Atheism - A deep dive

[+Link of Hyrule]

This video is part 1 in an intended 10 part video essay collection on atheism. I've been watching this channel for some time, and have been really impressed by this person's academic approach to all things religious (or in this case, non-religious). 
The video explores a broad overview of what atheism is and suggests that the definition might be more complex than "lack of belief in god or a creator". 

Feel free to discuss anything of interest about atheism or the video. I was particularly interested in how the video explored atheism in philosophies that believe in other supernatural things like spirits or ghosts or reincarnation, and in how there are many atheist groups in America and around the world that now meet on Sundays as part of a regular non-worship event, thus blurring the lines between religion and atheism.

Worth a watch for anyone interested  

~ Regards, Link of Hyrule

[Cho Jinn]

44 minutes ago, Link of Hyrule said:

and in how there are many atheist groups in America and around the world that now meet on Sundays as part of a regular non-worship event, thus blurring the lines between religion and atheism.

They (the self-identifying, capital-A atheists) are often happy to substitute worship of the State for some idealized deity, oblivious to the irony.  Interesting and useful video.

[Dejarma]

58 minutes ago, Link of Hyrule said:

"lack of belief in god or a creator". 

that's what it is! it's not 'more complex' 😏

[+Link of Hyrule]

24 minutes ago, Dejarma said:

that's what it is! it's not 'more complex' 😏

And yet if we look at the world we live in, atheism is expressed in so many varied ways. From those who have never heard of the concept of "god" (atheists, "without god") to those who believe in ancestral spirits or karma or reincarnation but not a creator. Some actively "believe" there is no god while others simply find no compelling evidence to claim there is one and therefore default to not. Some hardline atheists would be just as dismissive of a belief in ghosts or miracles as a creator force, while others would embrace them. Some go to a weekly gathering where they pass around a collection plate to help pay for the guest speaker (usually a guest lecturer in natural sciences or philosophy or some such) and venue hire and try to sell you merch to wear your atheism with pride, while others practice other philosophies such as Buddhism. Then there's the atheists that won't identify themselves as atheists for fear of being marginalised.

While the definition may be simple on the surface, in practice it's a complex beast that's worth discussion. In the US, 65% of atheists still believe in some kind of supernatural thing, be it miracles or ghosts or reincarnation or karma. In China, that number is 92%.  Heck, the video at the start of the OP is 19 minutes long and it's part 1 of a planned 10 part documentary exploring how atheism is expressed by believers and non-believers around the world. 

Hence the topic, it's going to be interesting to dive into it. Have a good weekend, I look forward to reading people's contributions  .

[Dejarma]

17 minutes ago, Link of Hyrule said:

And yet if we look at the world we live in, atheism is expressed in so many varied ways.

To me Atheism is the notion of god/s & a higher power being totally & utterly bloody ridiculous! 

there are no grey areas IMO... you either believe in god/s, a higher power of some sort or you don't😉

[XenoFish]

As far as I've been able to tell, there are two types of atheist. Those who have zero belief in any god/s and those who are psycho about it. Kinda the vegans of spirituality and religion. Who would've made ideal religious fanatics. Except that fervor is direct either towards hardcore anti-theism and/or some type of socio-political ideology. 

Personally, believe whatever you want. None of it matters and none of it is real.

[Grim Reaper 6]

54 minutes ago, Link of Hyrule said:

And yet if we look at the world we live in, atheism is expressed in so many varied ways. From those who have never heard of the concept of "god" (atheists, "without god") to those who believe in ancestral spirits or karma or reincarnation but not a creator. Some actively "believe" there is no god while others simply find no compelling evidence to claim there is one and therefore default to not. Some hardline atheists would be just as dismissive of a belief in ghosts or miracles as a creator force, while others would embrace them. Some go to a weekly gathering where they pass around a collection plate to help pay for the guest speaker (usually a guest lecturer in natural sciences or philosophy or some such) and venue hire and try to sell you merch to wear your atheism with pride, while others practice other philosophies such as Buddhism. Then there's the atheists that won't identify themselves as atheists for fear of being marginalised.

While the definition may be simple on the surface, in practice it's a complex beast that's worth discussion.

 

54 minutes ago, Link of Hyrule said:

In the US, 65% of atheists still believe in some kind of supernatural thing, be it miracles or ghosts or reincarnation or karma. In China, that number is 92%.  Heck, the video at the start of the OP is 19 minutes long and it's part 1 of a planned 10 part documentary exploring how atheism is expressed by believers and non-believers around the world. 

Hence the topic, it's going to be interesting to dive into it. Have a good weekend, I look forward to reading people's contributions  .

Do you have source for your numbers above, they certainly seem way out of line?

[+Link of Hyrule]

32 minutes ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

 

Do you have source for your numbers above, they certainly seem way out of line?

I was quoting the video, but I do believe they were using this source, it was a Report put out by the University of Kent as part of an "Understanding Unbelief" study in 2019. To quote page 15:

Quote

As can be seen above, in none of our six countries surveyed does the percentage of unbelievers who qualify as naturalists approach 50%. Even among American atheists, the most naturalistic group across our surveyed countries, only a third seem to have a wholly naturalistic world view. Among Chinese atheists meanwhile, fewer than one in ten does.

1/3 of Americans = 33% (the video cited 35%)

fewer than 1 in 10 Chinese = > 10% (the video cited 8%)

I simply quoted the numbers in reverse - instead of saying 35% of American atheists are naturalistic, I said 65% believe in something supernatural. Instead of 8% of Chinese atheists being naturalist, I said 92% were not naturalists. 

Edited August 3 by Link of Hyrule

[Grim Reaper 6]

12 minutes ago, Link of Hyrule said:

I was quoting the video, but I do believe they were using this source, it was a Report put out by the University of Kent as part of an "Understanding Unbelief" study in 2019. To quote page 15:

1/3 of Americans = 33% (the video cited 35%)

fewer than 1 in 10 Chinese = > 10% (the video cited 8%)

I simply quoted the numbers in reverse - instead of saying 35% of American atheists are naturalistic, I said 65% believe in something supernatural. Instead of 8% of Chinese atheists being naturalist, I said 92% were not naturalists. 

Thanks.

[Piney]

 During McCarthy's hunts many atheist academics joined the Friends Meetings (Quaker) to avoid persecution.

Now they are a part of our sect who practice our lifestyle, yet don't believe in any deity. But we already have a branch who were Thomas Jefferson Deists (Hicksites) so they fit right in. 

 

[Will Due]

 

Is there a difference between non-belief and not having faith? 

If there is non-belief, the question arises, non-belief in which god? The god a person tries to imagine themselves or the god defined by organized religion?

Then there's the question of whether or not a person can have faith in what they on their own perceive or imagine, instead of having faith in a god defined by organized religion.

 

 

Edited August 3 by Will Due

[Essan]

48 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Is there a difference between non-belief and not having faith? 

If there is non-belief, the question arises, non-belief in which god? The god a person tries to imagine themselves or the god defined by organized religion?

Then there's the question of whether or not a person can have faith in what they on their own perceive or imagine, instead of having faith in a god defined by organized religion.

 

 

All people have non belief in most gods     

The only difference between a Christian, for example, and an Atheist, is that the former has non belief in 200* gods and the latter in 201 gods.


* I forget how many gods there are, but the exact figure isn't really relevant

[psyche101]

On 8/3/2024 at 12:58 PM, Dejarma said:

To me Atheism is the notion of god/s & a higher power being totally & utterly bloody ridiculous! 

there are no grey areas IMO... you either believe in god/s, a higher power of some sort or you don't😉

It's overthinking atheism.

Richard Dawkins already offer a simplified seven step atheist scale years ago defining different levels of atheism. 

 

https://people.bu.edu/wwildman/atheo/reviews/review_dawkins01.htm#:~:text=On a scale of 1,not there” (73).

 

On a scale of 1 to 7, where 1 is certitude that God exists and 7 is certitude that God does not exist, Dawkins rates himself a 6, leaning toward 7: “I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there” (73). He suggests, therefore, that a theory of the universe without God is preferable to the theory of a universe with a God.

 

It's not actually very complex. 

[Guyver]

45 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

It's overthinking atheism.

Richard Dawkins already offer a simplified seven step atheist scale years ago defining different levels of atheism. 

 

https://people.bu.edu/wwildman/atheo/reviews/review_dawkins01.htm#:~:text=On a scale of 1,not there” (73).

 

On a scale of 1 to 7, where 1 is certitude that God exists and 7 is certitude that God does not exist, Dawkins rates himself a 6, leaning toward 7: “I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there” (73). He suggests, therefore, that a theory of the universe without God is preferable to the theory of a universe with a God.

 

It's not actually very complex. 

Well done sir.

[+Link of Hyrule]

2 hours ago, psyche101 said:

It's overthinking atheism.

Richard Dawkins already offer a simplified seven step atheist scale years ago defining different levels of atheism. 

 

https://people.bu.edu/wwildman/atheo/reviews/review_dawkins01.htm#:~:text=On a scale of 1,not there” (73).

 

On a scale of 1 to 7, where 1 is certitude that God exists and 7 is certitude that God does not exist, Dawkins rates himself a 6, leaning toward 7: “I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there” (73). He suggests, therefore, that a theory of the universe without God is preferable to the theory of a universe with a God.

 

It's not actually very complex. 

The thread is called "atheism - a  DEEP DIVE". If you want to simplify it to 7 extremely broad categories with Dawkins, I'm sure there's nothing wrong with that.  If you're interested in a deeper study of atheism, I'm looking forward to taking the journey with you ("you" being anyone who enjoys this topic,  not you specifically). Don't dismiss the video just because you don't like me.  The youtuber "ReligionForBreakfast" has a very respected channel in the educational sphere of YouTube. I still have an interest in religion and spirituality even though I'm not religious and don't often post in this forum.

Thanks for your input

 

Edited August 4 by Link of Hyrule

[Will Due]

 

Okay, a deep dive. Let's start with this.

What is the legacy of this world? You may not agree with me, but I think the common thread is that for a very long time, certain people for certain reasons have deliberately and knowingly twisted truth into something it isn't.

In that regard, atheism isn't the lack of belief. It's the lack of the knowledge of what's actually true. 

 

 

[Grim Reaper 6]

19 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Okay, a deep dive. Let's start with this.

What is the legacy of this world? You may not agree with me, but I think the common thread is that for a very long time, certain people for certain reasons have deliberately and knowingly twisted truth into something it isn't.

In that regard, atheism isn't the lack of belief. It's the lack of the knowledge of what's actually true. 

 

 

I totally agree that certain individuals have twisted the truth, take Christianity for example the base of the religion is sound. However, for reasons unknown the pivotal character Jesus Christ has been portrayed in many different roles while visiting places completely unknown during his life time.

In fact some of Christianity’s roles are almost cult like in the manner in which they deviate from the mainstream religious teachings and practices.

Also I disagree that atheism is based upon a lack of understanding and knowledge, I believe that certain religions are rejected because the premise of the teachings are difficult if not impossible to believe in the first place.

JIMHO

Edited August 4 by Grim Reaper 6

[XenoFish]

9 hours ago, Link of Hyrule said:

a deeper study of atheism

Is there one really? Seems to be simple, a theist believes, an agnostic is uncertain, and an atheist doesn't believe at all. Anything outside of the god question has no real relation to atheism as far as I've been able to tell. 

[zep73]

In my opinion atheism is to not believe in anything divine. That does not necessarily include creationism. I mean, we have the technology to create new species and resurrect extinc ones. That's creation! We are also on the verge of creating artificial consciousness. That's creation too!

[jmccr8]

5 hours ago, Will Due said:

What is the legacy of this world? You may not agree with me, but I think the common thread is that for a very long time, certain people for certain reasons have deliberately and knowingly twisted truth into something it isn't

HI Will

One could say the same about certain believers twisting the bible to say something it doesn't 

[cormac mac airt]

5 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

I totally agree that certain individuals have twisted the truth, take Christianity for example the base of the religion is sound. However, for reasons unknown the pivotal character Jesus Christ has been portrayed in many different roles while visiting places completely unknown during his life time.

In fact some of Christianity’s roles are almost cult like in the manner in which they deviate from the mainstream religious teachings and practices.

Also I disagree that atheism is based upon a lack of understanding and knowledge, I believe that certain religions are rejected because the premise of the teachings are difficult if not impossible to believe in the first place.

JIMHO

Sound? So putting words into the mouth of a dead man none of the writers even knew is sound? I don't think so. 

cormac

[Grim Reaper 6]

4 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

Sound? So putting words into the mouth of a dead man none of the writers even knew is sound? I don't think so. 

cormac

I think that I wasn’t clear, when I said sound I meant excepted by the Christian majority. 

[cormac mac airt]

3 minutes ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

I think that I wasn’t clear, when I said sound I meant excepted by the Christian majority. 

Now that I could agree with but it’s sad when one realizes that promoting BS is considered acceptable behavior in Christianity. 
 

cormac

[Grim Reaper 6]

42 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Now that I could agree with but it’s sad when one realizes that promoting BS is considered acceptable behavior in Christianity. 
 

cormac

I totally agree, however many people need additional support in life so they turn to religious beliefs. Now, there is nothing wrong with that if it gives them comfort. What is wrong is when these people cross the line to religious fundamentalism and, try to force their values and beliefs upon others in my opinion that’s unacceptable.

[cormac mac airt]

2 minutes ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

I totally agree, however many people need additional support in life so they turn to religious beliefs. Now, there is nothing wrong with that if it gives them comfort. What is wrong is when these people cross the line to religious fundamentalism and, try to force their values and beliefs upon others in my opinion that’s unacceptable.

Keeping their personal beliefs personal would be best, especially if they’re the judgemental type, but many can’t manage to do that unfortunately. 

cormac