactrian founded by Greeks. Then Greek-Bactrian monks running from Muslim aggression founded the Shaolin Temple. There is was know as Chan. They also brought Vajrapani (Hercules)

It then spread to Japan along with a version of Hercules known to them as Nio.

I use the Japanese term because @Sherapy and I are both SoCal/ O'ahu Zen practitioners. 

 

 

[Abramelin]

2 minutes ago, Piney said:

The Afghan kingdoms were Greco-Bactrian founded by Greeks. Then Greek-Bactrian monks running from Muslim aggression founded the Shaolin Temple. There is was know as Chan. They also brought Vajrapani (Hercules)

It then spread to Japan along with a version of Hercules known to them as Nio.

I use the Japanese term because @Sherapy and I are both SoCal/ O'ahu Zen practitioners. 

 

 

My source of information is Idries Shah.

Cheers.

[Piney]

6 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

My source of information is Idries Shah.

Cheers.

Very Afghan nationalistic. My source is the Shaolin Temple and the Byodo-In. 

[Abramelin]

Just now, Piney said:

Very Afghan nationalistic. My source is the Shaolin Temple and the Byodo-In. 

His mother is a Scottish woman.

[Piney]

1 minute ago, Abramelin said:

His mother is a Scottish woman.

I know. He was also called out for making everything "Sufi". 

[Abramelin]

Idries Shah has been called one of the "Pillars".

Fundamental Muslims hate him.

[Abramelin]

1 minute ago, Piney said:

I know. He was also called out for making everything "Sufi". 

And thàt is stupid.

You know, I once copied an entire book of him, and pasted it on one of my sites.

Read it, and be amazed.

Wait for my post about him.

[Abramelin]

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/ttzlibrary/viewtopic.php?p=302#p302

[Piney]

5 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Idries Shah has been called one of the "Pillars".

Fundamental Muslims hate him.

If more listened to him we wouldn't have all the frigging violence and cultural destruction.

[lightly]

In every state, the Heart is my support: In this kingdom of existence it is my sovereign. When I tire of the treachery of Reason God knows I am grateful to my heart.. .* Idries Shah 1978