Israel airstrike on Gaza school kills more than 100, Hamas-run media office says

[Grim Reaper 6]

52 minutes ago, and-then said:

The image was provided by the IDF.  It mentions having overhead imagery as well but I think a 2000lb bomb anywhere near a concrete structure like that would have collapsed the building.  The claims being made sound like what Hamas claimed after some very small ordnance was used next to a tent encampment that then burned down.  Hamas and the media never tell the truth about how these things happen.

If you have not seen the images online of the dismembered bodies and bomb damage you should check it out, because it shows a much different picture than the photo you posted my friend. 

[Claira]

1 hour ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

I agree with you, sometimes a more timely strike is necessary. However, under those circumstances a Drone strike would not have been carried out by the US due to collateral damage. In all situations the US will carry out threat assessment and that would be weighed with collateral damage, if collateral damage tips the scale the drone strike option would not have been taken based upon current US rules of engagement (ROE).

Oh really? Then explain why in 1991, US planes bombed a shelter in the Amiriyah neighborhood of Baghdad killing 408 civilians. The bombs were laser precision-guided and the shelter was deliberately targeted. US officials argued the shelter was being used as an alternate command post, and accused the Saddam Hussein regime of deliberately housing civilians in military installations to act as human shields.

[Grim Reaper 6]

1 minute ago, Claira said:

Oh really? Then explain why in 1991, US planes bombed a shelter in the Amiriyah neighborhood of Baghdad killing 408 civilians. The bombs were laser precision-guided and the shelter was deliberately targeted. US officials argued the shelter was being used as an alternate command post, and accused the Saddam Hussein regime of deliberately housing civilians in military installations to act as human shields.

I never said the United States was perfect, like I said in previous posts they are also guilty of war crimes and whether they were intended or not doesn’t really matter. However, those rules of engagement were integrated into the decision making process in 2001 when the use of Drones was being integrated Air Strike Operations. But, even with all the rules in the world in place it still requires a human judgment call to determine the viability of the target based upon collaterals damage. US drone operators and their commanders have been prosecuted under the UCMJ because they violated the Rules of Engagement during combat operations on more than one occasion since these rules were put in place. 

[+and-then]

 

[Claira]

11 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

I never said the United States was perfect, like I said in previous posts they are also guilty of war crimes and whether they were intended or not doesn’t really matter. However, those rules of engagement were integrated into the decision making process in 2001 when the use of Drones was being integrated Air Strike Operations. But, even with all the rules in the world in place it still requires a human judgment call to determine the viability of the target based upon collaterals damage. US drone operators and their commanders have been prosecuted under the UCMJ because they violated the Rules of Engagement during combat operations on more than one occasion since these rules were put in place. 

It's true you never said the US was perfect, yet you've spent the better part of this discussion stating what it would have done differently (and better) in this, and other, similar situations. In one instance you stated the following:

"The US would have not bombed a target when it would cause massive collateral damage, they would have sent in ground troops to minimize civilian casualties. I don’t want Israel to lose this conflict, i just don’t agree with their methods when it comes to conducting combat operations."

You many not agree with Israel's methods, but we've taken more measures to avoid needless civilian harm than the US and every other country that's ever fought an urban war. Don't believe me? Then read what one of your fellow soldiers has to say on the matter. John Spencer served for 25 years as an infantry soldier and two tours in Iraq. He is currently the chair of urban warfare studies at the Modern War Institute at West Point. According to him, Israel has taken precautionary measures even the US did not do during its wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

https://www.newsweek.com/israel-implemented-more-measures-prevent-civilian-casualties-any-other-nation-history-opinion-1865613

[Grim Reaper 6]

2 hours ago, Claira said:

It's true you never said the US was perfect, yet you've spent the better part of this discussion stating what it would have done differently (and better) in this, and other, similar situations. In one instance you stated the following:

"The US would have not bombed a target when it would cause massive collateral damage, they would have sent in ground troops to minimize civilian casualties. I don’t want Israel to lose this conflict, i just don’t agree with their methods when it comes to conducting combat operations."

I stand by my comments, nothing posted changes my feelings about the current situation.

2 hours ago, Claira said:

You many not agree with Israel's methods, but we've taken more measures to avoid needless civilian harm than the US and every other country that's ever fought an urban war. Don't believe me? Then read what one of your fellow soldiers has to say on the matter. John Spencer served for 25 years as an infantry soldier and two tours in Iraq. He is currently the chair of urban warfare studies at the Modern War Institute at West Point. According to him, Israel has taken precautionary measures even the US did not do during its wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

https://www.newsweek.com/israel-implemented-more-measures-prevent-civilian-casualties-any-other-nation-history-opinion-186561 I

I am well aware of Mr. Spencer, and I certainly respect the man, however I disagree with some of his comments, especially his comments on the Major battles in Iraq because I was also there and what I personally witnessed does not correspond with his comments. 

Another major issue I have with his comments is the fact that in some cases they disregard the set Rules of Engagement which are based upon the Geneva Convention and The Hague Conventions. One thing I find interesting is the fact that he speaks very highly of Israel’s methods used in Gaza, but he doesn’t mention the war crimes warrants issued by The Hagues International Criminal Court for members of Israel’s government which states just the opposite of what he is saying.

The Hagues International Criminal Court 

On the basis of evidence collected and examined by my Office, I have reasonable grounds to believe that Benjamin NETANYAHU, the Prime Minister of Israel, and Yoav GALLANT, the Minister of Defence of Israel, bear criminal responsibility for  the following war crimes and crimes against humanity committed on the territory of the State of Palestine (in the Gaza strip) from at least 8 October 2023:

• Starvation of civilians as a method of warfare as a war crime contrary to article 8(2)(b)(xxv) of the Statute;
• Wilfully causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or health contrary to article 8(2)(a)(iii), or cruel treatment as a war crime contrary to article 8(2)(c)(i);
• Wilful killing contrary to article 8(2)(a)(i), or Murder as a war crime contrary to article 8(2)(c)(i);
• Intentionally directing attacks against a civilian population as a war crime contrary to articles 8(2)(b)(i), or 8(2)(e)(i);
• Extermination and/or murder contrary to articles 7(1)(b) and 7(1)(a), including in the context of deaths caused by starvation, as a crime against humanity;
• Persecution as a crime against humanity contrary to article 7(1)(h);
• Other inhumane acts as crimes against humanity contrary to article 7(1)(k)..

https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/statement-icc-prosecutor-karim-aa-khan-kc-applications-arrest-warrants-situation-state

 

Edited August 12 by Grim Reaper 6

[+and-then]

20 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

If you have not seen the images online of the dismembered bodies and bomb damage you should check it out, because it shows a much different picture than the photo you posted my friend. 

I do not believe the reports coming from sources that you seem to trust.  I don't doubt what you say about the images.  It gets down to whether one trusts what Hamas mouthpieces say about anything - and I do not.  I don't dispute that some civilians may have died and I agree that it is a tragedy when it happens but I support Israel doing what they must to finish this war.  By delaying it until they can absolutely guarantee they will not kill a single civilian they tie their own hands and cost the lives of more of their troops.  I never lose sight of the fact that those troops and those falling bombs would not be in Gaza had Hamas not started a war 10 months ago.  

 

[Claira]

8 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

On the basis of evidence collected and examined by my Office, I have reasonable grounds to believe that Benjamin NETANYAHU, the Prime Minister of Israel, and Yoav GALLANT, the Minister of Defence of Israel, bear criminal responsibility for  the following war crimes and crimes against humanity committed on the territory of the State of Palestine (in the Gaza strip) from at least 8 October 2023:

Yeah whatever.

[CrimsonKing]

10 minutes ago, Claira said:

Yeah whatever.

Since Hamas is now letting it be publicly known they are killing and torturing the hostages...

Me personally,I'd level the whole god damned place.

[Claira]

On 8/10/2024 at 5:36 PM, and-then said:

Supposedly, they used at least one 2000lb bomb on this site...

Not one, but three, according to Hamas. I've seen aerial footage of the aftermath and the destruction was minimal with not a crater to be seen. Hamas also claimed they were nowhere near the school and nearby mosque. The IDF, meanwhile, released the names of an additional 12 terrorists killed in the strike, raising the total number to 31.They also added that the strike may have also killed Islamic Jihad's brigade commander for central Gaza.

[+and-then]

9 minutes ago, Claira said:

I've seen aerial footage of the aftermath and the destruction was minimal with not a crater to be seen.

If Grim were just another person sharing opinions - as I am - then it could be understood that he might accept that a 2000lb weapon could cause the limited damage we've seen.  He isn't, and he knows the scope of damage such a weapon causes.  He chooses to believe the reportage that blames the IDF for "war crimes" while claiming to be a supporter of Israel.  

[Claira]

2 minutes ago, CrimsonKing said:

Since Hamas is now letting it be publicly known they are killing and torturing the hostages...

Hamas released videos of the torture to torment the families of the hostages, hoping they would place more pressure on the government to accept a ceasefire deal — one drafted by Hamas, of course.

[Grim Reaper 6]

4 hours ago, and-then said:

I do not believe the reports coming from sources that you seem to trust.  I don't doubt what you say about the images.  It gets down to whether one trusts what Hamas mouthpieces say about anything - and I do not.  I don't dispute that some civilians may have died and I agree that it is a tragedy when it happens but I support Israel doing what they must to finish this war.  By delaying it until they can absolutely guarantee they will not kill a single civilian they tie their own hands and cost the lives of more of their troops.  I never lose sight of the fact that those troops and those falling bombs would not be in Gaza had Hamas not started a war 10 months ago.  

 

I certainly agree with most of what say, the rest is not important to me so basically we agree.

[CrimsonKing]

5 minutes ago, Claira said:

Hamas released videos of the torture to torment the families of the hostages, hoping they would place more pressure on the government to accept a ceasefire deal — one drafted by Hamas, of course.

https://m.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-814452

From earlier today.

[Grim Reaper 6]

34 minutes ago, Claira said:

Yeah whatever.

It’s a fact the warrants were issued May 8, 2024, is it fair I am not certain it is completely but like you I have no say in the matter.

[Claira]

1 minute ago, CrimsonKing said:

https://m.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-814452

From earlier today.

I'm just now catching up had not yet seen that. It's quite upsetting, but thank you for drawing my attention to it.

[Grim Reaper 6]

11 minutes ago, and-then said:

If Grim were just another person sharing opinions - as I am - then it could be understood that he might accept that a 2000lb weapon could cause the limited damage we've seen.  He isn't, and he knows the scope of damage such a weapon causes.  He chooses to believe the reportage that blames the IDF for "war crimes" while claiming to be a supporter of Israel.  

WOW, again you think you have the moral high ground, which none of us do. Because, I don’t agree with you paint me as a bad person simple because we have different opinions. You’re not just another person sharing an opinion any more than I am, your religious beliefs (Christian Zionism) are based upon the fact that Israel is always right and you prove this with every post. Now, unlike you I believe in your right to practice your faith and to have opinions that support it, although your mind set is either you agree with me or you’re completely against my beliefs. But there are no absolutes, others can have different opinions and yet support the cause overall, so basically there is know all or nothing but your also welcome to believe what you choose to. Unlike you, I will not recriminate you for your beliefs or the comments you made above. 

[Grim Reaper 6]

49 minutes ago, and-then said:

If Grim were just another person sharing opinions - as I am - then it could be understood that he might accept that a 2000lb weapon could cause the limited damage we've seen.  He isn't, and he knows the scope of damage such a weapon causes.  He chooses to believe the reportage that blames the IDF for "war crimes" while claiming to be a supporter of Israel.  

Clarification, I have never said I thought 2000 lb bombs were dropped on that School in any of my posts, My comments have been based upon the number of civilian casualties. Frankly I don’t believe that 2000 lb bombs were dropped, based upon photos we can’t share on the forum it look’s like missiles that were fired by an aircraft were used, what type I have no idea.

[+and-then]

9 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

It’s a fact the warrants were issued May 8, 2024, is it fair I am not certain it is completely but like you I have no say in the matter.

Have you noted that the very first allegation - starving Gazans - has never been proven or even supported with evidence?  We were told by global media that Gaza was at the point of famine, several times, yet we never saw any images of widespread hunger, let alone systematic deprivation that would be seen in such a situation.  They've put up images of a couple, literally a COUPLE, of emaciated children and they both look to have serious underlying medical conditions.  If famine were in the land, we'd be seeing scenes like we've all become accustomed to in drought-torn Africa.  Not a single scene like that has been shown by a media complex that never misses any opportunity to attack Israel for any misstep.  That tells me that there ARE NO SUCH IMAGES becuase the allegation of starvation/famine was a blatant lie.

[+and-then]

8 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

Clarification, I have never said I thought 2000 lb bombs were dropped on that School in any of my posts, My comments have been based upon the number of civilian casualties. Frankly I don’t believe that 2000 lb bombs were dropped, based upon photos we can’t share on the forum it look’s like missiles that were fired by an aircraft were used, what type I have no idea.

The IDF has stated they were very low yield, high-precision ordnance designed precisely to avoid such casualties.  They have had a much better record of admitting when they've made mistakes.  Hamas never clarifies and is never called out until irrefutable proof makes its way into the public.  Remember early in the war when we were told - within about 15 minutes - that Israel had destroyed al Khali hospital and killed 500 Palestinians?  Shortly after, we saw/heard evidence from PIJ and Hamas that it was a failed launch of a PIJ rocket that fell short into the parking lot of that hospital.  THAT is what the media does and has continued to do since 10/10 or so.  

[Grim Reaper 6]

2 hours ago, and-then said:

Have you noted that the very first allegation - starving Gazans - has never been proven or even supported with evidence?  We were told by global media that Gaza was at the point of famine, several times, yet we never saw any images of widespread hunger, let alone systematic deprivation that would be seen in such a situation.  They've put up images of a couple, literally a COUPLE, of emaciated children and they both look to have serious underlying medical conditions.  If famine were in the land, we'd be seeing scenes like we've all become accustomed to in drought-torn Africa.  Not a single scene like that has been shown by a media complex that never misses any opportunity to attack Israel for any misstep.  That tells me that there ARE NO SUCH IMAGES becuase the allegation of starvation/famine was a blatant lie.

Maybe it is a blatant lie, and maybe it isn’t. Before the International Criminal Court issues a warrant like this they send in investigators. In this situation one of the investigators was the court’s prosecuting attorney. Unlike you I am not going to speculate, but I will say that list of war crimes seems pretty extensive and extreme. I suppose the real question is will the warrants ever be served, I don’t believe they ever will be.

The way they are served is by a member state that supports the ICC, because the court itself has no police to execute warrant. Once someone is apprehended they are turned over to the ICC where they are placed in pretrial confinement. If after the trial the individual is found guilty they are transferred to ICC prison facilities where they serve the sentence they were given.

[Grim Reaper 6]

2 hours ago, and-then said:

The IDF has stated they were very low yield, high-precision ordnance designed precisely to avoid such casualties.  They have had a much better record of admitting when they've made mistakes.  Hamas never clarifies and is never called out until irrefutable proof makes its way into the public.  Remember early in the war when we were told - within about 15 minutes - that Israel had destroyed al Khali hospital and killed 500 Palestinians?  Shortly after, we saw/heard evidence from PIJ and Hamas that it was a failed launch of a PIJ rocket that fell short into the parking lot of that hospital.  THAT is what the media does and has continued to do since 10/10 or so.  

Like I said I don’t believe that 2000lb bombs were used because there are no craters. Based upon photos I have seen where portions of the buildings were destroyed it appears that precision munitions were used most likely air to ground missiles. 

[+and-then]

19 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

your religious beliefs (Christian Zionism) are based upon the fact that Israel is always right and you prove this with every post.

I support Israel and do not make excuses for it.  Their secular government is as fallible as any other nation and I've acknowledged that.  What I rebel at is the world's habit of constantly holding them to a much higher standard than other western governments and an insanely higher standard than their enemies.  You choose to believe media reports whose basis ALWAYS come from information provided by Hamas.  This is the same Hamas that slaughtered 1200 civilians, nearly all of them unarmed, last October 7th.  I make no apologies - and never will - for supporting Israel's right to be in that land and for killing their enemies who would remove them from it. 

It is not an attack on you to tell the truth about how you approach this conflict.  

[+and-then]

8 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

Like I said I don’t believe that 2000lb bombs were used because there are no craters. Based upon photos I have seen where portions of the buildings were destroyed it appears that precision munitions were used most likely air to ground missiles. 

Then perhaps you could explain the logic of believing that a very small munition, likely under 100lbs, could kill blow apart bodies and kill nearly 100 people?  Ultimately, we will never know the "facts" because as with all other media presentations these days it gets down to what people choose to believe.  There is no source of information trusted by all.  The images I've seen, and I have searched and found some very disturbing scenes of some dead youth, though I've yet to see a female body, still do not prove the death toll Hamas is pushing and could have been the result of those kids being with the men who were targeted.

As I've said, no one is making the claim that NO civilians are being killed in these strikes.  When they die, they do so because of their proximity to men who are fighting the IDF in deadly combat.  Their presence there is either their choice or Hamas' choice.

[Grim Reaper 6]

2 hours ago, and-then said:

I support Israel and do not make excuses for it.  Their secular government is as fallible as any other nation and I've acknowledged that.  What I rebel at is the world's habit of constantly holding them to a much higher standard than other western governments and an insanely higher standard than their enemies.  You choose to believe media reports whose basis ALWAYS come from information provided by Hamas.  This is the same Hamas that slaughtered 1200 civilians, nearly all of them unarmed, last October 7th.  I make no apologies - and never will - for supporting Israel's right to be in that land and for killing their enemies who would remove them from it. 

It is not an attack on you to tell the truth about how you approach this conflict.  

It very simple, I detest needless civilian casualties during war time no matter the country responsible, outside of that I have no problem with Israel and her right to defend herself. As far as media reports are concerned if Israel allowed the media access to this conflict they would not have to use questionable sources. However, they refuse to do this which perpetuates the problems you outlined about go figure!