Why do Palestinians accept Hammas leadership

[Grim Reaper 6]

On 8/10/2024 at 11:58 PM, simplybill said:

Gaza has been self-governing since 2005, when Israel completely withdrew from Gaza, so the word “Apartheid” isn’t applicable to the current situation. 
A wall similar to the one that separates Egypt from Gaza was erected in an attempt to prevent the ongoing suicide bombings and other terrorist acts committed by the Gazans, and the wall will remain, at least until the Gazans form a new government that isn’t dedicated to annihilating the Israelis.

Bill what do you call a walled in / locked down area approximately 25 miles long and 6 miles wide. Which is the most densely populated place on earth, that houses a population of approximately 1.7 million people?

Please don’t say the Gaza Strip.

Edited August 19 by Grim Reaper 6

[Grim Reaper 6]

On 8/12/2024 at 1:46 AM, CrimsonKing said:

Do you or anyone you know in your country believe a new type of governance can ever exist in Gaza without dealing with Iran first?

You make a great point and until Iran has had regime change, Israel will be surrounded by terrorist organizations. Destroy one, and another will come into existence and that has been a fact since the 1980s when Iran began sponsoring global terrorism. In my opinion there can be no peace in the Middle East so long as Iran exists as it is today!

JIMHO

Edited August 19 by Grim Reaper 6

[Claira]

5 hours ago, and-then said:

I hate to be a downer on the topic but if anyone other than the IDF controls that border, Hamas or some newly-named incarnation of the same spirit will rise again in Gaza.

I wouldn't trust anyone other than the IDF controlling that border either.

[+Liquid Gardens]

17 hours ago, Claira said:

Are people still on about this apartheid thing? Very well then. Why not start off the discussion by explaining why you think the ICC/UN definition applies to Israel and I'll be happy to clear up a few things for you.

Here's the definition, from wiki:

Quote

The crime of apartheid is defined by the 2002 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court as inhumane acts of a character similar to other crimes against humanity "committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime".

Which word there don't you think applies?  

[simplybill]

12 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

Bill what do you call a walled in / locked down area approximately 25 miles long and 6 miles wide. Which is the most densely populated place on earth, that houses a population of approximately 1.7 million people?

Please don’t say the Gaza Strip.

The term ‘densely populated’ isn’t an indicator of oppression. Singapore is an example of a very densely populated area that has made amazing progress since its liberation in 1965. 

This quote is from the Wikipedia article “History of Singapore”:

“Singapore became an independent republic on 9 August 1965. By the 1990s, the country had become one of the world's most prosperous nations, with a highly developed free market economy and strong international trading links. It now has the highest per capita gross domestic product in Asia…”

With the amount of foreign aid flowing into Gaza every year since 2005, Gaza should by now be self-sufficient, and perhaps even prosperous. Instead, they’ve squandered their assets on weapons of war.

Regarding the walled in / locked down area: the wall isn’t meant to keep the Gazans walled in. It’s a security measure intended to keep suicide bombers out. 
 

Population Density comparison between Singapore and Gaza:

 

 

Edited August 19 by simplybill

[Claira]

2 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Here's the definition, from wiki:

I did not ask for the ICC definition. I asked that you explain how it applies to Israel.

[simplybill]

1 hour ago, simplybill said:

Regarding the walled in / locked down area: the wall isn’t meant to keep the Gazans walled in. It’s a security measure intended to keep suicide bombers out.

This op-ed was published shortly after 9/11. It helps explain why Israel made the decision to build a security wall to protect the people of Israel from their neighbors.

”I asked him when, and why, he had decided to volunteer for martyrdom. “In the spring of 1993, I began to pester our military leaders to let me do an operation,” he said. “It was around the time of the Oslo accords, and it was quiet, too quiet. I wanted to do an operation that would incite others to do the same. Finally, I was given the green light to leave Gaza for an operation inside Israel.”

”How did you feel when you heard that you’d been selected for martyrdom?” I asked.

”It’s as if a very high, impenetrable wall separated you from Paradise or Hell,” he said. “Allah has promised one or the other to his creatures. So, by pressing the detonator, you can immediately open the door to Paradise—it is the shortest path to Heaven.” 

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2001/11/19/an-arsenal-of-believers

 

[+Liquid Gardens]

4 hours ago, Claira said:

I did not ask for the ICC definition. I asked that you explain how it applies to Israel.

Hokay, well, do they commit 'inhumane acts similar to other crimes against humanity'?  Yes. Is this in 'the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination'?  Sure, although I'd argue to be fair that is only part of the context.  Is it against a 'racial group'?  Arguable, although of course 'race' is pretty much a made-up sociological concept anyway, not a scientific one.  

[Grim Reaper 6]

4 hours ago, simplybill said:

The term ‘densely populated’ isn’t an indicator of oppression. Singapore is an example of a very densely populated area that has made amazing progress since its liberation in 1965. 

This quote is from the Wikipedia article “History of Singapore”:

“Singapore became an independent republic on 9 August 1965. By the 1990s, the country had become one of the world's most prosperous nations, with a highly developed free market economy and strong international trading links. It now has the highest per capita gross domestic product in Asia…”

With the amount of foreign aid flowing into Gaza every year since 2005, Gaza should by now be self-sufficient, and perhaps even prosperous. Instead, they’ve squandered their assets on weapons of war.

Regarding the walled in / locked down area: the wall isn’t meant to keep the Gazans walled in. It’s a security measure intended to keep suicide bombers out.

I do realize what the wall represents and its purpose, however the Gaza Strip is still basically a prison where the strongest inmates rule. Unfortunately, the strongest inmates are Hamas and the other Palestinians have no choice but to either keep their mouths shut, or follow the party line. Whether, it’s meant to keep the Palestinians walled in or not Gaza will never truly be self sufficient because there is no free market trade and as far as possible being prosperous that will never happen so long as Hamas exists my friend.

Peace Bill.

4 hours ago, simplybill said:

 

Population Density comparison between Singapore and Gaza:

 

 

 

[+and-then]

3 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

Gaza will never truly be self sufficient because there is no free market trade and as far as possible being prosperous that will never happen so long as Hamas exists my friend.

True, and it's also true that Hamas could not continue to exist without global funding.

[Grim Reaper 6]

40 minutes ago, and-then said:

True, and it's also true that Hamas could not continue to exist without global funding.

I am aware that they are an Iranian backed terrorist organization, and that Saudi Arabia may also be involved but other than that what do you mean globally?

[+and-then]

48 minutes ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

I am aware that they are an Iranian backed terrorist organization, and that Saudi Arabia may also be involved but other than that what do you mean globally?

Those tunnels had to be paid for.  The level of poverty in Gaza has never improved for the vast majority there even though billion$ have been contributed to that population by America, the EU and a few others.  Those who have been in the decision loop to keep funding Gazans despite knowing it does not get to them, are, IMO culpable for the bloodshed Hamas exacts on the civilians both in Israel and Gaza.  If they simply stopped giving cash and limited their donations to goods like food and clothing, at least it would be more difficult for the Hamas to rebuild what Israel has spent much blood and treasure neutralizing.

[Grim Reaper 6]

1 minute ago, and-then said:

Those tunnels had to be paid for.  The level of poverty in Gaza has never improved for the vast majority there even though billion$ have been contributed to that population by America, the EU and a few others.  Those who have been in the decision loop to keep funding Gazans despite knowing it does not get to them, are, IMO culpable for the bloodshed Hamas exacts on the civilians both in Israel and Gaza.  If they simply stopped giving cash and limited their donations to goods like food and clothing, at least it would be more difficult for the Hamas to rebuild what Israel has spent much blood and treasure neutralizing.

I agree.

[Gromdor]

4 minutes ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

I agree.

Netanyahu paid Hamas....  He wanted them to stay in power to balance the PLA.  It's not even a secret. For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it's blown up in our faces | The Times of Israel

Literal suitcases of money given to Qatar which was then walked across the border to Hamas.

[Grim Reaper 6]

1 hour ago, Gromdor said:

Netanyahu paid Hamas....  He wanted them to stay in power to balance the PLA.  It's not even a secret. For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it's blown up in our faces | The Times of Israel

Literal suitcases of money given to Qatar which was then walked across the border to Hamas.

I am aware of that situation, thanks.

[Gromdor]

2 minutes ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

I am aware of that situation, thanks.

It just boggles my mind that people still stare around glassy eyed and wonder how things like Hamas can exist and thrive when the very forces that claim they are against them are the ones that fund them and takes actions that only spur their recruitment.

(Not directed at you, but the thread in general)

[Grim Reaper 6]

1 minute ago, Gromdor said:

It just boggles my mind that people still stare around glassy eyed and wonder how things like Hamas can exist and thrive when the very forces that claim they are against them are the ones that fund them and takes actions that only spur their recruitment.

(Not directed at you, but the thread in general)

I certainly agree!

[Claira]

6 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Hokay, well, do they commit 'inhumane acts similar to other crimes against humanity'?  Yes. Is this in 'the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination'?  Sure, although I'd argue to be fair that is only part of the context.  Is it against a 'racial group'?  Arguable, although of course 'race' is pretty much a made-up sociological concept anyway, not a scientific one.  

You've still not answered my question. All you've done is repeat that you believe Israel is an apartheid state as per the ICC's definition, without providing evidence to support your statement. What crimes against humanity has Israel committed? What evidence do you have of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination?

Whether a social construct, biological myth, or whatever, race is important in this context. It's important because the Arabs living in Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip are racially identical. Think about that when you formulate your reply.

[CrimsonKing]

9 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

It just boggles my mind that people still stare around glassy eyed and wonder how things like Hamas can exist and thrive when the very forces that claim they are against them are the ones that fund them and takes actions that only spur their recruitment.

(Not directed at you, but the thread in general)

"Every action has a equal and opposite reaction" Newton 

Kinda sounds like how Bin Laden became a thing in the 80's playing proxy wars across the sands...our strategies haven't done much either.

Don't have to be a glassy eyed dumb ass to miss out on facts,that some people don't give a damn about Westernized rules,laws or culture.

Doesn't take a military expert to see... nobody has a ****ing real answer.

Never seen a real one actually put forth on here,if so,go grab your Nobel prize 😆

[+Liquid Gardens]

9 hours ago, Claira said:

What crimes against humanity has Israel committed?

"Forcible transfer of population", to stick with the more palatable examples.  If you'd like some of the gorier stuff, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_violations_against_Palestinians_by_Israel lists some.  There's a separate list of war crimes on wiki if you're interested.

9 hours ago, Claira said:

What evidence do you have of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination?

Which of those words do you have a quibble with?  Domination or oppression?  Institutionalized or systematic?  Before you mention your questions again this is a discussion not a formalized debate, you are capable of answering questions also, it helps in focusing the conversation instead of making me guess what specifically you disagree with.

9 hours ago, Claira said:

It's important because the Arabs living in Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip are racially identical.

Does apartheid require that a government allow one racial group domination over another in all territory it controls?  I didn't see that in the definition.

[Claira]

6 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Which of those words do you have a quibble with?  Domination or oppression?  Institutionalized or systematic?  Before you mention your questions again this is a discussion not a formalized debate, you are capable of answering questions also, it helps in focusing the conversation instead of making me guess what specifically you disagree with.

What I disagree with is your claim that Israel is an apartheid state. You take issue with the fact that I pose questions without answering any of yours, but since you made the claim of apartheid, the onus was on you to provide evidence to support it. That 'evidence' would have formed the basis and focus of our discussion. It took you a while to present me with something to go with — a laundry list of alleged Israeli human rights violation against Palestinians, as if that somehow makes a case for apartheid. It doesn't.

[+DieChecker]

10 hours ago, Claira said:

What I disagree with is your claim that Israel is an apartheid state. 

AFAIK Israel allows Muslims to practice their religion, run their own schools, govern various citys and areas, participate in the national government, own property, run businesses, initiate lawsuits, and have freedom of speech and assembly.

And who are these Muslims? Why they are the descendents of Palestinians who didnt flee. Almost fully integrated into the society.

If Aparthied was the case, wouldn't those same Arabic Palestinians integrated into Israel, be equally oppressed as the Gazans?

Gaza is the result of people fleeing Israel during/after previous Islamic initiated wars, into Egypt. And than Egypt pushing them back over the border to get rid of them.

Like 50% of the population has been born since 2000. The crowding and poverty, and hardship, is a direct consequence of having a ton of children.

The people of Gaza are almost entirely self created victims. (Previous to Oct 7 that is)

Edited August 21 by DieChecker

[+Liquid Gardens]

15 hours ago, Claira said:

What I disagree with is your claim that Israel is an apartheid state. You take issue with the fact that I pose questions without answering any of yours, but since you made the claim of apartheid, the onus was on you to provide evidence to support it.

As long as we're focusing on claims you said, "Why not start off the discussion by explaining why you think the ICC/UN definition applies to Israel and I'll be happy to clear up a few things for you.".  You haven't cleared up anything except you disagree that Israel qualifies as an apartheid state, you'll have to forgive if I mistakenly thought you might have had something a bit deeper than that to say.  It sounded like you've had this conversation before about apartheid so I was thinking you had some ready examples of why it doesn't qualify but I may have been wrong about that assumption, which isn't your responsibility.  

Nor did I make the claim that Israel is an apartheid state so no there is technically no more onus on me than there is on you; again - discussion forum, not formalized debate.  I was replying to someone else who was listing how things in Israel don't exactly match South Africa during Apartheid, which doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't qualify as 'apartheid' starting with a lower-case 'a'.

15 hours ago, Claira said:

That 'evidence' would have formed the basis and focus of our discussion. It took you a while to present me with something to go with — a laundry list of alleged Israeli human rights violation against Palestinians, as if that somehow makes a case for apartheid. It doesn't.

Nor did I say that since that wasn't the question you asked which I even quoted from you.  If you read a bit more carefully the laundry list was in direct response to your question, "What crimes against humanity has Israel committed?"; it's not a response to you asking for the complete case for apartheid.  What I think you should be stating in that context is 'I don't think those are human right violations' or 'I don't believe those things happened as stated', but whatever, nevermind, it certainly doesn't matter, I'm not going to play a guessing game as to what if anything your opinion is based on.

[Claira]

42 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Nor did I make the claim that Israel is an apartheid state so no there is technically no more onus on me than there is on you; again - discussion forum, not formalized debate.

It was implied, same thing. Furthermore, you had every opportunity to correct me at the outset, but chose not to.

45 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Nor did I say that since that wasn't the question you asked which I even quoted from you.  If you read a bit more carefully the laundry list was in direct response to your question, "What crimes against humanity has Israel committed?"; it's not a response to you asking for the complete case for apartheid.

It should go without saying that my question regarding crimes of humanity had everything to do with the case for/against apartheid. I read the laundry list, and it was, for the most part, one sided with clever omissions that distorted the truth. Take, for example, the accusation that Israel illegally harvests the organs of Palestinians. What the article conveniently failed to mention is that this was a medical ethics issue, not one of discrimination or targeting. Read the following if you are interested in knowing the truth:

https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/unfounded-claims-organ-harvesting-reignite-embers-decades-old-hospital-scandal-and

But my real quibble with the less than accurate laundry list is the fact that, for whatever reason, you did not provide, in your own words why you believe what you believe. Accusations against Israel of apartheid and genocide have become par for the course but when people making such accusations are pressed to support their claims, they more than often cannot.  I simply wanted to see if you could.

If you think my thoughts on the issue of apartheid might provide you with a better understanding of it, I would be happy to provide them. Or we can drop this topic altogether, something I'm also happy to do.

[CrimsonKing]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/20/israel-war-gaza-fuel-war-crimes-warning

Now the international court is saying the US is participating in war crimes 😆