Adultery to be decriminalised in the State of New York

[MrAnderson]

https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/central-ny/politics/2024/07/09/bill-decriminalizing-adultery-awaits-ny-governor-s-signature

Quote

Committing adultery is a violation of the Ten Commandments according to the Bible, but many people are unaware it is also a Class B Misdemeanor in New York state.

Assemblymember Chuck Lavine, D-Glen Cove, said even when lawmakers enacted the legislation in 1907, it was controversial.

Quote

However, the state Legislature did pass a bill this session to repeal adultery as a crime and it is awaiting the governor's signature. Lavine, who sponsored it, believes it is important to send a message to New Yorkers about the direction of the state

 

And from another source

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/news/2024/03/24/new-york-state-legalise-adultery/

Quote

Adultery is set to become legal in the state of New York with politicians poised to scrap the crime of infidelity among married people.  New York is one of 16 states where marital cheating is still a criminal offence. Adultery is still classed as a felony in Oklahoma, Wisconsin and Michigan.  Adultery, which has been on the books since 1907, is a misdemeanour with a maximum penalty of a $500 fine or 90 days in jail.

 

Believe it or not adultery is still an offence in a number of states and I suppose that some legislators, judges, and members of the public, are in favor of punishing people who commit the crime of adultery.

So the question is whether the state should have any business in regulating the sexual relationships between consenting adults. This tradition has long been abandoned in most places in the Western World but it does exist in other places where you can go to jail or even be executed for committing adultery.

Edited September 12 by MrAnderson

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

I hear there was a massive sigh of relief from the direction of Mar-a-Largo....

[Alchopwn]

5 hours ago, MrAnderson said:

Believe it or not adultery is still an offence in a number of states and I suppose that some legislators, judges, and members of the public, are in favor of punishing people who commit the crime of adultery.

I think Adultery should be kept on the books and prosecuted more rigorously.  It is the cause of a great many social problems.  If you can't keep your marriage vows, don't you dare get married imo.

Edited September 12 by Alchopwn

[the13bats]

46 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

I think Adultery should be kept on the books and prosecuted more rigorously.  It is the cause of a great many social problems.  If you can't keep your marriage vows, don't you dare get married imo.

Very much so, do we sound old fashioned?

It should be a felony and grounds for divorce where victim keeps everything, if you wanna shack up dump your spouse first.

[MrAnderson]

13 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

I think Adultery should be kept on the books and prosecuted more rigorously.  It is the cause of a great many social problems.  If you can't keep your marriage vows, don't you dare get married imo.

But what if people are unhappy in the marriages and don't want to be engaged with the person they are currently have a relationship with. They are most likely to have sexual relationships with other people outside their marriage. Does the state have a say in what consenting adults are choosing to do with their lives?

[Alchopwn]

On 9/13/2024 at 6:54 AM, MrAnderson said:

But what if people are unhappy in the marriages and don't want to be engaged with the person they are currently have a relationship with. They are most likely to have sexual relationships with other people outside their marriage. Does the state have a say in what consenting adults are choosing to do with their lives?

Well, frankly, I don't care what happens to them.  They're @ssholes for swearing an oath of lifelong commitment that they now think they want to wriggle out of.  They can get a divorce, and I think the law should see them prosecuted for breaking their oath, and they should get a lousy deal from the courts for behaving like scum.

Edited September 14 by Alchopwn

[Portre]

On 9/11/2024 at 10:41 PM, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

I hear there was a massive sigh of relief from the direction of Mar-a-Largo....

Explains the move

[Portre]

6 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Well, frankly, I don't care what happens to them.  They're @ssholes for swearing an oath of lifelong commitment that they now think they want to wriggle out of.  They can get a divorce, and I think the law should see them prosecuted for breaking their oath, and they should get a lousy deal from the courts for behaving like scum.

Bar them from holding public office. If they break one oath, they'll break more, like upholding the Constitution.

[Tatetopa]

Are you guys just persecuting Evangelical preachers?  

[MrAnderson]

On 9/14/2024 at 10:07 AM, Alchopwn said:

Well, frankly, I don't care what happens to them.  They're @ssholes for swearing an oath of lifelong commitment that they now think they want to wriggle out of.  They can get a divorce, and I think the law should see them prosecuted for breaking their oath, and they should get a lousy deal from the courts for behaving like scum.

Unlikely to happen in the States or in the Western World in the 21st century. The very common practise is a divorce and it's very popular among young people or even older in this modern era.

[MrAnderson]

On 9/14/2024 at 4:09 PM, Portre said:

Bar them from holding public office. If they break one oath, they'll break more, like upholding the Constitution.

Not a great argument I would say. You have extrapolated from what happened in one specific case and applied to everything else.

[Opus Magnus]

Adultery as a misdemeanor has little effect anyway.  Divorce can affect not only one family, but two.  This makes the culprit of adultery guilty of destroying two families.  The children of divorced homes face a myriad of extra problems in life.  Divorce has become more prevalent in industrialized societies which find less value in marriage¹.

Since the Industrial Revolution in the late 1700s societies initially saw a boom in population, but this boom did not last.  After the boom there was a decrease in birth rates.  The Industrial Revolution saw a migration from rural agriculture into urban factories, and the usefulness of having large families decreased.  It was no longer profitable to have many children to do farm work, but children had started to become a cost.  This led many to seek birth control and limit family sizes in order to lower costs on their households in the 1800s.  Marital values also diminished with shift-work, because of long hours at the factory.  This led to people seeking other forms of relationships outside of marriage.  This was especially so in communist Russia which had a bloody campaign to remove farmers from their land and migrate people into the factories.  Marriage rates in the United States peaked during World War II, and began a steep decline in the 1960s².

 

1. Brian D'Onofrio and Robert Emery. "Parental divorce or separation and children's mental health," World Psychiatry 18, no. 1 (January 2019): 100-101. 10.1002/wps.20590

2. Justin Wolfers. "Marriage and Divorce Since World War II: Analyzing the Role of Technological Progress on the Formation of Households," Journal of Economic Perspectives 21, no. 2 (Spring 2007): 27-52. http://users.nber.org/~jwolfers/papers/Comments/CommentsGreenwoodGuner.pdf

Edited September 17 by Opus Magnus

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

19 minutes ago, Opus Magnus said:

Adultery as a misdemeanor has little effect anyway.  Divorce can affect not only one family, but two.  This makes the culprit of adultery guilty of destroying two families.  The children of divorced homes face a myriad of extra problems in life.  Divorce has become more prevalent in industrialized societies which find less value in marriage¹.

Since the Industrial Revolution in the late 1700s societies initially saw a boom in population, but this boom did not last.  After the boom there was a decrease in birth rates.  The Industrial Revolution saw a migration from rural agriculture into urban factories, and the usefulness of having large families decreased.  It was no longer profitable to have many children to do farm work, but children had started to become a cost.  This led many to seek birth control and limit family sizes in order to lower costs on their households in the 1800s.  Marital values also diminished with shift-work, because of long hours at the factory.  This led to people seeking other forms of relationships outside of marriage.  This was especially so in communist Russia which had a bloody campaign to remove farmers from their land and migrate people into the factories.  Marriage rates in the United States peaked during World War II, and began a steep decline in the 1960s².

 

1. Brian D'Onofrio and Robert Emery. "Parental divorce or separation and children's mental health," World Psychiatry 18, no. 1 (January 2019): 100-101. 10.1002/wps.20590

2. Justin Wolfers. "Marriage and Divorce Since World War II: Analyzing the Role of Technological Progress on the Formation of Households," Journal of Economic Perspectives 21, no. 2 (Spring 2007): 27-52. http://users.nber.org/~jwolfers/papers/Comments/CommentsGreenwoodGuner.pdf

What happened in the late 70s to cause the rise in divorces and drop in marriages?

[Opus Magnus]

Just now, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

What happened in the late 70s to cause the rise in divorces and drop in marriages?

The Vietnam War.

[MrAnderson]

2 hours ago, Opus Magnus said:

Adultery as a misdemeanor has little effect anyway.  Divorce can affect not only one family, but two.  This makes the culprit of adultery guilty of destroying two families.  The children of divorced homes face a myriad of extra problems in life.  Divorce has become more prevalent in industrialized societies which find less value in marriage¹.

Since the Industrial Revolution in the late 1700s societies initially saw a boom in population, but this boom did not last.  After the boom there was a decrease in birth rates.  The Industrial Revolution saw a migration from rural agriculture into urban factories, and the usefulness of having large families decreased.  It was no longer profitable to have many children to do farm work, but children had started to become a cost.  This led many to seek birth control and limit family sizes in order to lower costs on their households in the 1800s.  Marital values also diminished with shift-work, because of long hours at the factory.  This led to people seeking other forms of relationships outside of marriage.  This was especially so in communist Russia which had a bloody campaign to remove farmers from their land and migrate people into the factories.  Marriage rates in the United States peaked during World War II, and began a steep decline in the 1960s².

 

1. Brian D'Onofrio and Robert Emery. "Parental divorce or separation and children's mental health," World Psychiatry 18, no. 1 (January 2019): 100-101. 10.1002/wps.20590

2. Justin Wolfers. "Marriage and Divorce Since World War II: Analyzing the Role of Technological Progress on the Formation of Households," Journal of Economic Perspectives 21, no. 2 (Spring 2007): 27-52. http://users.nber.org/~jwolfers/papers/Comments/CommentsGreenwoodGuner.pdf

Anyone can tell you that adultery is a religious term that is considered a sin in all abrahamic religions. Can a sin be reflected in law? And what business the state has to intervene in the personal and sexual relationships between consenting adults?

[Alchopwn]

6 hours ago, MrAnderson said:

Unlikely to happen in the States or in the Western World in the 21st century.

The 21st century is going to change.  Marriage is nearly dead as an institution.

[Michelle]

On 9/14/2024 at 12:09 PM, Portre said:

Bar them from holding public office. If they break one oath, they'll break more, like upholding the Constitution.

We'd have a completely different history if that was the case. A great many of our presidents have been adulterers.

[Opus Magnus]

3 hours ago, MrAnderson said:

Anyone can tell you that adultery is a religious term that is considered a sin in all abrahamic religions. Can a sin be reflected in law? And what business the state has to intervene in the personal and sexual relationships between consenting adults?

The concept of adultery can be seen in all cultures, and is not explicitly religious.  In ancient Egypt a man had to propose to a woman's father in order to marry her¹.  There was also a dowry the husband would pay to marry his wife².  The husband was also required to give a certain amount of money to his wife if he chose to divorce her³.  These were all written into Egyptian law, and evolved over time.  There are barely any religious texts on it, it is mostly legal⁴. 

These laws were set in place to keep civilization upright and uncorrupt. A father had to be asked permission in order to have his daughter's hand in marriage, and this safeguarded their family from abuse.  A man had to pay a dowry, and this meant he owned his wife.  In case of divorce a man had to pay his wife money, which safeguarded the woman.  Marriage in ancient society was seen as a right, offered protection, and was not available to everyone.

Ancient Greece had marriage laws as well.  In Greece marriage was arranged between a man and a woman's father as well.  In Athens she could not be given away to someone who was an ascendant or descendant, which prevented incest.  After 451 BC, it was illegal for anyone other than Athenian citizens to marry in Athens⁵.

Adultery is more of a legal term than a religious term.

1. P. W. Pestman, Marriage and Matrimonial Property in Ancient Egypt: A Contribution to Establishing the Legal Position of the Woman (Leiden, Netherlands: Netherlands Organization for the Advancement of Pure Research, 1961), 11-12, https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=re8eEAAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PP3&dq=ancient+marriage&ots=zq2fqXgwti&sig=bD58phWbPffrJ60eHd1lcueXKLA#v=onepage&q=ancient marriage&f=false

2. P.W. Pestman, Marriage and Matrimonial Property in Ancient Egypt, 16

3. P.W. Pestman, Marriage and Matrimonial Property in Ancient Egypt, 15

4. P.W. Pestman, Marriage and Matrimonial Property in Ancient Egypt, 6

5. D.M. MacDowell, "Marriage Law, Greek," Oxford Classical Dictionary, March 7, 2016, https://doi.org/10.1093/acrefore/9780199381135.013.3981

[MrAnderson]

2 hours ago, Opus Magnus said:

The concept of adultery can be seen in all cultures, and is not explicitly religious.  In ancient Egypt a man had to propose to a woman's father in order to marry her¹.  There was also a dowry the husband would pay to marry his wife².  The husband was also required to give a certain amount of money to his wife if he chose to divorce her³.  These were all written into Egyptian law, and evolved over time.  There are barely any religious texts on it, it is mostly legal⁴. 

These laws were set in place to keep civilization upright and uncorrupt. A father had to be asked permission in order to have his daughter's hand in marriage, and this safeguarded their family from abuse.  A man had to pay a dowry, and this meant he owned his wife.  In case of divorce a man had to pay his wife money, which safeguarded the woman.  Marriage in ancient society was seen as a right, offered protection, and was not available to everyone.

Ancient Greece had marriage laws as well.  In Greece marriage was arranged between a man and a woman's father as well.  In Athens she could not be given away to someone who was an ascendant or descendant, which prevented incest.  After 451 BC, it was illegal for anyone other than Athenian citizens to marry in Athens⁵.

Adultery is more of a legal term than a religious term.

1. P. W. Pestman, Marriage and Matrimonial Property in Ancient Egypt: A Contribution to Establishing the Legal Position of the Woman (Leiden, Netherlands: Netherlands Organization for the Advancement of Pure Research, 1961), 11-12, https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=re8eEAAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PP3&dq=ancient+marriage&ots=zq2fqXgwti&sig=bD58phWbPffrJ60eHd1lcueXKLA#v=onepage&q=ancient marriage&f=false

2. P.W. Pestman, Marriage and Matrimonial Property in Ancient Egypt, 16

3. P.W. Pestman, Marriage and Matrimonial Property in Ancient Egypt, 15

4. P.W. Pestman, Marriage and Matrimonial Property in Ancient Egypt, 6

5. D.M. MacDowell, "Marriage Law, Greek," Oxford Classical Dictionary, March 7, 2016, https://doi.org/10.1093/acrefore/9780199381135.013.3981

I will agree with the historical references and thanks for taking the time to post the links. What I don't agree with is that adultery is more of a legal term than a religious term. From what we know adultery is a religious term and concept which sometimes is incorporated in law.

[preacherman76]

10 hours ago, MrAnderson said:

Anyone can tell you that adultery is a religious term that is considered a sin in all abrahamic religions. Can a sin be reflected in law? And what business the state has to intervene in the personal and sexual relationships between consenting adults?

So is murder. 
 

I don’t think anyone should face punishment by the state for adultery. Nor do I believe anyone does. It’s an old law that isn’t practiced. 
 

I will say though, the state should remove its incentives to divorce. No fault divorce, permanent alimony, heck any alimony should be off the table for adulterers. Should be off the table for women or men who wake up one day and decide to destroy their families because they aren’t happy. 

[MrAnderson]

2 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

So is murder. 
 

I don’t think anyone should face punishment by the state for adultery. Nor do I believe anyone does. It’s an old law that isn’t practiced. 
 

I will say though, the state should remove its incentives to divorce. No fault divorce, permanent alimony, heck any alimony should be off the table for adulterers. Should be off the table for women or men who wake up one day and decide to destroy their families because they aren’t happy. 

That's what I think too. The state has no business in the sex lives of consenting adults.

When one decides to walk away from their marriage the state can't do anything about it. If you don't wish to be there anymore you cannot be forced to be there anymore regardless of whether you have other sexual relationships with outside of your marriage.

[+Liquid Gardens]

On 9/14/2024 at 6:07 AM, Alchopwn said:

They're @ssholes for swearing an oath of lifelong commitment that they now think they want to wriggle out of.  They can get a divorce, and I think the law should see them prosecuted for breaking their oath, and they should get a lousy deal from the courts for behaving like scum.

Civil ceremonies I don't believe require any 'oaths' or 'vows'.