Precision in Nature: Evidence of God or Accidents?

[Alter2Ego]

Scientific evidence shows there is extreme precision in everything around us in the natural world. Precision leaves no room for error or for surprise results. Rather, precision requires deliberation.  Anything that required deliberation is evidence that an intelligent designer intervened and guided the outcome.

Take, for example, the first 60 elements that were discovered on the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth. Some of those 60 elements are gases and are therefore invisible to the human eye. The atoms—from which the Earth's elements are made—are specifically related to one another. In turn, the elements--e.g. arsenic, bismuth, chromium, gold, krypton--reflect a distinct, natural numeral order based upon the structure of their atoms. This is a proven LAW.

The precision in the order of the elements made it possible for scientists such as Mendeleyev, Ramsey, Moseley, and Bohr to theorize the existence of unknown elements and their characteristics. These elements were later discovered, just as predicted. Because of the distinct numerical order of the elements, the word LAW is applied to the Periodic Table of the Elements. (Sources: (1) The McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Science & Technology, (2) "Periodic Law," from Encyclopdia Britannica, Vol. VII, p. 878, copyright 1978, (3) The Hutchinson Dictionary of Scientific Biography)

 

DEFINITIONS TO KEEP IN MIND:

Laws (found in nature):

"a sequence of events that have been observed to occur with UNVARYING UNIFORMITY under the same conditions." (Source: Webster's New World Dictionary)

 

Accident:

"a nonessential event that HAPPENS BY CHANCE and has undesirable or unfortunate results." (Source: Websters New Collegiate Dictionary)

 

 

QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:

1.  Were it not for the precise relationship among the first 60 discovered elements on the Periodic Table, would scientists have been able to accurately predict the existence of forms of matter that, at the time, were unknown?

2.  Could the precise law within the first 60 discovered elements (on the Periodic Table) have resulted by chance aka spontaneously aka by accident, considering that, by definition, an accident causes "unfortunate" results and a spontaneous event shows lack of planning?

3.  As concerns the elements on the Periodic Table, provide a credible explanation for why there was no need for an Intelligent Designer/God who caused them to come into existence, considering that all of the elements are so precise, and so interrelated with one another that the Periodic Table has been assigned the words scientific "LAW".

[Ell]

Quote

Proverbs 249 One fool may ask more than seven wise men can answer.

 

[Piney]

1 hour ago, Alter2Ego said:

Scientific evidence shows there is extreme precision in everything around us in the natural world. Precision leaves no room for error or for surprise results. Rather, precision requires deliberation.  Anything that required deliberation is evidence that an intelligent designer intervened and guided the outcome.

Take, for example, the first 60 elements that were discovered on the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth. Some of those 60 elements are gases and are therefore invisible to the human eye. The atoms—from which the Earth's elements are made—are specifically related to one another. In turn, the elements--e.g. arsenic, bismuth, chromium, gold, krypton--reflect a distinct, natural numeral order based upon the structure of their atoms. This is a proven LAW.

The precision in the order of the elements made it possible for scientists such as Mendeleyev, Ramsey, Moseley, and Bohr to theorize the existence of unknown elements and their characteristics. These elements were later discovered, just as predicted. Because of the distinct numerical order of the elements, the word LAW is applied to the Periodic Table of the Elements. (Sources: (1) The McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Science & Technology, (2) "Periodic Law," from Encyclopdia Britannica, Vol. VII, p. 878, copyright 1978, (3) The Hutchinson Dictionary of Scientific Biography)

 

DEFINITIONS TO KEEP IN MIND:

Laws (found in nature):

"a sequence of events that have been observed to occur with UNVARYING UNIFORMITY under the same conditions." (Source: Webster's New World Dictionary)

 

Accident:

"a nonessential event that HAPPENS BY CHANCE and has undesirable or unfortunate results." (Source: Websters New Collegiate Dictionary)

 

 

QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:

1.  Were it not for the precise relationship among the first 60 discovered elements on the Periodic Table, would scientists have been able to accurately predict the existence of forms of matter that, at the time, were unknown?

2.  Could the precise law within the first 60 discovered elements (on the Periodic Table) have resulted by chance aka spontaneously aka by accident, considering that, by definition, an accident causes "unfortunate" results and a spontaneous event shows lack of planning?

3.  As concerns the elements on the Periodic Table, provide a credible explanation for why there was no need for an Intelligent Designer/God who caused them to come into existence, considering that all of the elements are so precise, and so interrelated with one another that the Periodic Table has been assigned the words scientific "LAW".

The universe started out with hydrogen and helium which pulled together into a masses so dense they began fusing creating heavier elements. These short lived  population 3 stars then went supernova creating heavier elements. These elements then clumped together forming population 2 stars. Which fused/created even heavier elements. They went boom and more heavier elements were born. Thus forming population 1 stars which is what our sun is.

Except for gold and the Platinum Group. They're only created in a binary neutron star capture/merger. 

[pellinore]

2 hours ago, Alter2Ego said:

1.  Were it not for the precise relationship among the first 60 discovered elements on the Periodic Table, would scientists have been able to accurately predict the existence of forms of matter that, at the time, were unknown?3.  As concerns the elements on the Periodic Table, provide a credible explanation for why there was no need for an Intelligent Designer/God who caused them to come into existence, considering that all of the elements are so precise, and so interrelated with one another that the Periodic Table has been assigned the words scientific "LAW".

1. Well, they weren't unknown, were they, if God created them? He knew, for starters. And he could have told Man from the get-go, to save us from a lot of research. Instead, he was preoccupied with talking snakes and apples.

3. If the whole caboodle is the work of an Intelligent Designer/God, he is prone to a lot of errors. As Woody Allen said, the best you can say is that he was an underachiever. A tidy workman wouldn't have overlooked diseases, earthquakes and tornadoes before he sat back and rested.

[Tatetopa]

Do you mean predictable rather than precise?   

[Alter2Ego]

35 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Do you mean predictable rather than precise?   

The key word is precise, Tatetopa.  The elements on the Periodic Table only became predictable as a result of them being precise.  That's why question 1 in my OP is as follows:

 

1.  Were it not for the precise relationship among the first 60 discovered elements on the Periodic Table, would scientists have been able to accurately predict the existence of forms of matter that, at the time, were unknown?

 

Edited August 12 by Alter2Ego

[papageorge1]

And we next get to the complexity of DNA and all that is in complex life. I'm voting 'Intelligence' and leaving the loaded 'God' word out of it.

Edited August 12 by papageorge1

[Tatetopa]

2 hours ago, Alter2Ego said:

The key word is precise, Tatetopa.  The elements on the Periodic Table only became predictable as a result of them being precise.  That's why question 1 in my OP is as follows:

 

1.  Were it not for the precise relationship among the first 60 discovered elements on the Periodic Table, would scientists have been able to accurately predict the existence of forms of matter that, at the time, were unknown?

 

Hi Alter.  I may not be understanding your terms.  Does precise mean conforming to a measurement?  The elements usually have one or more  isotopes, so the nucleus might vary somewhat.  Behavior  of the outer shell of electrons has a lot to do with how an element behaves.   The vertical columns of elements in the periodic table behave  in similar manner as to reactivity, and compounds they form.  

Do  you mean it in the sense  that carbon always has precisely 6 protons  and that determines its behavior?  Protons don't come in fractions, just whole numbers so sure every carbon atom has precisely 6 protons.

[zep73]

8 hours ago, Alter2Ego said:

Scientific evidence shows there is extreme precision in everything around us in the natural world. Precision leaves no room for error or for surprise results. Rather, precision requires deliberation.  Anything that required deliberation is evidence that an intelligent designer intervened and guided the outcome.

Design and divinity is not identical. If this sh!thole is made by someone, it sure is not benevolent beings.
There is actual strong indications in quantum mechanics that this is all fake. Virtual.

But why would you care about facts? You're on a mission, right?

[Alter2Ego]

26 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Hi Alter.  I may not be understanding your terms.  Does precise mean conforming to a measurement?  The elements usually have one or more  isotopes, so the nucleus might vary somewhat.  Behavior  of the outer shell of electrons has a lot to do with how an element behaves.   The vertical columns of elements in the periodic table behave  in similar manner as to reactivity, and compounds they form.  

Do  you mean it in the sense  that carbon always has precisely 6 protons  and that determines its behavior?  Protons don't come in fractions, just whole numbers so sure every carbon atom has precisely 6 protons.

Tatetopa:

Below is the definition of precise.
 

precise

[ pri-sahys ]

Phonetic (Standard)IPA

adjective

1. definitely or strictly stated, defined, or fixed:

   precise directions.

   Synonyms: explicit

   Antonyms: vague, indefinite

2. being exactly that and neither more nor less:

   a precise temperature;

   a precise amount.

3. being just that and no other:

   the precise dress she had wanted.

4. definite or exact in statement, as a person.
5. carefully distinct:

   precise articulation.

6. exact in measuring, recording, etc.:

   a precise instrument.

7. excessively or rigidly particular:

   precise observance of regulations;

   precise grooming.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/precise

 

 

For instance, Earth is in precisely the right location.

[cormac mac airt]

25 minutes ago, Alter2Ego said:

For instance, Earth is in precisely the right location.

There’s nothing precise about just barely being within the inner edge of our systems Goldilock’s Zone which ranges from 0.95 AU to 1.67 AU. 
 

https://www.sciencetimes.com/amp/articles/36972/20220414/goldilocks-zone-explained-what-is-the-temperature-distance-of-the-habitable-area-in-the-solar-system.htm

cormac

[Rlyeh]

11 hours ago, Alter2Ego said:

For instance, Earth is in precisely the right location.

Earth's location moves, it's not fixed or exact.

Calling the elements precise is odd, considering they change, lose or gain electrons, even becoming other elements.

[Ell]

11 hours ago, Alter2Ego said:

For instance, Earth is in precisely the right location.

Umm, it changes its location continuously.

[Coil]

Behind Nature there is God and he guides and directs all evolution for billions of years patiently doing his job and keeping in mind billions of nuances of how to develop earthly species of people and animals. Could a person develop evolution for billions of years? He could not because he does not know how to create life, where to start, what should go first and where evolution goes, the secrets of DNA and the body, but Nature knows because God is behind it. So science will argue for hundreds of years how it all began, they will look at nature and be amazed by it.

What for us are materially inviolable laws for God are just restrictions imposed on us temporarily by nature. At the level of God there is no law, the will of the spirit reigns there.

[pellinore]

59 minutes ago, Coil said:

 So science will argue for hundreds of years how it all began, they will look at nature and be amazed by it.

This is the only bit that makes sense in your post. And it is the bit you probably don't want to acknowledge, because it deals with science and nature, not the supernatural.

[simplybill]

On 8/11/2024 at 2:50 PM, Alter2Ego said:

Scientific evidence shows there is extreme precision in everything around us in the natural world.

I would add to that: Complexity.
A minor example of complexity is the human body’s need for 19 specific vitamins and minerals that are necessary for a human body to function properly. Those vitamins and minerals are obtained from various and very different sources. It would require a certain degree of intelligence for an evolving creature to not only acquire all of those substances, but also to have a basic understanding of the need for each one of those substances to insure its survival. IMO, an intelligent designer would be necessary to bring all those components together.
 

[Coil]

4 hours ago, simplybill said:

I would add to that: Complexity.

I was surprised when I learned that many internal organs perform 40-120 functions simultaneously. If a person is given 2-3 jobs to do per day for 8 hours, he will be exhausted, but our internal organs do this work patiently throughout the life of the organism. What kind of thing can work for 80 years? And the body works like that. A huge margin of safety. 9 classes of angels worked on man to create us and make us gods in the future.

In space, we see the precise movement of stars and planets, the movement of which can be calculated for many centuries ahead, and this cosmic stability is provided by the gods so that we do not experience upheavals on our planet and cosmic threats to life. So that we can live on the planet for billions of years in stability.

[eight bits]

Now this OP illustrates evolution!

More than a decade ago, there was a longer version that was shopped around the web:

2012-2014

https://atheistforums.org/post-278726.html
http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/precision-in-nature-evidence-of-god-or-accidents.245941/
https://forums.digitalpoint.com/threads/precision-in-nature-evidence-of-god-or-accidents.2529278/#post-17922152

https://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=newerthread&t=16922
https://magazine.grasscity.com/threads/precision-in-nature-evidence-of-god-or-accidents.1223213/
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/t/precision-in-nature-evidence-of-god-or-accidents/37672

https://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/precision-nature-evidence-god-or-accidents
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/big-bang-theory-and-matters-astronomical.8180/page-14

The new, leaner version seen atop this thread seems to have had its debut two months ago:

https://www.justplainpolitics.com/threads/our-fine-tuned-universe-accident-or-design.217396/

Edited August 13 by eight bits

[+Hammerclaw]

The alternative is to accept life as it is and reconcile oneself with the idea that there is no one, no higher power, keeping score. That very idea terrifies people who obsessively fear death and nurtures belief in religions and cults that promise an afterlife or some other form of continuance. 

[pellinore]

9 hours ago, simplybill said:

I would add to that: Complexity.
A minor example of complexity is the human body’s need for 19 specific vitamins and minerals that are necessary for a human body to function properly. Those vitamins and minerals are obtained from various and very different sources. It would require a certain degree of intelligence for an evolving creature to not only acquire all of those substances, but also to have a basic understanding of the need for each one of those substances to insure its survival. IMO, an intelligent designer would be necessary to bring all those components together.
 

So who made the Intelligent Designer? Or did it appear just by chance?

[+Sherapy]

On 8/11/2024 at 5:47 PM, Alter2Ego said:

The key word is precise, Tatetopa.  The elements on the Periodic Table only became predictable as a result of them being precise.  That's why question 1 in my OP is as follows:

 

1.  Were it not for the precise relationship among the first 60 discovered elements on the Periodic Table, would scientists have been able to accurately predict the existence of forms of matter that, at the time, were unknown?

 

The ability of scientists to predict unknown elements in the Periodic Table (PT )shows the strength of scientific investigation and natural laws, rather than supporting the idea of intelligent design. The PT was created by  “observing” patterns in the properties of elements, which allowed scientists to make educated guesses about elements that had not yet been discovered. As chemistry/physics progressed, knowledge was built on earlier findings through research and experiments, rather than from the influence of a designer. The successful predictions of missing elements demonstrate that natural laws govern the behavior of matter, and these relationships in the Periodic Table illustrate that we can understand nature through science alone, without the need to invoke intelligent design. 

[Coil]

1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

The alternative is to accept life as it is and reconcile oneself with the idea that there is no one, no higher power, keeping score. That very idea terrifies people who obsessively fear death and nurtures belief in religions and cults that promise an afterlife or some other form of continuance. 

Do you really think that religious people believe in God and the afterlife because of the fear of death? Religious people just want to know God, their true self or achieve spiritual liberation because the human mind is limited to know existence and the only way is to surpass man, the materiality of our mind and man in general. God is a perfect man who lives in bliss and truth and all the development of the universe is going to discover this perfect man in itself. All evolution will push man towards God and in future races science will discover the spirit and soul.

In the spoiler you can read what the society of the future will be like and what it will do:

 

Spoiler

A spiritualised society would live like its spiritual individ-
uals, not in the ego, but in the spirit, not as the collective ego,
but as the collective soul. This freedom from the egoistic stand-
point would be its first and most prominent characteristic. But
the elimination of egoism would not be brought about, as it is
now proposed to bring it about, by persuading or forcing the
individual to immolate his personal will and aspirations and his
precious and hard-won individuality to the collective will, aims
and egoism of the society, driving him like a victim of ancient
sacrifice to slay his soul on the altar of that huge and shapeless
idol.

----------------
Therefore a society which was even initially spiritualised
would make the revealing and finding of the divine Self in man
the supreme, even the guiding aim of all its activities, its educa-
tion, its knowledge, its science, its ethics, its art, its economical
and political structure.

---------------------

A spiritualised society would treat in its sociology the indi-
vidual, from the saint to the criminal, not as units of a social
problem to be passed through some skilfully devised machinery
and either flattened into the social mould or crushed out of it,
but as souls suffering and entangled in a net and to be rescued,
souls growing and to be encouraged to grow, souls grown and
from whom help and power can be drawn by the lesser spirits
who are not yet adult. The aim of its economics would be not to
create a huge engine of production, whether of the competitive
or the cooperative kind, but to give to men — not only to some
but to all men each in his highest possible measure — the joy
of work according to their own nature and free leisure to grow
inwardly, as well as a simply rich and beautiful life for all. In
its politics it would not regard the nations within the scope of
their own internal life as enormous State machines regulated
and armoured with man living for the sake of the machine and
worshipping it as his God and his larger self, content at the first
call to kill others upon its altar and to bleed there himself so
that the machine may remain intact and powerful and be made
ever larger, more complex, more cumbrous, more mechanically
efficient and entire. Neither would it be content to maintain these
nations or States in their mutual relations as noxious engines
meant to discharge poisonous gas upon each other in peace
and to rush in times of clash upon each other’s armed hosts
and unarmed millions, full of belching shot and men missioned
to murder like war-planes or hostile tanks in a modern battle-
field. It would regard the peoples as group-souls, the Divinity
concealed and to be self-discovered in its human collectivities,
group-souls meant like the individual to grow according to their
own nature and by that growth to help each other, to help the
whole race in the one common work of humanity. And that
work would be to find the divine Self in the individual and the
collectivity and to realise spiritually, mentally, vitally, materially
its greatest, largest, richest and deepest possibilities in the inner
life of all and their outer action and nature.

 

[+Hammerclaw]

1 hour ago, Coil said:

Do you really think that religious people believe in God and the afterlife because of the fear of death? Religious people just want to know God, their true self or achieve spiritual liberation because the human mind is limited to know existence and the only way is to surpass man, the materiality of our mind and man in general. God is a perfect man who lives in bliss and truth and all the development of the universe is going to discover this perfect man in itself. All evolution will push man towards God and in future races science will discover the spirit and soul.

In the spoiler you can read what the society of the future will be like and what it will do:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

A spiritualised society would live like its spiritual individ-
uals, not in the ego, but in the spirit, not as the collective ego,
but as the collective soul. This freedom from the egoistic stand-
point would be its first and most prominent characteristic. But
the elimination of egoism would not be brought about, as it is
now proposed to bring it about, by persuading or forcing the
individual to immolate his personal will and aspirations and his
precious and hard-won individuality to the collective will, aims
and egoism of the society, driving him like a victim of ancient
sacrifice to slay his soul on the altar of that huge and shapeless
idol.

----------------
Therefore a society which was even initially spiritualised
would make the revealing and finding of the divine Self in man
the supreme, even the guiding aim of all its activities, its educa-
tion, its knowledge, its science, its ethics, its art, its economical
and political structure.

---------------------

A spiritualised society would treat in its sociology the indi-
vidual, from the saint to the criminal, not as units of a social
problem to be passed through some skilfully devised machinery
and either flattened into the social mould or crushed out of it,
but as souls suffering and entangled in a net and to be rescued,
souls growing and to be encouraged to grow, souls grown and
from whom help and power can be drawn by the lesser spirits
who are not yet adult. The aim of its economics would be not to
create a huge engine of production, whether of the competitive
or the cooperative kind, but to give to men — not only to some
but to all men each in his highest possible measure — the joy
of work according to their own nature and free leisure to grow
inwardly, as well as a simply rich and beautiful life for all. In
its politics it would not regard the nations within the scope of
their own internal life as enormous State machines regulated
and armoured with man living for the sake of the machine and
worshipping it as his God and his larger self, content at the first
call to kill others upon its altar and to bleed there himself so
that the machine may remain intact and powerful and be made
ever larger, more complex, more cumbrous, more mechanically
efficient and entire. Neither would it be content to maintain these
nations or States in their mutual relations as noxious engines
meant to discharge poisonous gas upon each other in peace
and to rush in times of clash upon each other’s armed hosts
and unarmed millions, full of belching shot and men missioned
to murder like war-planes or hostile tanks in a modern battle-
field. It would regard the peoples as group-souls, the Divinity
concealed and to be self-discovered in its human collectivities,
group-souls meant like the individual to grow according to their
own nature and by that growth to help each other, to help the
whole race in the one common work of humanity. And that
work would be to find the divine Self in the individual and the
collectivity and to realise spiritually, mentally, vitally, materially
its greatest, largest, richest and deepest possibilities in the inner
life of all and their outer action and nature.

 

That's over-thinking it. Most people are religious, simply because they were raised in a religious cultural complex where being, or at least professing being, religious is as natural as breathing. 

[simplybill]

1 hour ago, pellinore said:

So who made the Intelligent Designer? Or did it appear just by chance?

I realize this quote from Wikipedia isn’t even remotely connected to a discussion on Intelligent Design, but it could be used to highlight one aspect of the mystery of an entity whose existence isn’t subject to the constraints of time and space.

“A base quantity is one of a conventionally chosen subset of physical quantities, where no quantity in the subset can be expressed in terms of the others.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_unit_of_measurement

To take that a step further:  We, being constrained by the limitations of time and space, are unable to conceive of the existence of an eternal entity because we have nothing to compare it to.

Edward Tryon’s concept of quantum fluctuations in a vacuum has been accepted by many in the scientific community as a possible explanation for the ‘something from nothing’ question, but there again his hypothesis is based on evidence and/or conjecture limited to our physical universe.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Tryon#Dennis_Sciama_and_the_idea_that_the_universe_is_a_vacuum_fluctuation

[pellinore]

38 minutes ago, simplybill said:

To take that a step further:  We, being constrained by the limitations of time and space, are unable to conceive of the existence of an eternal entity because we have nothing to compare it to.

But you just have, with no evidence at all to go on. You just made it up.