Precision in Nature: Evidence of God or Accidents?

[simplybill]

57 minutes ago, pellinore said:

But you just have, with no evidence at all to go on. You just made it up.

I’m not sure what you mean. In the context of this topic (Evidence of God or Accidents), I think a better way to describe my post is that I pointed out an alternative approach to the concept of an eternal entity. Of course, being a Christian, my beliefs are based upon biblical teachings. 
That approach isn’t anti-science in any way, because science, physics and philosophers haven’t reached an indisputable agreement on the origins of the universe. We’re still in ‘agree-to-disagree’ mode.

 

[Piney]

3 hours ago, simplybill said:

I realize this quote from Wikipedia isn’t even remotely connected to a discussion on Intelligent Design, but it could be used to highlight one aspect of the mystery of an entity whose existence isn’t subject to the constraints of time and space.

“A base quantity is one of a conventionally chosen subset of physical quantities, where no quantity in the subset can be expressed in terms of the others.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_unit_of_measurement

To take that a step further:  We, being constrained by the limitations of time and space, are unable to conceive of the existence of an eternal entity because we have nothing to compare it to.

Edward Tryon’s concept of quantum fluctuations in a vacuum has been accepted by many in the scientific community as a possible explanation for the ‘something from nothing’ question, but there again his hypothesis is based on evidence and/or conjecture limited to our physical universe.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Tryon#Dennis_Sciama_and_the_idea_that_the_universe_is_a_vacuum_fluctuation

In the cyclical universe theory the singularity is already there. Being a collapsed previous universe.

As for evolution and the increase in elements through chemical reactions as the universe grows, the law increasing functional complexity doesn't need a creator behind it. 

It does point to maybe the universe itself being "God". 

I love how my "primitive" Yellow Shamanism agrees with current science, but American Evangelicalism doesn't. 

 

 

 

[L.A.T.1961]

15 hours ago, simplybill said:

I would add to that: Complexity.
A minor example of complexity is the human body’s need for 19 specific vitamins and minerals that are necessary for a human body to function properly. Those vitamins and minerals are obtained from various and very different sources. It would require a certain degree of intelligence for an evolving creature to not only acquire all of those substances, but also to have a basic understanding of the need for each one of those substances to insure its survival. IMO, an intelligent designer would be necessary to bring all those components together.
 

I think my initial observation about the idea that life would require a certain degree of intelligence to thrive is its not taking into account natural selection.

Life would either use, by chance, food stuffs that included useful nutrients, or they would have to change, or be outcompeted by stronger healthier similar types of life.

What we are left with is life that looks like it had an idea about vitamins and minerals.

An idea that can be compelling but is inaccurate.

 

[Piney]

1 hour ago, simplybill said:

I’m not sure what you mean. In the context of this topic (Evidence of God or Accidents), I think a better way to describe my post is that I pointed out an alternative approach to the concept of an eternal entity. Of course, being a Christian, my beliefs are based upon biblical teachings. 
That approach isn’t anti-science in any way, because science, physics and philosophers haven’t reached an indisputable agreement on the origins of the universe. We’re still in ‘agree-to-disagree’ mode.

 

"Science, history and religion must agree. When they don't that aspect of religion is nonsense and nonsense has no place in a Quaker Meeting.

Emma Peaslee Engle

Sorry Bill, anti-science American Christianity is a minority among Christians. 

Edited August 13 by Piney
Brain turd

[+Liquid Gardens]

15 hours ago, simplybill said:

A minor example of complexity is the human body’s need for 19 specific vitamins and minerals that are necessary for a human body to function properly. Those vitamins and minerals are obtained from various and very different sources. It would require a certain degree of intelligence for an evolving creature to not only acquire all of those substances, but also to have a basic understanding of the need for each one of those substances to insure its survival. IMO, an intelligent designer would be necessary to bring all those components together.

Or the evolving creature would have just evolved differently into one that didn't require all 19 vitamins if the ID failed to 'bring all those components together'.  Most evolving creatures do not and historically did not require having a 'basic understanding' of the need for each of those substances, most evolving creatures are pretty clueless about what vitamins and minerals even are obviously.  It doesn't appear that it is obvious that if you have scurvy you need Vitamin C, and that's to us evolving creatures who do have intelligence.

4 hours ago, simplybill said:

We, being constrained by the limitations of time and space, are unable to conceive of the existence of an eternal entity because we have nothing to compare it to.

I think you need an adjective before 'conceive', pretty sure you are a theist, I doubt you believe in something you are totally unable to conceive in any way.  I can conceive of a god that doles out eternal life to those that believe Jesus is their savior and sends souls to heaven, I don't know all the details but the conception being defined there isn't that complicated.

4 hours ago, simplybill said:

Edward Tryon’s concept of quantum fluctuations in a vacuum has been accepted by many in the scientific community as a possible explanation for the ‘something from nothing’ question

Okay that's cool, didn't know that.  Not sure if you're switching gears here but this seems a level below discussions of biology and evolution, I don't think what is being hypothesized as coming from nothing is DNA/self-replicating molecules, let alone species.

[cormac mac airt]

16 hours ago, simplybill said:

I would add to that: Complexity.
A minor example of complexity is the human body’s need for 19 specific vitamins and minerals that are necessary for a human body to function properly. Those vitamins and minerals are obtained from various and very different sources. It would require a certain degree of intelligence for an evolving creature to not only acquire all of those substances, but also to have a basic understanding of the need for each one of those substances to insure its survival. IMO, an intelligent designer would be necessary to bring all those components together.
 

That certain degree of intelligence only requires understanding “this is good for me, that is not” and nothing more especially considering that the sources for essential nutrients are not always the same. 
 

cormac

[pellinore]

2 hours ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

I think my initial observation about the idea that life would require a certain degree of intelligence to thrive is its not taking into account natural selection.

Life would either use, by chance, food stuffs that included useful nutrients, or they would have to change, or be outcompeted by stronger healthier similar types of life.

What we are left with is life that looks like it had an idea about vitamins and minerals.

An idea that can be compelling but is inaccurate.

 

That's exactly what I was thinking! Life evolves using the building blocks available. As it evolves, it becomes more complex and uses more of the available recourses, which also possibly become more complex or at least the organism adapts to use more of them.  That how we get from a single-celled organism to a mammal. 

Looking at the end-product, it seems almost impossibly complex, but it started through the stages of natural selection.

I remember the presenter of The God Channel arguing with Richard Dawson, saying half an eye or half a bladder would be useless- you would be blinded and have to wait a million years to have a pee (he actually said that) so it all must have been created instantaneously. He just couldn't get it.

[Piney]

23 hours ago, pellinore said:

That's exactly what I was thinking! Life evolves using the building blocks available. As it evolves, it becomes more complex and uses more of the available recourses, which also possibly become more complex or at least the organism adapts to use more of them.  That how we get from a single-celled organism to a mammal. 

Looking at the end-product, it seems almost impossibly complex, but it started through the stages of natural selection.

I remember the presenter of The God Channel arguing with Richard Dawson, saying half an eye or half a bladder would be useless- you would be blinded and have to wait a million years to have a pee (he actually said that) so it all must have been created instantaneously. He just couldn't get it.

The Law of Increasing Functional Complexity doesn't need a "creator". 

[Will Due]

 

The Creator doesn't need the man-made supposed Law of Increasing Functional Complexity.

 

 

 

Edited August 14 by Will Due

[L.A.T.1961]

One slightly mind bending thought is that hydrogen in the early universe became conscious.  

But the chain of events to consciousness can be explained by more appropriate designs doing a better job at reproducing while coping with their environment.

[Piney]

2 minutes ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

One slightly mind bending thought is that hydrogen in the early universe became conscious.  

But the chain of events to consciousness can be explained by more appropriate designs doing a better job at reproducing while coping with their environment.

If the Universe itself is "God" it's in it's tweens and still growing and learning. 

 Increasing Functional Complexity works perfectly in the big picture. But it takes the path of least resistance and in small things mistakes are made. Evolution for example.

[Guyver]

On 8/13/2024 at 11:08 AM, Piney said:

In the cyclical universe theory the singularity is already there. Being a collapsed previous universe.

As for evolution and the increase in elements through chemical reactions as the universe grows, the law increasing functional complexity doesn't need a creator behind it. 

It does point to maybe the universe itself being "God". 

I love how my "primitive" Yellow Shamanism agrees with current science, but American Evangelicalism doesn't. 

 

 

 

Brilliant.

[Guyver]

5 hours ago, Piney said:

If the Universe itself is "God" it's in it's tweens and still growing and learning. 

 Increasing Functional Complexity works perfectly in the big picture. But it takes the path of least resistance and in small things mistakes are made. Evolution for example.

Some people actually do believe the Universe is God, and who’s to say that’s wrong?  No one knows what God is.  It might be a supercomputer from the future.

[Guyver]

As far as the precision of the universe….oh…yes, it is precise.  That is for sure.  It’s so precise it will kill you without missing you at all.  Whether God made that or not is not known for sure by anyone. But here’s hoping for rainbows and unicorns on the other side.  

[Guyver]

6 hours ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

One slightly mind bending thought is that hydrogen in the early universe became conscious.  

But the chain of events to consciousness can be explained by more appropriate designs doing a better job at reproducing while coping with their environment.

That is mind bending.

[Guyver]

7 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

The Creator doesn't need the man-made supposed Law of Increasing Functional Complexity.

 

 

 

Thank you Captain Obvious.  If there be such a thing as God, who seemingly doesn’t really wish to make itself known, like aliens, then yes….a better view of it than the Bible gives would be accurate and precise.  It would seem, to us.  But, the universe that we live in is a vast thing billions of years old who’s size and power are literally incalculable and it it doesn’t have a spokesman.  Science tells us that the universe is a place of extreme death, birth, life, dying, rebirth….so…WTF?  It’s literally metaphorical even though it could be just cold blooded non-guided nature.  

[Piney]

4 hours ago, Guyver said:

Some people actually do believe the Universe is God, and who’s to say that’s wrong?  No one knows what God is.  It might be a supercomputer from the future.

I do. But I also have a deist philosophy about it. The Universe is too big and we are too small to matter in the big picture.

[Coil]

11 hours ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

One slightly mind bending thought is that hydrogen in the early universe became conscious.  

But the chain of events to consciousness can be explained by more appropriate designs doing a better job at reproducing while coping with their environment.

Atoms and elementary particles themselves are conscious, since God is also matter. There is no matter without consciousness, otherwise life could not have appeared from gases and chemical elements at all. God did not simply create this world, he became this world, so that he is everywhere around us. Since we have material vision, we cannot feel that a spoon or a plate is God, but if we were enlightened for a couple of minutes, we would immediately feel the living person of God in every object. Even the sounds of music are all divine. Even a stone lying on the road is adored if you take it in your hands, and you carry it carefully because it is God.

And our material consciousness argues and searches for God and does not believe in him, that is what materialism is, but as soon as enlightenment occurs, you understand that God is in everything and is everything.

[Piney]

32 minutes ago, Coil said:

Atoms and elementary particles themselves are conscious, since God is also matter. There is no matter without consciousness, otherwise life could not have appeared from gases and chemical elements at all. God did not simply create this world, he became this world, so that he is everywhere around us. Since we have material vision, we cannot feel that a spoon or a plate is God, but if we were enlightened for a couple of minutes, we would immediately feel the living person of God in every object. Even the sounds of music are all divine. Even a stone lying on the road is adored if you take it in your hands, and you carry it carefully because it is God.

And our material consciousness argues and searches for God and does not believe in him, that is what materialism is, but as soon as enlightenment occurs, you understand that God is in everything and is everything.

The Algonquian, Sioux and Japanese believe the same.

 

[Coil]

5 hours ago, Piney said:

The Algonquian, Sioux and Japanese believe the same.

 

What will happen in the distant future to humanity according to your faith?

[Piney]

27 minutes ago, Coil said:

What will happen in the distant future to humanity according to your faith?

We don't look that far off. What happens, happens...

[Coil]

14 minutes ago, Piney said:

We don't look that far off. What happens, happens...

I understand, but I wouldn’t be interested in living like that.
When you have a high goal, you know why you live and bring this future closer, at least one small step forward.

[Piney]

6 minutes ago, Coil said:

I understand, but I wouldn’t be interested in living like that.
When you have a high goal, you know why you live and bring this future closer, at least one small step forward.

We burned a bunch of false prophets on the White River in the 1800s and never accepted prophecy or guessed at the future again.

My personal higher purpose was being a first responder. I fulfilled that goal and turned in my gear because I'm getting old. 

[Alter2Ego]

On 8/12/2024 at 7:53 PM, simplybill said:

I would add to that: Complexity.
A minor example of complexity is the human body’s need for 19 specific vitamins and minerals that are necessary for a human body to function properly. Those vitamins and minerals are obtained from various and very different sources. It would require a certain degree of intelligence for an evolving creature to not only acquire all of those substances, but also to have a basic understanding of the need for each one of those substances to insure its survival. IMO, an intelligent designer would be necessary to bring all those components together.
 

simplybill:

That's exactly the point I'm trying to make with this thread, that precision could not happen by itself.

 

Alter2Ego

[Alter2Ego]

On 8/11/2024 at 9:07 PM, Alter2Ego said:

For instance, Earth is in precisely the right location.

  

On 8/12/2024 at 8:48 AM, Ell said:

Umm, it changes its location continuously.

Ell:

Earth being in the right location does not mean there is no movement.  Earth moves, true enough, but its movement is restricted to the same orbital paths or location.

 

"EARTH’S ORBIT AND ROTATION DEFINITION

The Earth moves in two different ways. Earth orbits the sun once a year and rotates on its axis once a day. The Earth’s orbit makes a circle around the sun. At the same time the Earth orbits around the sun, it also spins. In science, we call that rotating on its axis. Since the Earth orbits the sun AND rotates on its axis at the same time we experience seasons, day and night, and changing shadows throughout the day."

https://www.generationgenius.com/earth-rotation-and-orbit/

 

When I said Earth is in precisely the right location, I was referring to its location with relationship to other planets.

 

Alter2Ego