Atheism - A deep dive

[Will Due]

 

More of a deep dive:

"Materialism denies God, secularism simply ignores him; at least that was the earlier attitude. More recently, secularism has assumed a more militant attitude, assuming to take the place of the religion whose totalitarian bondage it onetime resisted. Twentieth-century secularism tends to affirm that man does not need God. But beware! this godless philosophy of human society will lead only to unrest, animosity, unhappiness, war, and world-wide disaster."

Source

 

 

[Grim Reaper 6]

1 minute ago, cormac mac airt said:

Keeping their personal beliefs personal would be best, especially if they’re the judgemental type, but many can’t manage to do that unfortunately. 

cormac

I agree, but that’s the nature of the beast because according to Christian doctrine they are supposed to spread the word. Unfortunately, some take this to extremes which only serves to distract from their goal because it fosters rejection and not interest.

[cormac mac airt]

1 minute ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

I agree, but that’s the nature of the beast because according to Christian doctrine they are supposed to spread the word. Unfortunately, some take this to extremes which only serves to distract from their goal because it fosters rejection and not interest.

Which gets back to Christianity’s greatest problem IMO, namely how (and why) is Christianity supposed to spread the word of a religion that it’s very founder, Jesus, has said will essentially be irrelevant to a humanity that won’t even exist as such after His contemporary generation? 
 

I’m not sure it can get any more screwed up than that. 
 

cormac

[Grim Reaper 6]

Just now, cormac mac airt said:

Which gets back to Christianity’s greatest problem IMO, namely how (and why) is Christianity supposed to spread the word of a religion that it’s very founder, Jesus, has said will essentially be irrelevant to a humanity that won’t even exist as such after His contemporary generation? 
 

I’m not sure it can get any more screwed up than that. 
 

cormac

I wasn’t aware of some of the points you made, but I agree with you just the same. 

[Grim Reaper 6]

13 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Which gets back to Christianity’s greatest problem IMO, namely how (and why) is Christianity supposed to spread the word of a religion that it’s very founder, Jesus, has said will essentially be irrelevant to a humanity that won’t even exist as such after His contemporary generation? 
 

I’m not sure it can get any more screwed up than that. 
 

cormac

It’s kind like Buddhism, while I love the philosophy of its teachings I am unable to understand or comprehend the concept of reincarnation. But, overall I believe the basic tenets of the philosophy is a good teaching method in which to conduct oneself but man it’s very hard to adhere to all the principles. Yet, I will continue to try because I am striving to have a better way to treat my fellow man, and to be a better person myself. The thing I love about the philosophy is that there is no omnipotent deities to save you, everything is placed upon the individual and the philosophy gives one the tools to better themselves without Devine intervention!

[+Link of Hyrule]

14 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

I totally agree that certain individuals have twisted the truth, take Christianity for example the base of the religion is sound. However, for reasons unknown the pivotal character Jesus Christ has been portrayed in many different roles while visiting places completely unknown during his life time.

In fact some of Christianity’s roles are almost cult like in the manner in which they deviate from the mainstream religious teachings and practices.

Also I disagree that atheism is based upon a lack of understanding and knowledge, I believe that certain religions are rejected because the premise of the teachings are difficult if not impossible to believe in the first place.

JIMHO

Hi Reaper, I have an interest in Christianity and have studied it extensively, can you clarify what you mean by "Jesus Christ has been portrayed in many different roles while visiting places completely unknown during his life time"? Preferably with sources, if you can. 

I am uncertain what you mean by Christianity almost being "cult like", the word cult in religions terms literally just means "not the mainstream" (from Britannica - "a small religious group that is not part of the larger and more accepted religion"). When Christianity first began, it was an offshoot of Judaism, and could easily be called "a small religious group that is not part of the larger and more accepted religion".  Even today some branches of Christianity are more cult-like than others (I grew up in a cult). I guess I'm trying to say I could agree with you depending on what you are referring to as cult-like. 

Thanks for your time, 

~ Regards, 

[jmccr8]

On 8/2/2024 at 6:51 PM, Link of Hyrule said:

This video is part 1 in an intended 10 part video essay collection on atheism. I've been watching this channel for some time, and have been really impressed by this person's academic approach to all things religious (or in this case, non-religious). 
The video explores a broad overview of what atheism is and suggests that the definition might be more complex than "lack of belief in god or a creator". 

Feel free to discuss anything of interest about atheism or the video. I was particularly interested in how the video explored atheism in philosophies that believe in other supernatural things like spirits or ghosts or reincarnation, and in how there are many atheist groups in America and around the world that now meet on Sundays as part of a regular non-worship event, thus blurring the lines between religion and atheism.

Worth a watch for anyone interested  

~ Regards, Link of Hyrule

HI Link

Not much of a deep dive for me as I can neither prove if there is or isn't a god. I have a simplistic construct where god is a word to describe our ability to think and create. I have more physical evidence for that then there is for any god so just go with if there is physical evidence found I will reconsider it. For me this is the only place I ever have these discussions as most of my interactions are business in one way or another and making money and things happen. 

[+Link of Hyrule]

10 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Is there one really? Seems to be simple, a theist believes, an agnostic is uncertain, and an atheist doesn't believe at all. Anything outside of the god question has no real relation to atheism as far as I've been able to tell. 

There's a 20 minute video at the start of this thread, and that's part 1 in an intended 10-part video series. I'll let you know if I learn something that is more detailed than your summary here. 

[eight bits]

6 hours ago, Link of Hyrule said:

There's a 20 minute video at the start of this thread, and that's part 1 in an intended 10-part video series. I'll let you know if I learn something that is more detailed than your summary here. 

If your investigation turns up something, then that will be great. In the meantime, though, I think a "deep dive" into atheism comes across like a deep dive into bigfoot disbelief.

There really doesn't seem to be more to it than "I believe bigfoot is just a story that some other people say they do believe."

[Grim Reaper 6]

8 hours ago, Link of Hyrule said:

Hi Reaper, I have an interest in Christianity and have studied it extensively, can you clarify what you mean by "Jesus Christ has been portrayed in many different roles while visiting places completely unknown during his life time"? Preferably with sources, if you can.

Sources are not necessary, some people believe that Jesus is an alien and comes from outer space. Then you have the Mormons who believe that Jesus was present in the Americas. Then, you have a young Jesus who is living on an island off the UK this is what I meant about how Christ is portrayed and visiting places completely unknown during his life time.

8 hours ago, Link of Hyrule said:

I am uncertain what you mean by Christianity almost being "cult like", the word cult in religions terms literally just means "not the mainstream" (from Britannica - "a small religious group that is not part of the larger and more accepted religion"). When Christianity first began, it was an offshoot of Judaism, and could easily be called "a small religious group that is not part of the larger and more accepted religion".  Even today some branches of Christianity are more cult-like than others (I grew up in a cult). I guess I'm trying to say I could agree with you depending on what you are referring to as cult-like.

When I used the word Cult like, I meant just that and I am not applying the meaning you choose to use above. No Christianity was never truly an off shoot of Judaism, the entire religion was centered and built around one man and the Jews never excepted him as the messiah that is why Jesus was not mentioned in the Old Testament. If you grew up in a Cult then you should understand how some Christian religious sect’s are actually nothing but Cults hiding behind the words Jesus Christ and Christianity ✝️ 

8 hours ago, Link of Hyrule said:

Thanks for your time, 

~ Regards, 

 

[Grim Reaper 6]

1 hour ago, eight bits said:

If your investigation turns up something, then that will be great. In the meantime, though, I think a "deep dive" into atheism comes across like a deep dive into bigfoot disbelief.

There really doesn't seem to be more to it than "I believe bigfoot is just a story that some other people say they do believe."

That is my take on this thread also, so I will exit stage right!

Peace my friend.

[Piney]

12 minutes ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

Sources are not necessary, some people believe that Jesus is an alien and comes from outer space. Then you have the Mormons who believe that Jesus was present in the Americas. Then, you have a young Jesus who is living on an island off the UK this is what I meant about how Christ is portrayed and visiting places completely unknown during his life time.

When I used the word Cult like, I meant just that and I am not applying the meaning you choose to use above. No Christianity was never truly an off shoot of Judaism, the entire religion was centered and built around one man and the Jews never excepted him as the messiah that is why Jesus was not mentioned in the Old Testament. If you grew up in a Cult then you should understand how some Christian religious sect’s are actually nothing but Cults hiding behind the words Jesus Christ and Christianity ✝️ 

 

 Nope, Christianity was a Jewish sect and many Jews consider Quakers a Jewish sect because we don't accept the Trinity or even his divinity. 

 Before the Catholic church went "government sponsored" there were probably as many sects of Christianity as there is today and some of them were just as insane as modern cults. 

 

[Grim Reaper 6]

Just now, Piney said:

 Nope, Christianity was a Jewish sect and many Jews consider Quakers a Jewish sect because we don't accept the Trinity or even his divinity.

Your right it was Jewish sect, but as far Quakers are concerned I learned something that I was not aware of before.

Just now, Piney said:

 Before the Catholic church went "government sponsored" there were probably as many sects of Christianity as there is today and some of them were just as insane as modern cults. 

 

Some the sects of Christianity are as insane as modern cults even today.

[XenoFish]

2 hours ago, Piney said:

 Nope, Christianity was a Jewish sect and many Jews consider Quakers a Jewish sect because we don't accept the Trinity or even his divinity. 

 Before the Catholic church went "government sponsored" there were probably as many sects of Christianity as there is today and some of them were just as insane as modern cults. 

 

If you remove all the theatrics from the gospels, you're left with a very basic and streamlined faith. 

[eight bits]

3 hours ago, Piney said:

 Nope, Christianity was a Jewish sect and many Jews consider Quakers a Jewish sect because we don't accept the Trinity or even his divinity. 

I took Grim's statement a little differently than that:

3 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

No Christianity was never truly an off shoot of Judaism, the entire religion was centered and built around one man and the Jews never excepted him as the messiah that is why Jesus was not mentioned in the Old Testament. 

The first "Christians" were Jews, but how those first ones organized themselves in Jerusalem is really lost to us. In particular, the first "shooting off" we hear about is Paul's various bright ideas, and he complains that he's having little luck selling those to other Jews; and if it weren't for the goyim he'd be out of business. Meanwhile, back in Jerusalem, Jews following a particular rabbi is not all that special. That doesn't cut them off from the People, at least not necessarily.

Paul is not simply following a rabbi. Indeed his "entire religion was centered and built around one man," who was not generally accepted by other Jews as the anointed figure (or one of the figures) who crops up in the Hebrew Bible. Paul's man is no rabbi (or not anymore) - he's a frackin' Deputy God receiving worship in his own right.

Anyway, I took Grim along those lines, and not as denying the Jewishness of the people who got things rolling.

ETA: From @XenoFish

Quote

If you remove all the theatrics from the gospels, you're left with a very basic and streamlined faith. 

Yes, like the Jefferson Bible, or even Frank Sinatra's Playboy interview, pretty much trimming it all back to the Sermon on the Mount.

Edited August 5 by eight bits

[Antigonos]

3 hours ago, Piney said:

 

 Before the Catholic church went "government sponsored" there were probably as many sects of Christianity as there is today and some of them were just as insane as modern cults. 

 

Alexandria in late antiquity was crawling  with them.

[Grim Reaper 6]

9 minutes ago, eight bits said:

I took Grim's statement a little differently than that:

The first "Christians" were Jews, but how those first ones organized themselves in Jerusalem is really lost to us. In particular, the first "shooting off" we hear about is Paul's various bright ideas, and he complains that he's having little luck selling those to other Jews; and if it weren't for the goyim he'd be out of business. Meanwhile, back in Jerusalem, Jews following a particular rabbi is not all that special. That doesn't cut them off from the People, at least not necessarily.

Paul is not simply following a rabbi. Indeed his "entire religion was centered and built around one man," who was not generally accepted by other Jews as the anointed figure (or one of the figures) who crops up in the Hebrew Bible. Paul's man is no rabbi (or not anymore) - he's a frackin' Deputy God receiving worship in his own right.

Anyway, I took Grim along those lines, and not as denying the Jewishness of the people who got things rolling.

Thanks and you are right I wasn’t denying the Jewishness of the people at all. Thanks for the explanation above, it clears a lot up for me and I appreciate you thoughts on the subject.

9 minutes ago, eight bits said:

ETA: From @XenoFish

Yes, like the Jefferson Bible, or even Frank Sinatra's Playboy interview, pretty much trimming it all back to the Sermon on the Mount.

 

[XenoFish]

20 minutes ago, eight bits said:

Yes, like the Jefferson Bible, or even Frank Sinatra's Playboy interview, pretty much trimming it all back to the Sermon on the Mount.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 5-7&version=NIV

[Piney]

3 hours ago, XenoFish said:

If you remove all the theatrics from the gospels, you're left with a very basic and streamlined faith. 

Paul's right. You should take a peek at Jefferson's Bible. One of my ancestors wanted to print it as a Hicksite Quaker Bible. 

[XenoFish]

20 minutes ago, Piney said:

Paul's right. You should take a peek at Jefferson's Bible. One of my ancestors wanted to print it as a Hicksite Quaker Bible. 

I will if I find the time. My cousin needs a heart transplant, so I'll a bit chaotic here. 

[jmccr8]

20 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

More of a deep dive:

"Materialism denies God, secularism simply ignores him; at least that was the earlier attitude. More recently, secularism has assumed a more militant attitude, assuming to take the place of the religion whose totalitarian bondage it onetime resisted. Twentieth-century secularism tends to affirm that man does not need God. But beware! this godless philosophy of human society will lead only to unrest, animosity, unhappiness, war, and world-wide disaster."

Source

 

 

HI Will

Not much of a deep dive, many atheists were at one time believers so they would tend to have a broader understanding than your simplistic belly flop in the pool. Might want to take the life jacket off if you want to explore the depths 

[XenoFish]

2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

so It's a bit chaotic here. 

(I can not write at all lately...)

[XenoFish]

https://thejeffersonbible.com/index.php/tot15/

Guess I'll give it a read when I have more time.

[beyondism]

On 8/4/2024 at 11:02 PM, Will Due said:

Twentieth-century secularism tends to affirm that man does not need God. But beware! this godless philosophy of human society will lead only to unrest, animosity, unhappiness, war, and world-wide disaster."

So no different from the religious society then which included all those things.

I accept an atheistic explanation for the origin of both the universe and sentience. 

[beyondism]

Also atheism has no allegiance to any political ideology despite its relevance to the materialism which emerged out of the French revolution.