Precision in Nature: Evidence of God or Accidents?

[Alter2Ego]

On 8/13/2024 at 5:08 AM, Sherapy said:

The ability of scientists to predict unknown elements in the Periodic Table (PT )shows the strength of scientific investigation and natural laws, rather than supporting the idea of intelligent design. The PT was created by  “observing” patterns in the properties of elements, which allowed scientists to make educated guesses about elements that had not yet been discovered. As chemistry/physics progressed, knowledge was built on earlier findings through research and experiments, rather than from the influence of a designer. The successful predictions of missing elements demonstrate that natural laws govern the behavior of matter, and these relationships in the Periodic Table illustrate that we can understand nature through science alone, without the need to invoke intelligent design. 

Sherapy:

You are missing the point:  None of the scientists who predicted the unknown elements that came to part of the Periodic Table could have done so without the precision within the elements. 

You are also missing the point that precision cannot happen by itself and that precision, in and of itself, announces that an intelligent being who intervened and guided the outcome.  We know for a fact that none of the natural elements on the Periodic Table were the result of human intervention.  So my question to you is this:  Who created the natural elements that are on the Period Table?

[Alter2Ego]

On 8/11/2024 at 3:51 PM, pellinore said:

1. Well, they weren't unknown, were they, if God created them? He knew, for starters. And he could have told Man from the get-go, to save us from a lot of research. Instead, he was preoccupied with talking snakes and apples.

3. If the whole caboodle is the work of an Intelligent Designer/God, he is prone to a lot of errors. As Woody Allen said, the best you can say is that he was an underachiever. A tidy workman wouldn't have overlooked diseases, earthquakes and tornadoes before he sat back and rested.

Pellinore:

Woody Allen is hardly in position to complain about anything based on his history with his stepdaugher.  That said, your statements that the Almighty is "prone to a lot of errors," after which you mentioned diseases, earthquakes, and tornadoes is what I usually get from people (usually atheists) who are convinced Jehovah owes them something.  And so because the Almighty hasn't lived up to their expectations, they attempt to banish him into non-existence by claiming there is no God.  If there is no Jehovah, how do you explain our fine-tuned universe?

The reality is that diseases, earthquakes, and tornadoes are the result of human rebellion against Jehovah, beginning with the first human pair, Adam and Eve, in the Garden of Eden.  They rebelled against the Almighty even after he warned them they would die if they did so.

Genesis 2:8

Further, Jehovah God planted a garden in Eʹden, toward the east; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Genesis 2:9

Thus Jehovah God made to grow out of the ground every tree that was pleasing to look at and good for food and also the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.

 

Genesis 2:15

Jehovah God took the man and settled him in the garden of Eʹden to cultivate it and to take care of it.

Genesis 2:16

Jehovah God also gave this command to the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction.

Genesis 2:17

But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.”

[Alter2Ego]

On 8/13/2024 at 5:02 AM, pellinore said:

So who made the Intelligent Designer? Or did it appear just by chance?

Pellinore:

This is the same stale argument that I get from skeptics aka atheist at website after website.  They attempt to place human limitations on the Creator, insisting that if humans were created, then the Creator must have likewise been created.  Never mind that Jehovah is not human.

Your question about who created the Creator is similar to a goldfish asking who created the humans who placed it inside a fish bowl.  A goldfish is as incapable of understanding the superiority of humans (in comparison to itself), just as humans are incapable of understanding the superiority of Almighty God Jehovah.  Why so?  Because a goldfish is a lower life form when compared to a human being.  Similarly, humans are lower life forms when compared to Jehovah--their Creator.  Scripture from God's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible, says Jehovah is eternal.  An eternal person does not have a beginning and does not have an end.

 

"Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even FROM EVERLASTING to EVERLASTING, thou art God." (Psalms 90:2 – King James Version)

[eight bits]

5 hours ago, Alter2Ego said:

Pellinore:

This is the same stale argument that I get from skeptics aka atheist at website after website.  They attempt to place human limitations on the Creator, insisting that if humans were created, then the Creator must have likewise been created.  Never mind that Jehovah is not human.

Your question about who created the Creator is similar to a goldfish asking who created the humans who placed it inside a fish bowl.  A goldfish is as incapable of understanding the superiority of humans (in comparison to itself), just as humans are incapable of understanding the superiority of Almighty God Jehovah.  Why so?  Because a goldfish is a lower life form when compared to a human being.  Similarly, humans are lower life forms when compared to Jehovah--their Creator.  Scripture from God's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible, says Jehovah is eternal.  An eternal person does not have a beginning and does not have an end.

 

"Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even FROM EVERLASTING to EVERLASTING, thou art God." (Psalms 90:2 – King James Version)

Now that you have explained why you hesitate to reply, what is the answer to the well-posed question, "So who made the Intelligent Designer?"

[Coil]

7 hours ago, Alter2Ego said:

Further, Jehovah God planted a garden in Eʹden, toward the east; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

 

But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.”

I have already written before that Jehovah was the caretaker of the Garden of Eden, this is the lower creator god-titan and he wanted Adam and Eve to obey him. And the Serpent (another god) told Eve that you will be like gods if you eat an apple, which symbolizes material intelligence and knowledge.

And people acquired intelligence and no longer wanted to obey Jehovah, who pretended to be the highest god. So Jehovah managed to establish himself as a god only over the Jews, so they are like the chosen people.

And then Christ came and brought knowledge about the true, highest, loving and forgiving God, who was radically different from the vengeful god of the Old Testament.

So you need to understand who Jehovah really was. The human mind brings death, it is a mortal shell, so people began to die. And in order to become immortal again, people must discover the divine mind and the divine body on earth, and this is only possible if humanity goes through its evolution through the thinking mind, which is transmitted by heredity through a woman (a man is a mutation), so the wise Serpent approached Eve.

[+Sherapy]

8 hours ago, Alter2Ego said:

Sherapy:

You are missing the point:  None of the scientists who predicted the unknown elements that came to part of the Periodic Table could have done so without the precision within the elements. 

You are also missing the point that precision cannot happen by itself and that precision, in and of itself, announces that an intelligent being who intervened and guided the outcome.  We know for a fact that none of the natural elements on the Periodic Table were the result of human intervention.  So my question to you is this:  Who created the natural elements that are on the Period Table?

Your argument is trying to advance that the precision in the Periodic Table points to an intelligent designer, but this overlooks how elements naturally form through processes like nuclear fusion in stars, governed by the laws of physics and chemistry.
 

An add too: alterego2 the predictability in the behavior of elements comes from our understanding of these natural laws, not from any intelligent intervention. The ability of scientists to predict unknown elements is a result of cumulative research and observation, showcasing the repetitive nature of scientific inquiry not a “guiding intelligence.” Ultimately, the complexity and order found in the Periodic Table reflect the intrinsic patterns of nature, which we comprehend through scientific investigation, highlighting the human capacity to understand the universe without invoking the need for an intelligent designer.

[Ell]

12 hours ago, Alter2Ego said:

Ell:

It is best to post only in black.

Using a mish-mash of colours gives the impression that you are crazy.

[cormac mac airt]

15 minutes ago, Ell said:

It is best to post only in black.

Using a mish-mash of colours gives the impression that you are crazy.

Or immature! 
 

cormac

[cormac mac airt]

3 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Your argument is trying to advance that the precision in the Periodic Table points to an intelligent designer, but this overlooks how elements naturally form through processes like nuclear fusion in stars, governed by the laws of physics and chemistry.
 

An add too: alterego2 the predictability in the behavior of elements comes from our understanding of these natural laws, not from any intelligent intervention. The ability of scientists to predict unknown elements is a result of cumulative research and observation, showcasing the repetitive nature of scientific inquiry not a “guiding intelligence.” Ultimately, the complexity and order found in the Periodic Table reflect the intrinsic patterns of nature, which we comprehend through scientific investigation, highlighting the human capacity to understand the universe without invoking the need for an intelligent designer.

It also ignores the fact that elements found in the Periodic Table were not found in order. 
 

cormac

[L.A.T.1961]

The argument falls apart for intelligent design when you consider how many different perfect designs could be created. We have discovered this without a note from the devine.

There are many combinations of physical laws that would allow a universe to come into being and then persist for very long periods.

It would look different to this one. If intelligence created our universe why allow others to be technically possible when we need only one, surly the intelligence would not need the others and make it impossible for other combinations of physical laws to exist ?

So this particular version is not special, or needs to be guided by the hand of a creator.

 

 

[cormac mac airt]

Precision in nature is rather an oxymoron when the human spine shows evidence of being a leftover from our knuckle-dragging, tree climbing ancestors and showing ZERO precision for adequacy for hominid bipedalism. 
 

cormac

[Coil]

2 hours ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

The argument falls apart for intelligent design when you consider how many different perfect designs could be created. We have discovered this without a note from the devine.

So this particular version is not special, or needs to be guided by the hand of a creator.

God is inexhaustible, so he can manifest an infinite number of variations of living beings.

It would be strange to think that you as a person exist and God as a person does not exist, given that all living things are a projection of one God into many beings.

If you are enlightened, you will immediately feel the divine in everything, but for now the material mind deceives you because it sees only material things but does not feel God.

God did not simply create this world, he became this world and all living and non-living beings, but we do not feel him. This is the degree of extreme materialism of the mind that does not know the truth.

[Alter2Ego]

8 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Your argument is trying to advance that the precision in the Periodic Table points to an intelligent designer, but this overlooks how elements naturally form through processes like nuclear fusion in stars, governed by the laws of physics and chemistry.
 

An add too: alterego2 the predictability in the behavior of elements comes from our understanding of these natural laws, not from any intelligent intervention. The ability of scientists to predict unknown elements is a result of cumulative research and observation, showcasing the repetitive nature of scientific inquiry not a “guiding intelligence.” Ultimately, the complexity and order found in the Periodic Table reflect the intrinsic patterns of nature, which we comprehend through scientific investigation, highlighting the human capacity to understand the universe without invoking the need for an intelligent designer.

Sherapy:

Who created the stars and everything within them?  Humans didn't do it.  So who is responsible for that?

  

8 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Your argument is trying to advance that the precision in the Periodic Table points to an intelligent designer, but this overlooks how elements naturally form through processes like nuclear fusion in stars, governed by the laws of physics and chemistry.

Who created the laws of physics and chemistry?  Are you suggesting to this forum that the laws of physics and chemistry resulted from accidents or by chance?  Notice below the definition of "accident," as stated in my OP.

 

Accident:

"a nonessential event that HAPPENS BY CHANCE and has undesirable or unfortunate results." (Source: Websters New Collegiate Dictionary)

 

[Alter2Ego]

8 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Your argument is trying to advance that the precision in the Periodic Table points to an intelligent designer, but this overlooks how elements naturally form through processes like nuclear fusion in stars, governed by the laws of physics and chemistry.
 

An add too: alterego2 the predictability in the behavior of elements comes from our understanding of these natural laws, not from any intelligent intervention. The ability of scientists to predict unknown elements is a result of cumulative research and observation, showcasing the repetitive nature of scientific inquiry not a “guiding intelligence.” Ultimately, the complexity and order found in the Periodic Table reflect the intrinsic patterns of nature, which we comprehend through scientific investigation, highlighting the human capacity to understand the universe without invoking the need for an intelligent designer.

Sherapy:

Since, according to you, intelligent intervention was not required to cause the existence of the 92 naturally occurring elements on the Periodic Table ("natural" means they were not created by humans), how is it that it required intelligent intervention (human scientists in controlled laboratory conditions) to create the 24 man-made elements on the same Periodic Table? 

Edited September 1 by Alter2Ego

[+Sherapy]

20 minutes ago, Alter2Ego said:

Sherapy:

Since, according to you, intelligent intervention was not required to cause the existence of the 92 naturally occurring elements on the Periodic Table ("natural" means they were not created by humans), how is it that it required intelligent intervention (human scientists in controlled laboratory conditions) to create the 24 man-made elements on the same Periodic Table? 

Alter2ego, naturally occurring elements can form without human intervention, while man-made elements require intentional experimentation and manipulation of atomic particles to create new elements that do not naturally exist on Earth.

Are you a friend of Read’s?

Edited September 1 by Sherapy

[+Sherapy]

33 minutes ago, Alter2Ego said:

Sherapy:

Who created the stars and everything within them?  Humans didn't do it.  So who is responsible for that?

  

Who created the laws of physics and chemistry?  Are you suggesting to this forum that the laws of physics and chemistry resulted from accidents or by chance?  Notice below the definition of "accident," as stated in my OP.

 

Accident:

"a nonessential event that HAPPENS BY CHANCE and has undesirable or unfortunate results." (Source: Websters New Collegiate Dictionary)

 

Big bang theory at this point.

[Alter2Ego]

7 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Alter2ego, naturally occurring elements can form without human intervention, while man-made elements require intentional experimentation and manipulation of atomic particles to create new elements that do not naturally exist on Earth.

Are you a friend of Read’s?

Sherapy:

So according to you, the 92 naturally occurring elements on the Periodic Table, with all of their precision, did not require intelligent intervention, but the man-made ones did.

 

I see hypocrisy.

[Alter2Ego]

8 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Big bang theory at this point.

Sherapy:

A theory is nothing more than educated guesses with no evidence to prove it.  Don't you know that?

 

DEFINITION OF "SCIENTIFIC THEORY":
"Definition: In the context of science, a theory is a well-established explanation for scientific data. Theories typically cannot be proven, but they can become established if they are tested by several different scientific investigators. A theory can be disproven by a single contrary result." 
https://www.thoughtco.com/definition-of-theory-in-chemistry-605932

[jmccr8]

22 minutes ago, Alter2Ego said:

Sherapy:

So according to you, the 92 naturally occurring elements on the Periodic Table, with all of their precision, did not require intelligent intervention, but the man-made ones did.

 

I see hypocrisy.

HI Alter

What you see is what you fabricate in your own mind for your perception of reality

[+Sherapy]

40 minutes ago, Alter2Ego said:

Sherapy:

So according to you, the 92 naturally occurring elements on the Periodic Table, with all of their precision, did not require intelligent intervention, but the man-made ones did.

 

I see hypocrisy.

And @Will Due

Both of you are not understanding what you are reading so let me help you, there's a misunderstanding in the definition of a theory on your end. In science, a theory is actually a well substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is based on a body of evidence and has withstood repeated scrutiny and testing. Unlike simple guesses, scientific theories are formed from observations, experiments, and data. They can evolve over time as new evidence comes to light. 
 

This type of discussion requires a basic understanding of science otherwise you are in over your head. 
 

You are Christian and believe in creationism, correct? 

Edited September 1 by Sherapy

[L.A.T.1961]

If god created everything where were the cars and computers before man produced them and why did he stop at elements on the periodic table.

Or making the earth and universe.

Where did he leave a warp drive so man can explore his domain? 

I find his involvement conveniently variable. 😉

[Will Due]

31 minutes ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

I find his involvement conveniently variable. 

 

Lefties want everything done for them. They think it's convenient. 

Others look forward to doing what the uninvolved won't do. Because they know how convenient that is. 

 

 

[Will Due]

1 hour ago, Sherapy said:

You are Christian and believe in creationism, correct? 

 

"Be not discouraged; human evolution is still in progress, and the revelation of God to the world, in and through Jesus, shall not fail." 

The Faith of Jesus

 

 

 

Edited September 1 by Will Due

[Will Due]

On 8/11/2024 at 1:50 PM, Alter2Ego said:

Precision in Nature: Evidence of God or Accidents?

 

It's not accidental.

"The process of planetary evolution is orderly and controlled. The development of higher organisms from lower groupings of life is not accidental."

Link

 

 

[+Sherapy]

11 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

"Be not discouraged; human evolution is still in progress, and the revelation of God to the world, in and through Jesus, shall not fail." 

The Faith of Jesus

 

 

 

“Silence is golden.” 

Edited September 1 by Sherapy