Why do Palestinians accept Hammas leadership

[Claira]

7 hours ago, DieChecker said:

AFAIK Israel allows Muslims to practice their religion, run their own schools, govern various citys and areas, participate in the national government, own property, run businesses, initiate lawsuits, and have freedom of speech and assembly.

Most people point to Israel's policies in the West Bank and Gaza even though those policies do not constitute apartheid either. Interesting though how no one seems to mention the apartheid-like conditions Palestinians face in some Arab states, where they are oppressed and discriminated against by law.

[Claira]

5 minutes ago, CrimsonKing said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/20/israel-war-gaza-fuel-war-crimes-warning

Now the international court is saying the US is participating in war crimes 😆

Best news of the day and the article is behind a paywall.

I searched for other sources and all I could find were the following less biased (ha ha just kidding) sources:

https://yemenshabab.net/en/sections/NEWS/Translations/66e9f02b-5f26-11ef-9772-4292e6ba5caa

https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/states-fueling--israel-s--gaza-war-are-complicit-in-war-crim

[CrimsonKing]

12 minutes ago, Claira said:

Best news of the day and the article is behind a paywall.

I searched for other sources and all I could find were the following less biased (ha ha just kidding) sources:

https://yemenshabab.net/en/sections/NEWS/Translations/66e9f02b-5f26-11ef-9772-4292e6ba5caa

https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/states-fueling--israel-s--gaza-war-are-complicit-in-war-crim

It wasn't for me,you may have read your allotment of free articles for the month.

Well the International court is always right,we've been caught being naughty by them and must pay a serious price!...

Or we'll just laugh in their faces because...we are the US 😆

[simplybill]

Has anyone noticed that no one in the media or the ICJ is bringing attention to the Hamas-imposed apartheid in Gaza?
If I have time later, I’ll look for links to the articles I’ve read over the years about Muslim landowners and business owners who are dragged into the streets and beaten for doing business with Jews.

[+Liquid Gardens]

48 minutes ago, Claira said:

It was implied, same thing.

Uh, just no, that's not how that works.

49 minutes ago, Claira said:

Furthermore, you had every opportunity to correct me at the outset, but chose not to.

Correct you on what?  This is the first time you've said I've made a 'claim of apartheid', so I corrected you.  I'm not responsible for what you think I've claimed, it's been difficult enough to get you to discuss something other than the discussion itself.  I'm approaching this from the point of view that we are discussing whether Israel is an apartheid state, not that I'm insisting it is and debating you in an effort to defend that position.

57 minutes ago, Claira said:

It should go without saying that my question regarding crimes of humanity had everything to do with the case for/against apartheid.

It does have something to do with it of course, but that is not what you asked me.  You asked me a specific question about what crimes against humanity Israel has committed, I provided a list answering it, and then you did a bait and switch and falsely accused me of answering your question 'as if that somehow makes the case for apartheid'.  I answered the question you asked.  This distinction is of course relevant since it is possible for a country to commit crimes against humanity but not as part of apartheid.

1 hour ago, Claira said:

I read the laundry list, and it was, for the most part, one sided with clever omissions that distorted the truth.

None are accurate then?

1 hour ago, Claira said:

But my real quibble with the less than accurate laundry list is the fact that, for whatever reason, you did not provide, in your own words why you believe what you believe.

Nor did you, and it's becoming clear that you are mistaken in what you think 'I believe'.  Again, this is not a formalized debate, the 'onus' is not just on one of us, you made claims also.

1 hour ago, Claira said:

Accusations against Israel of apartheid and genocide have become par for the course but when people making such accusations are pressed to support their claims, they more than often cannot. 

Maybe so, maybe not, or maybe there's just a difference in what you consider to be apartheid, what counts as crimes against humanity, etc. 

1 hour ago, Claira said:

If you think my thoughts on the issue of apartheid might provide you with a better understanding of it, I would be happy to provide them. Or we can drop this topic altogether, something I'm also happy to do.

I think your thoughts would mainly just provide me with a better understanding of your opinion.  Given how long it has taken us to even get to this point, which I think is just from an honest misunderstanding from both of us on what we are discussing and the context of the discussion, I have no issue with dropping it.

[Claira]

14 minutes ago, simplybill said:

Has anyone noticed that no one in the media or the ICJ is bringing attention to the Hamas-imposed apartheid in Gaza?
If I have time later, I’ll look for links to the articles I’ve read over the years about Muslim landowners and business owners who are dragged into the streets and beaten for doing business with Jews.

Hamas views Palestinian civilians as a means to an end — that end being the end of Israel. I wouldn't classify what they've done to Palestinians as apartheid but their treatment of them has been and continues to be horrific. The sooner Hamas and its terror pals are placed out of commission, the sooner the Palestinian people can get on with their lives. A full recovery will take decades, but it is my hope that the international community will help these people get back on their feet and thrive.

[Claira]

10 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I think your thoughts would mainly just provide me with a better understanding of your opinion.  Given how long it has taken us to even get to this point, which I think is just from an honest misunderstanding from both of us on what we are discussing and the context of the discussion, I have no issue with dropping it.

Definitely a misunderstanding on both our parts, so yes let's drop it. But just so you know, I'm doing so reluctantly, as I was beginning to enjoy the back and forth non-discussion we were having. I even liked the way you handled it.

[+Liquid Gardens]

1 hour ago, Claira said:

Definitely a misunderstanding on both our parts, so yes let's drop it. But just so you know, I'm doing so reluctantly, as I was beginning to enjoy the back and forth non-discussion we were having. I even liked the way you handled it.

Thank you Claira!  It's of course not easy to communicate a 'tone of voice' in comment exchanges like this but I was just confused about where you were coming from and didn't mean to sound like I was attacking you or anything.  I do see how you may have conflated the questions I was asking with my taking and defending a specific position on this and it is understandable, I know some about Apartheid (the SA version) but am not that well-versed with Israel-Palestine issues as there is a ton there.  Discussing/debating I think is a good way to learn for me at least so I sometimes will argue points for a position I may not personally share.  I have taken a similar but opposite position against friends of mine who rattle off the bad way Palestinians are being treated and how many of them have purportedly been killed since the 10/7 attack, and I have not gotten very satisfying answers when I ask, 'what do you expect Israel to do, they were the victims of a terrorist attack'.

To play devil's advocate against the idea that Israel is an apartheid state, I do think there is a valid semantic point concerning 'races', although at some point that potentially becomes fairly irrelevant to me; if the US set up an apartheid-type situation against white Americans of German descent I'd think it's valid to still refer to that as 'apartheid' even though it's ethnicity-based and doesn't meet this 'race' criterion technically since whites are oppressing fellow whites.  Most of all I find it very difficult to get clear accurate information about what is going on there, the 'yes, but' kind of objections like the valid one you had against the organ harvesting point for me seems to apply to a lot of claims going both ways.  This conflict has been going on my entire life which I'll admit has generated some degree of apathy about it, but from what I know it sure overall seems far more gray than the black-or-white positions some take, neither group/side looks clean to me in this mess.

Most importantly welcome to UM!!  Good to have you aboard. 

 

[CrimsonKing]

https://nypost.com/2024/08/21/world-news/oct-7-mastermind-and-hamas-leader-yaya-sinwar-reportedly-adds-new-demand-for-cease-fire-deal-dont-kill-me/

What a coward 🤣

[simplybill]

4 hours ago, CrimsonKing said:

https://nypost.com/2024/08/21/world-news/oct-7-mastermind-and-hamas-leader-yaya-sinwar-reportedly-adds-new-demand-for-cease-fire-deal-dont-kill-me/

What a coward 🤣

Hopefully now the citizens of Gaza who were told that martyrdom is the golden ticket to Paradise will see through the hypocrisy of their leaders.