The Historicity of Jesus Christ

[Will Due]

6 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

But we aren't blood descended from God the way Jesus was

 

Oh, now I see what you mean by saying Jesus was blood descended from God.

 

6 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

so really Jesus' whole ministry message was less about ethics than establishing his divinity.

I'm not sure why you would say that his message was less about ethics than establishing his divinity. I think they both were part and parcel to the same thing.

Being descended from God the way Jesus was made it impossible for his divinity not to become established, and in my opinion, the way I see it, it's all apart of the plan of his incarnation that the establishment of his divinity which is and was unavoidable would work to highlight and emphasize the truth of the things he taught, said and did.

 

 

[Ell]

8 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Much of what Jesus said and did makes no sense unless he was the physical son of god.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Jesus had a mouth nor airways.

[Alter2Ego]

21 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

1)  No one can confirm the existence of a person who died BEFORE they were born. Belief is NOT confirmation, it is merely belief. 
 

2)  Textual mentions of Jesus AFTER he died and by those who never knew him in life IS NOT confirmation, it’s also a belief. 
 

3)  Jesus was born and raised a Jew, so by the religious tenets of the Jews he committed blasphemy by claiming himself both the Son of God and Messiah. The Bible says during one event some Jews even tried to stone him for that transgression, BUT HE RAN AWAY. Doesn’t sound much like he’s either to me. 
 

4)  Jesus claimed to have come to FULFILL the law, so tell me where in the Bible is blasphemy against one’s own God a fulfilling of the law? 
 

cormac

Cormac:

Using your logic, the rest of us can safely assume that you don't believe that the former US Presidents such as George Washington and Abraham Lincoln did not exist; correct?

Alter2Ego

[jmccr8]

1 hour ago, Alter2Ego said:

Cormac:

Using your logic, the rest of us can safely assume that you don't believe that the former US Presidents such as George Washington and Abraham Lincoln did not exist; correct?

Alter2Ego

HI Alter

You do realize George and Abe have plenty of documentation attesting to their existence. It must be lonely in an empty echo tunnel. 

[+Link of Hyrule]

17 hours ago, eight bits said:

Confident assertion that there was no historical Jesus whatsoever is a minority position, even within the community of "non-believers."

It is certainly a minority position among academics. Among mainstream views, the belief that Jesus doesn't exist is one that has been growing outside of academia, with something like 40% of people in England believing he didn't exist. Technically 40% is still a minority, but it's fair to say that among non-academics, the view that Jesus didn't exist is quite common and 40% isn't what I would call a "minority" view" in the context of this question. 

Among academics and scholars who have devoted their life to the study of the ancient near East, that's a different kettle of fish altogether, and I would agree with you that it's definitely a minority position among academics. In fact, I don't think there's a single academic studying the Ancient Near East that would agree that Jesus never existed, and that's including the non-Christian academics in the field. There are some non-university employed academics like Richard Carrier, but even he is happy to admit he is on the fringe when it comes to his views. 

[Alchopwn]

9 hours ago, Ell said:

There is no evidence whatsoever that Jesus had a mouth nor airways.

On the contrary, I think we can suggest that Jesus was likely a real person, but for me, the question is whether he was more the direct descendent of God than David Koresh or Penn F. Jillette.

[eight bits]

4 hours ago, Link of Hyrule said:

It is certainly a minority position among academics. Among mainstream views, the belief that Jesus doesn't exist is one that has been growing outside of academia, with something like 40% of people in England believing he didn't exist. Technically 40% is still a minority, but it's fair to say that among non-academics, the view that Jesus didn't exist is quite common and 40% isn't what I would call a "minority" view" in the context of this question. 

OK, there are two issues there: the split between public attitudes and the academic ("guild") consensus, and the dimensions of the public attitude.

The survey you are talking about is the "Talking Jesus" poll from 2015, for which there was an update in 2022:

https://talkingjesus.org/research

People were asked what I still think is the neatest general purpose formulation of the historicity problem (paraphrased here): which best describes your belief about Jesus: a real person who actually lived, a mythical or fictional character, or don't know?

In 2015, the "40%" referred to mythical or fictional plus don't know (= people who didn't say he was a real person). The percentage who expressed "the belief that Jesus doesn't exist" was only 22%. That's a minority. The corrresponding figure for 2022 was 28% (!), still fairly described as a minority view, but an impressive uptick over seven years, IMO.

This contrasts with academia where there is hardly any constituency for an entirely fictional or mythological Jesus.

Which brings us to a limitation of these data. An academic will likely distinguish between the "Jesus of Faith" (a.k.a. "Gospel Jesus") and the "Jesus of History." The latter is conceived of as a real man who actually lived, but different from the superstar who attracted the huge crowds to witness the impossible feats featured in the gospels. In fact, the real man (if any) was probably a relative non-entity, maybe a wandering preacher, or rabble-rouser, or mentally disturbed street person, or this or that ... but not someone whose accurate biography is recorded in the gospels. And as for those gospels, they are fictional and mythological literature on their face.

I conjecture that among the general public, the 22% or 28% combines both those people who are describing their beliefs about Gospel Jesus as well as those who focus on the more basic question about the Jesus of History, whether or not there was a single specific "patient zero" of the movement that became Christianity. I doubt the sponsors of the poll (e.g. the Church of England) care much about that distinction in the population, and maybe hardly anybody else does either (see, for example, @Alchopwn's post just above).

So, the gulf between the guild and the general public may not be so wide after all: maybe they share agreement that at least for academic historical purposes, the gospel Jesus is heavily fictionalized or mythologized. Maybe typical non-specialists simply aren't interested in whether or not there was some real man about whom little or nothing factual has been preserved.

ETA: If the thread does continue, I might come back to the academic consensus issues. Meanwhile, although it is true that the "Doherty-Carrier" hypothesis is probably the most visible mythicist conjecture these days, I personally don't think much of it, and freely confess that I find Carrier ... um, unsavory at the personal level. But with effort, I try to focus on the message, and the evidence bearing on it, and not get upset about the messenger.

Edited September 3, 2024 by eight bits

[+Sherapy]

On 9/1/2024 at 5:10 PM, Alter2Ego said:

A favorite argument by non-believers is that Jesus Christ's existence is confined to the pages of the Judeo-Christian Bible.   When presented with documentary evidence of his historical existence, Bible critics then use another ploy: they attack the credibility of those who confirmed the existence of Jesus Christ and/or they attack the credibility of what was written about Jesus Christ.

 

Below are three non-Christians from the 1st Century AD who mentioned Jesus Christ in their secular writings. The questions for debate are at the end of this post

 

PERSON #1:

Name and Occupation: Cornelius Tacitus, Roman Historian

DOB to Date of Death: A.D. 55 to A.D. 120

Attitude Towards Christianity: Hostile

What He Said: He confirmed that CHRISTUS (a common misspelling of Christ at the time) was executed by Pilate. 

 

PERSON #2:

Name and Occupation: Flavius Josephus, Jewish Historian

DOB to Date of Death: 37 AD -- Died after 100 AD

Attitude Towards Christianity: Apathetic (could care less about them)

What He Said: He confirmed that Christ who performed miracles was executed by Pilate.

 

Highlights on Flavius Josephus: A Jewish historian of priestly and royal ancestry who recorded Jewish history, with special emphasis on the 1st century AD (the century in which Jesus Christ lived and died).

 

PERSON #3:

Name and Occupation: Pliny The Younger (born Gaius Plinius Caecilius Secundus), Roman Governor

DOB to Date of Death: 61 AD to 112 AD

Attitude Towards Christianity: Hostile. He executed Christians

What He Said: Referred to Jesus Christ as a "god of the Christians."

 

Highlights on Pliny: Pliny condemned Men, Women, and children to death if they refused to curse Christ and if they refused to deny they were Christians.

 

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:

A.  All three of the individuals described above were people in powerful positions who were anti-Christian and belonged to groups that actively killed Christians.  All three individuals belonged to organizations that were responsible for Jesus' death.  What did they have to gain from mentioning the existence of Jesus Christ in their writings--thereby confirming his historical existence?

 

B.   Flavius Josephus, a Jew, was born a mere four years after Jesus was executed. He became a Jewish Pharisee as an adult, in addition to becoming a respected historian and advisor to the Roman emperor. Do you see anything significant to his being a Pharisee, a historian, and Roman emperor advisor--and the fact that he mentioned Jesus Christ in his writings?

 

C.    Cornelius Tactitus was known as the greatest historian of his time, during which he lived through the reign of over a half-dozen Roman emperors. Do you see anything significant to his resume and the fact that he mentioned Jesus Christ in his writings?

We have an excellent thread on this topic, some really savvy posters contributed. It is an interesting topic.

 

[fred_mc]

Hmmm, three mentions of Jesus outside of the Bible ... I've only read about one mention before, and that historians think it is fake, added later. Historians still think that Jesus has existed though, and I believe the historians.

The original poster calls Christus a misspelling of Christ. I don't think it is a misspelling. The English spelling is not the only spelling. In Swedish, we spell it Kristus.

[eight bits]

4 hours ago, fred_mc said:

The original poster calls Christus a misspelling of Christ. I don't think it is a misspelling. The English spelling is not the only spelling. In Swedish, we spell it Kristus.

It is originally a Greek word written in the Greek alphabet, Χριστός, and so it has no 'correct' spelling in Latin letters, just several possible transliterations. I have no idea why the OP thinks Christus is a mistake, and even a common mistake she says. Assuming authenticity, Tacitus was writing in the Latin language, and Christus is a fine transliteration into that tongue.

Edited September 4, 2024 by eight bits

[Abramelin]

2 hours ago, eight bits said:

It is originally a Greek word written in the Greek alphabet, Χριστός, and so it has no 'correct' spelling in Latin letters, just several possible transliterations. I have no idea why the OP thinks Christus is a mistake, and even a common mistake she says. Assuming authenticity, Tacitus was writing in the Latin language, and Christus is a fine transliteration into that tongue.

Hello Eight,

Ages ago I bought this book:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jesus_Scroll

I'm rereading it now after all these years.

Did you ever read it?

[Piney]

25 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Hello Eight,

Ages ago I bought this book:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jesus_Scroll

I'm rereading it now after all these years.

Did you ever read it?

I think that's the reference @Alchopwn was trying to remember because that's his theory too. 

[Abramelin]

5 minutes ago, Piney said:

I think that's the reference @Alchopwn was trying to remember because that's his theory too. 

In which thread did Al try to remember this book?

[Piney]

26 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

In which thread did Al try to remember this book?

He has the same theory and said it in numerous threads. But he couldn't remember the book title and I don't remember the specific threads.

 

[Abramelin]

52 minutes ago, Piney said:

He has the same theory and said it in numerous threads. But he couldn't remember the book title and I don't remember the specific threads.

 

I used this site's search tool. The term I used was 'Masada' and the writer "alchopwn". I got like 6 hits where Al mentions Masada, Josephus, and Jesus as an old man dying by his own hands at Masada.

Ok @Alchopwn

where are you?

[Piney]

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

I used this site's search tool. The term I used was 'Masada' and the writer "alchopwn". I got like 6 hits where Al mentions Masada, Josephus, and Jesus as an old man dying by his own hands at Masada.

Ok @Alchopwn

where are you?

It's mid morning here. 

[Abramelin]

48 minutes ago, Piney said:

It's mid morning here. 

That's what you get when you're retired, lol.

Time? What's that?

[Piney]

5 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

That's what you get when you're retired, lol.

Time? What's that?

Even though I'm retired, I can't break the up at 3 am cycle. 😬

[Abramelin]

36 minutes ago, Piney said:

Even though I'm retired, I can't break the up at 3 am cycle. 😬

Btw., if you create a free account, you can read the book here:

https://archive.org/details/jesusscrolltimeb0000dono/mode/1up?view=theater

[eight bits]

4 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Did you ever read it?

No. It's a new one on me (the Masada part; other aspects like surviving the crucifixion or having a child or children with Mary Magdalene show up in other "alternative histories").

Did you find the book credible? (If it is the book that @Alchopwn uses, then maybe a thread-within-a-thread would be fun?)

[Ell]

Jesus was a concept, an idea. Jesus was not a being of flesh and blood. Neither were his disciples.

[Abramelin]

13 minutes ago, eight bits said:

No. It's a new one on me (the Masada part; other aspects like surviving the crucifixion or having a child or children with Mary Magdalene show up in other "alternative histories").

Did you find the book credible? (If it is the book that @Alchopwn uses, then maybe a thread-within-a-thread would be fun?)

Credible...

If it was just nonsense, why did Joyce receive many death threats?

As far as I know Dan Brown with his Jesus fictions, or the Monty Python ("Life of Brian") crew never received death threats.

 

Edited September 4, 2024 by Abramelin

[eight bits]

11 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

If it was just nonsense, why did Joyce receive many death threats?

I don't know why people threaten strangers with death for saying or writing disagreeable things.

Anyway, it is amusing to think that the OP may get her historical Jesus, but not the one she bargained for.

[Abramelin]

2 hours ago, eight bits said:

Anyway, it is amusing to think that the OP may get her historical Jesus, but not the one she bargained for.

If Joyce's book is not fiction, then we know the guy's true name:

Joshuah Ben Ya'akob Ben Gennesaret.

And to find out if someone wrote about this 'Jesus', I googled the name. I expected to find nothing at all, or end up on the Wiki page of "The Jesus Scroll" I posted the link to earlier.

To my surprise I found this:

https://www.lulu.com/shop/geoffrey-scott-baker/joshuah-ben-yaakob-ben-gennesaret/ebook/product-17gz55zn.html?page=1&pageSize=4

 

Apparently someone got inspired by Joyce's book to write a novel about this Joshua/Jesus.

Edited September 4, 2024 by Abramelin

[Antigonos]

4 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Credible...

If it was just nonsense, why did Joyce receive many death threats?

As far as I know Dan Brown with his Jesus fictions, or the Monty Python ("Life of Brian") crew never received death threats.

 

Neither did Henry Lincoln and Michael Bagient who wrote Holy Blood, Holy Grail, where Brown got his ideas from.