Giza Diagonal and The Great Giza Circle

[Trelane]

Man, they get real close to that whole "Earth inverting" thing don't they? Then when they think about it and realize how insane it sounds, they back away from that ledge.😂

Edited September 6 by Trelane

[Scott Creighton]

21 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

Actually, you side with Hancock's very bad research.

It was a belief held by only a handful of people.  

My work is built on Bauval's research, not Hancock's.

And if you think the greater the number of people that believe in something equates to it being true, then you're just plain deluding yourself. Truth transcends a show of hands.

SC 

Edited September 6 by Scott Creighton

[Kenemet]

48 minutes ago, Antigonos said:

The timing of which is interesting because the rise of Alexandria coincided with the importance of Heliopolis waning to the point that the Ptolemies were taking monuments from there to decorate their new capital. Some of which I believe Franck Goddio found offshore. Why make it the capital of a nome at that point? An interesting tidbit to look into for myself.

There's all sorts of things in that rabbit hole to pursue, including the possibility that the pyramids were oriented to the sunrise of a specific day.  This type of orientation has been found elsewhere (paper on this with respect to Heliopolitan temple is here: https://hal.science/hal-03381297/file/Article for the ASAE on Heliopolis 3 nov. 2017.pdf) -- something that I think is very plausible, given the gradual shift in religious expression in the Old Kingdom to promote Ra to the head of the pantheon and the references to the "Great Ennead" and other Enneads during the 5th and 6th dynasties.

Given the location (Lower Egypt) and the time, it makes more sense to find the pyramids associated with Heliopolis and the cult of Atum-Ra.

[Trelane]

10 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

My work is built on Bauval's research, not Hancock's.

And if you think the greater the number of people that believe in something equates to it being true, then you're just plain deluding yourself. Truth transcends a show of hands.

SC 

It also transcends false assumptions and false information.

[Scott Creighton]

4 minutes ago, Trelane said:

It also transcends false assumptions and false information.

Indeed it does. Now go check my bio logline.

SC

[Trelane]

11 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

Indeed it does. Now go check my bio logline.

SC

Why? There is nothing of relevance or importance tot the  "diagonal theory". 

The  big question all of this begs is, so what? Why would the ancient Egyptians go through all of this grand plan without proving the "why?" More importantly what was the purpose? What does it serve and why is it not described in texts outside of what modern day readers interpret? Seems way too convenient. Even so, there's no "so what" after the Jenga blocks of this theory get stacked.

Fanciful conjecture. That's all I see.

[Scott Creighton]

1.       Is there any ancient text that directly associates the construction of the Giza pyramids with an Earth inversion event?

           YES, there is.

2.       Is there any physical evidence within the monuments that could reasonably be interpreted as demonstrating an Earth inversion event?

          YES, there are several.

• According to archaeoastronomer, Dr Ed Krupp (a long-time critic of Bauval’s OCT), the cardinal orientation of the Giza pyramids is showing them upside-down. Krupp says that for a proper correlation to occur between the Gizamids and the Belts stars, then we would either have to turn the Belt stars on their head or turn the Earth on its head.
• The star-shafts can easily be interpreted as demonstrating Orion’s Belt inverting i.e. the Earth inverting.
• The 2 triads of so-called ‘Queen’s Pyramids’ can also easily be interpreted as showing Orion’s Belt inverting i.e. the Earth inverting.

3.       Are there any other ancient Egyptian texts that speak of such an inversion event in ancient times?

          YES, there are several.

4.       Are there any texts from other cultures/sources around the world that speak of an Earth inversion event (or can reasonably be interpreted as such) in ancient times?

          YES, there are many.

5.       Is there any astronomical evidence that depicts the skies of Egypt in a reversed fashion in ancient times?

           Again, YES.

6.       Is there any other scientific evidence that suggests an Earth inversion in our ancient past? YES, there is (although science twists itself into contortions trying to explain it away as being nothing more than simple climate change or whatever).

But yeah, it’s all just “fanciful”. 

SC

Edited September 6 by Scott Creighton

[Thanos5150]

22 hours ago, Kenemet said:

There's all sorts of things in that rabbit hole to pursue, including the possibility that the pyramids were oriented to the sunrise of a specific day.  This type of orientation has been found elsewhere (paper on this with respect to Heliopolitan temple is here: https://hal.science/hal-03381297/file/Article for the ASAE on Heliopolis 3 nov. 2017.pdf) -- something that I think is very plausible, given the gradual shift in religious expression in the Old Kingdom to promote Ra to the head of the pantheon and the references to the "Great Ennead" and other Enneads during the 5th and 6th dynasties.

Given the location (Lower Egypt) and the time, it makes more sense to find the pyramids associated with Heliopolis and the cult of Atum-Ra.

What the what....?

[Windowpane]

11 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

What the what....?

Well ... This isn't an area I know much about.  However, I found this paper, which looks as if it might be of interest to this thread:

 

Quote

Abstract: The article reassesses and re-discusses
the available archaeological and textual evidence
of the city of Heliopolis, in the attempt to clarify
its role in the historical evolution of the solar cult
and religion in third millennium BC Old Kingdom
Egypt. By connecting archaeological evidence
with landscape phenomenology as well as private
sources with royal texts and decorative material,
the paper emphasises how certain Egyptological
assumptions, usually taken for granted, are far
from being proven. It eventually shows that the
key of the discussion has to be searched for in the
study of the relationship between Atum and Re.

HELIOPOLIS AND THE SOLAR CULT IN THE THIRD MILLENNIUM BC

Massimiliano Nuzzolo, Jaromír Krejčí

Ägypten und Levante / Egypt and the Levant, Vol. 27 (2017), pp. 357-380 (24 pages)

https://www.jstor.org/stable/26524908

 

[Windowpane]

21 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

 #132 

1.       Is there any ancient text that directly associates the construction of the Giza pyramids with an Earth inversion event?

           YES, there is.

...

SC (quoting Herodotus {2:142), from  #1212):

Quote

"In this time they [the AE priests] said that the sun had moved four times from his accustomed place of rising, and where he now sets he had thence twice had his rising, and in the place from whence he now rises he had twice had his setting. . ."

SC (still from  #1212)::

Quote

Which you and the other group-thinkers thoroughly reject. You reject things that Herodotus actually did write in favour of things he didn’t actually write. Away and give your head a wobble.

(Strange: I thought it was the planet that was supposed to be wobbling ... )

Oddly, you omitted the remainder of Herodotus' sentence:

Quote

... yet Egypt at these times underwent no change, either in the produce of the river and the land, or in the matter of sickness and death.

But I thought that all these planet-inversions and pole-flipping were necessarily accompanied by all sorts of calamities?  What happened to the Egyptian ones?

[Thanos5150]

30 minutes ago, Windowpane said:

Well ... This isn't an area I know much about.  However, I found this paper, which looks as if it might be of interest to this thread:

Thank you. I've read it actually which unfortunately isn't relevant to what Kenemet replied to. My rhetorical confusion is over what does anything in Kenemet's response have to to with what Tony was talking about? Replies in order:

Kenemet:

Heliopolis (Iunu) was the capital city during the Old Kingdom and had the most famous temple (Per Aat) for the solar cult (Atum/Ra/Horus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliopolis_(ancient_Egypt))

Thanos:

Good grief. No it was not the capital city during the Old Kingdom, or ever, which of course was Memphis and before that Thinis in the early Dynastic Period. 

And as expected your source, Wikipedia, once again does not say what you claim it does but rather: 

Heliopolis (Jwnw, Iunu; Ancient Egyptian: 𓉺𓏌𓊖, romanized: jwnw, lit. 'the Pillars'; Coptic: ⲱⲛ; Greek: Ἡλιούπολις, romanized: Hēlioúpοlis, lit. 'City of the Sun') was a major city of ancient Egypt. It was the capital of the 13th or Heliopolite Nome of Lower Egypt and a major religious centre. 

And please don't tell us this is what you meant. So not only does it not tell us Heliopolis was the capital of Egypt in the OK or ever but only that it was the capital of the 13th nome and makes no mention of this occurring during the OK. Which makes sense as there are no attestations of a 13th nome until the late 5th Dynasty and Heliopolis was never acknowledged as the "capital" of it until the Ptolemaic Period. [emphasis mine]   

Antigonos:

The timing of which is interesting because the rise of Alexandria coincided with the importance of Heliopolis waning to the point that the Ptolemies were taking monuments from there to decorate their new capital. Some of which I believe Franck Goddio found offshore. Why make it the capital of a nome at that point? An interesting tidbit to look into for myself.

Kenemet: 

There's all sorts of things in that rabbit hole to pursue, including the possibility that the pyramids were oriented to the sunrise of a specific day.  This type of orientation has been found elsewhere (paper on this with respect to Heliopolitan temple is here: https://hal.science/hal-03381297/file/Article for the ASAE on Heliopolis 3 nov. 2017.pdf) -- something that I think is very plausible, given the gradual shift in religious expression in the Old Kingdom to promote Ra to the head of the pantheon and the references to the "Great Ennead" and other Enneads during the 5th and 6th dynasties.

Given the location (Lower Egypt) and the time, it makes more sense to find the pyramids associated with Heliopolis and the cult of Atum-Ra.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Tony is talking about Heliopolis as a capital of the 13th nome in the Ptolemaic Period which Kenemet's response is oblivious to.  

 

Edited September 7 by Thanos5150

[Stokke]

On 9/6/2024 at 6:31 PM, Trelane said:

Man, they get real close to that whole "Earth inverting" thing don't they? Then when they think about it and realize how insane it sounds, they back away from that ledge.😂

They who?

Apart from Creighton, who subscribe to the "Earth inverting" in this thread?

[Thanos5150]

22 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

1.       Is there any ancient text that directly associates the construction of the Giza pyramids with an Earth inversion event?

           YES, there is.

2.       Is there any physical evidence within the monuments that could reasonably be interpreted as demonstrating an Earth inversion event?

          YES, there are several.

• According to archaeoastronomer, Dr Ed Krupp (a long-time critic of Bauval’s OCT), the cardinal orientation of the Giza pyramids is showing them upside-down. Krupp says that for a proper correlation to occur between the Gizamids and the Belts stars, then we would either have to turn the Belt stars on their head or turn the Earth on its head.
• The star-shafts can easily be interpreted as demonstrating Orion’s Belt inverting i.e. the Earth inverting.
• The 2 triads of so-called ‘Queen’s Pyramids’ can also easily be interpreted as showing Orion’s Belt inverting i.e. the Earth inverting.

3.       Are there any other ancient Egyptian texts that speak of such an inversion event in ancient times?

          YES, there are several.

4.       Are there any texts from other cultures/sources around the world that speak of an Earth inversion event (or can reasonably be interpreted as such) in ancient times?

          YES, there are many.

5.       Is there any astronomical evidence that depicts the skies of Egypt in a reversed fashion in ancient times?

           Again, YES.

6.       Is there any other scientific evidence that suggests an Earth inversion in our ancient past? YES, there is (although science twists itself into contortions trying to explain it away as being nothing more than simple climate change or whatever).

But yeah, it’s all just “fanciful”. 

As discussed before, NO to all of it. And "fanciful" is being polite.

For example: HERE

 

 

[Stokke]

14 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

As discussed before, NO to all of it. And "fanciful" is being polite.

Yes, NO to all of it.

But I will reiterate my comments on G3-a:

G3-a is not a "Queens" pyramid. It is a Satellite pyramid. Khafre built a Satellite pyramid half the size of G3-a, and so did Khufu. There is no apparent reason for why Menkaure opted for twice the size - a smaller pyramid, half the size, in the same location, would suffice.

The logical answer is that size mattered. Perhaps Menkaure decided that his "Queens" had to look like Khufu's "Queens". For whatever reason.

That some researchers have taken this "reason" to the extreme, should not dissuade us from pondering what this reason really is.

[Scott Creighton]

58 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

As discussed before, NO to all of it. And "fanciful" is being polite.

For example: HERE

Well Lee - once again we shall simply have to disagree.

IMO, there are simply too many cultures from all over the world that speak of a catastrophic Earth inversion event having occured in remote antiquity. You are basically saying these cultures were all just making up this catastrophe or halucinating. (Talk about robbing people of their cultural history and heritage!)

When so many all over the world speak of the same catastrophic event, we should sit up and bloody well listen. Not arrogantly dismiss what they tell us as if we know better.

"Oh but it's all just myth and legend!"

Is it? Is it really?

SC

Edited September 7 by Scott Creighton

[Kenemet]

On 9/6/2024 at 11:31 AM, Trelane said:

Man, they get real close to that whole "Earth inverting" thing don't they? Then when they think about it and realize how insane it sounds, they back away from that ledge.😂

Sometimes they double down.

Honestly, it's one of the most weirdly absurd bits of malarkey I've seen.  They've invoked mysterious planets, impossibly large comets, etc, etc and use billiard ball physics (the Earth isn't one, in case you were in doubt) to do astrophysics.

And they ignore planetary simulators (there are several) used by astrophysicists because the actual math shows that their implausible idea just doesn't work.  Ever.

[Trelane]

1 hour ago, Scott Creighton said:

"Oh but it's all just myth and legend!"

Is it? Is it really?

SC

Well, yes it is actually.

[Trelane]

2 hours ago, Stokke said:

They who?

Apart from Creighton, who subscribe to the "Earth inverting" in this thread?

I was speaking in more general terms in regard to the topic itself. Not specifically this thread.

But hey, if the shoe fits, lace that sucker up. 

[Stokke]

16 hours ago, Trelane said:

But hey, if the shoe fits, lace that sucker up. 

I really dont get comments like this.

What is the point?

Did I at any point indicate that "the shoe fits"?

Please explain.

[Trelane]

1 hour ago, Stokke said:

I really dont get comments like this.

What is the point?

Did I at any point indicate that "the shoe fits"?

Please explain.

No, I made it clear that it was a general statement and specifically directed at anyone.

 

[Stokke]

30 minutes ago, Trelane said:

No, I made it clear that it was a general statement and specifically directed at anyone.

 

You made a general statement at first, before you made a specific comment.

But ok, neither was directed at me.

Everything ok.

[Thanos5150]

21 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

Well Lee - once again we shall simply have to disagree.

But no one agrees with you Scott the least of which the ancient people.  

Quote

IMO, there are simply too many cultures from all over the world that speak of a catastrophic Earth inversion event having occured in remote antiquity. You are basically saying these cultures were all just making up this catastrophe or halucinating.

No. I, we, and the ancient people are saying you are the one making it up which sorry friend is no different than the rest of your parade of theories which is truly astounding how you got so much right and literally everyone else got it all so wrong and yet still don't believe you. And even if this is what they were saying you of course neglect to inform your readers the context and time in which they are saying it. Hence why I linked this post #536.. Lets quote it:

As we can see all of these instances, regardless of their ambiguity and/or context, except for the DE (Dynastic Egyptian) NK (MK) examples, all date to late BC or early AD times and all are post 500BC. The DE texts refer to civil calamity and do not even include some of the language Velikovsky said they do. According to Scott an "inversion" event took place in 2450BC and yet no one in the world contemporary with this event wrote one word about it or apparently even noticed?

2450BC by accepted dating would have been the beginning of the reign of the 5th Dynasty pharaoh Sahure. Sahure's mortuary temple was a wonder of the ancient world with an estimated 150,000sq/ft of reliefs-yet not one word about the earth flipping over? Huh. If we take just the first half of the 3rd millennium, though closest to this event, there are tens of thousands of Mesopotamian tablets found that not a one so far translated, again, says one word about it. In fact, except for the few DE examples, that are not reffering to this event anyways, no one apparently says anything of the kind until Greek writers in the 5th century 2000yrs later, but after there are several examples of a sort which even those are in allegorical contexts. Hmm.

[edited to correct sentence structure]

Also:

For example the Ebla Tablets, ancient Syria. Over 17,000 tablets found in the Royal Archives dating between c. 2500-2200 BC. Surely at least one has to mention the earth flipping over, no? 

Quote

(Talk about robbing people of their cultural history and heritage!)

Good grief. Straight from the fake news manual. Trying to shame people into believing your nonsense isn't going to change the facts. The only one "robbing people of their cultural history and heritage" is you.

Quote

When so many all over the world speak of the same catastrophic event, we should sit up and bloody well listen. Not arrogantly dismiss what they tell us as if we know better.

Oyyy. First shame now fear. How about just objective facts and logical thought? 

Quote

"Oh but it's all just myth and legend!"

Quote

Is it? Is it really?

The first problem is they aren't even what you are claiming them to be nor are the AP speaking of whatever it is as a real event(s) in the first place    

Edited September 8 by Thanos5150

[Spiros]

On 8/31/2024 at 3:57 PM, Scott Creighton said:

It's a fair question.

G1-d and G2-a never seem to get much of a mention although I do hypothesize a very specific purpose for these in my last book. In fact, it was these two enigmatic pyramids (they have no chambers within or under them) that led me to the Great Giza Circle.

Within the satellite pyramids at Giza we find a sequence of 3 - 1 - 4 (the first 3 digits of pi - see image below).

Now, I am not claiming that the creators of this plan/design deliberately included G1-d and G2-a in order to demonstrate Pi within the monuments. All I am saying with this observation is that it inspired me to think of Giza in terms of a circle, and the most logical circle one could circumscribe around the monuments would be one that is bound by the 3 most outer corners of the Giza pyramid field. When we overlay Orion's Belt over G1 and G3 (as fulcrum), we find G2 centre is slightly off or 'misplaced'. (When construction began, it seems G2 was moved very slightly off-plan for some reason and we can see evidence of this repositioning within the monument itself). When we reposition G2 centre over Al Nilam centre (the original planned position), we find this:

The circumscribed circle's centre lands right on G2 centre, the pyramid's inter-quarter points slot in perfectly with those of G1 and G3 and we find that the sphinx is sitting almost right on the cricle's s edge. (It would take me decades to figure out the purpose of this implied Great Giza Circle).

Anyway - as I have shown elsewhere, the two sets of Queens' can be shown to work as a precessional clock whereby the two triads of so-called Queen's pyramids present the two culmination points (like noon and midnight) of Orion's Belt. This then gives us a stellar timeline of just under 13,000 years between these two culmination markers (i.e. 13,000 years when precession is moving from G3 Queens to G1 Queens, then another 13,000 years when it's moving in the opposite direction - a full precessional cycle of just under 26,000 years).

 

The issue we now have is this: In the above diagram, the intersection point on the timeline marks the time 3100 BCE. But that is only if the precessional motion was moving from G3 queens (minimum culmination) towards G1 queens (maximum culmination). IOW, there can be two dates on the stellar timeline at this (or any) intersection point and we cannot know what that date is without knowning the direction of the precessional time flow:

The G1-d and G2-a satellites may provide the direction of precessional travel that allows us to know the precise time marked on the stellar timeline. Were G1-d placed at the opposite end of the plateau (G3-d), then that could indicate precesional time moving in the opposite direction, thereby giving the alternative time.

Think about it this way.  Imagine you have drawn a line and marked 12 noon at one end of your line and 12 midday at the opposite end.  Someone then places a line at the intersection of your solar timeline. What time have they marked? Well it could be 6pm or 6am depending on the direction of the solar time on your timeline. You need some mechanism to mark the direction of time flow in order to indicate the correct time (6am or 6pm). If someone had drawn another line from the centre of your solar timeline to one of the end points, then you'd know for sure whether the time was 6am or 6pm.

That may represent the purpose of the 2 small satellites at Giza. I do not insist that it is, but in terms of the Giza Stellar Clock hypothesis, it would make perfect sense to somehow mark the flow of precession time.

I know you don't/won't agree with any of this, but I hope (at least within the hypothesis), you understand what I'm getting at. So yeah - a unified design.

SC.

Hello Scott,

 

When considering the orientation and meaning of the satellite pyramids we have to take into account what the cult pyramids represented. Is it possible that the small cult pyramids related in some way to the Great Sphinx? Take a look here:

 

https://the-phaistos-disk.webnode.page/satellite-pyramids/

 

Best Regards

Spiros

[The Puzzler]

 

Did you know the word Giza in Basque means human because I found  that really interesting. 
So why wouldn’t they…

https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/basque-country-guernica-stands-solidarity-gaza

Edited September 9 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

I’ve literally went thru the whole Basque dictionary identifying similarities..