whoa182 Posted April 15, 2005 #51 Share Posted April 15, 2005 (edited) Some people here need to read the book, "Show Me God", authored by Fred Heeren. He shows that if there is NOT a supreme being, then we are here by chances so remote, that it would be the equivalent of winning the lottery not once....not twice....not three times.....but over a trillion times in a row. His book is absolutely amazing. It's all fact and from an astronomical point of view. It's not just one HUGE piece of evidence that explains it all, but a TON of pieces of evidence that explains it all. For instance........... A group of the foremost astrophysicists got together with one admonition. That they would not leave the table until they came up with the most plausible explanation as to how our universe began. Using the "Big Bang" theory, as almost all scientists do, they agreed that the universe started at an infinitely small point. A singularity. These are the same things that reside at the very center of a black hole. A point where the known laws of physics completely break down. There is no space. There is no time at this point. But the main law of physics is that you can't get something out of nothing. But that is precisely how the universe began. This is the only logical conclusion they could come up with. And the conclusion to that? They left the table with one solution. The only way that something (the universe) could be created out of nothing at all, would be if some super-inteligent being had created it to begin with. We're not talking about aliens here. We're talking about an intelligence that, at the snap of a finger, was able to create the entire universe we live in. And if that isn't enough for you......I'll give you even more evidence. In every single computerized model that has been run on accrection theory, the moon shouldn't exist at all. Is it merely a freak of the cosmos? A cosmological winning lottery ticket? Maybe. But there's more. A total eclipse. When one happens, the moon in the sky is the exact same size as the sun in the sky. Now, the chances of this are absolutely astronomical. (pun indended) But it goes even further than that. The moon has been slowly and steadily moving away from the Earth. It is NOT in an orbit that causes it to remain at the same distance. It never has been. 65 million years ago, if you were to look up in the sky, the moon would be much larger in the night sky than it is now. And 65 million years ago, total eclipses were more common. Why? Because the moon in the sky was much larger than the sun was. But now we get to the point in Earth's history where there is intelligent life on this planet. Indeed, the first ones to even notice an eclipse of the sun. And what do we have? The human race, in geological terms, is a mere speck on the time chart. 1/100,000,000th of our planet's history. But the moon has been around for at least 2/3 of our planet's history. So how is it, that if the moon has been around for so long, that it is just now, at the dawning of intelligence on this planet, able to perfectly eclipse the sun in the sky? And if you don't understand what I mean by perfectly, I mean PERFECTLY. To a millionth of a degree. That didn't happen until intelligence on this planet developed. Do you understand the odds of this happening? They are SO ASTRONOMICAL that they couldn't even be calculated. 573050[/snapback] Although I agree with some of the points you raise here and are quite true. But its also best not to jump to conclusions and say " god did it " lets forget about it. That is not going to help anyone. The numbers are troubling, even for athiest scientists. Some physisists dont believe in god but they realize how impossible it would be for things like cosmological constant to be right on the number. it would be like picking 1 special grain of sand ( blindfolded ) out of all of the beaches on earth. Howcan it be down to chance? Thats the question we are trying to answer. I believe we will answer it one day. Its just pure lazy to just say " god did everything " . now what? Edited April 15, 2005 by whoa182 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellar Posted April 15, 2005 #52 Share Posted April 15, 2005 And the only way we could be created by some grand design is if there were a grand designer. Explain to me, why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larving Posted April 15, 2005 #53 Share Posted April 15, 2005 According to Unwin, the question of God's existence is simply a matter of statistics - and there is a two-in-three chance that God is real. The doctor, however, says he personally is 95 percent certain God exists.566939[/snapback] And if he had been a sceptic the numbers would be totally different. Personal I don't believe in god. I have asked him for one thing in my life, and I didn't get it. I'm not going to say what it was, because it's personal. (It wasn't something like money/love/possesions or something big like world peace.) For me that's enough to show me that he don't exist. But if he do he can go to hell!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeking Posted April 16, 2005 #54 Share Posted April 16, 2005 we are here so of coarse our universe beat the odds....theres no telling how many times the universe failed to beat the odds because we were not here to observe it, for all we know this could be the millionth billionth zillionth time the universe spawned and it just so happens it spawned in our favor this time around...why is that far fetched to believe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperactive Posted April 16, 2005 #55 Share Posted April 16, 2005 we are here so of coarse our universe beat the odds....theres no telling how many times the universe failed to beat the odds because we were not here to observe it, for all we know this could be the millionth billionth zillionth time the universe spawned and it just so happens it spawned in our favor this time around...why is that far fetched to believe? 574144[/snapback] exactly. "odds" do not prove that there is a creator. Using a creator story to gloss over the vast amount we do not know is simply rediculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catrat Posted April 17, 2005 #56 Share Posted April 17, 2005 I find this to be a not very intelligent experiment. I don't see how finding the factors of good and evil promote or dissuade the existance of a god or gods. I am a firm believer that good and evil exist without higher power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Link of Hyrule Posted April 17, 2005 #57 Share Posted April 17, 2005 i dont like the whole starting the calculations off as 50/50 were as one half is god and the other half is science the calculations should be at least 25/75 in favor science were as the unverse could have came to be through at least 3 seperate ways: the big bang, a mutliverse "rubbing" against another multiverse, and/or even that the universe just has always been there the god probability is probably more like 37% 568182[/snapback] Let's play a game called spot the evolutionist.... If we're going to look at it that way, then maybe the probability should have been more like 90/10. The abundance of creation stories from other cultures and mythology. The traditional Christian God - Jesus; Yahweh (if you take the Jewish view that Jesus isn't related to Him); the Greek panthenon; the Egyptian deities; Krsna (Krishna); Baal.... just to name a few. All of these have creation stories. Three science theories vs virtually infinite creation stories - should the probability be higher? On another note though, the criteria for deciding the existence of God in the first place is flawed too. It stands to reason that if God creates all things then he creates the bad as well as the good. The assumption from a statement like this - weighing up the good and evil in this world - is that if God exists then he wants us all on this Earth to live happy lives free of pain. Obviously this is not the case. Don't mistake me here though, I'm not claiming that God is a sadistic maniac who wants us all to suffer horribly either. I'm making no judgment calls here based on my own beliefs, simply stating that the criteria is flawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeking Posted April 17, 2005 #58 Share Posted April 17, 2005 ok your not understanding, they are trying to see if the christian god is real...thats it, the god that is spoken of in the bible not god in general Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperactive Posted April 17, 2005 #59 Share Posted April 17, 2005 If we're going to look at it that way, then maybe the probability should have been more like 90/10. The abundance of creation stories from other cultures and mythology. The traditional Christian God - Jesus; Yahweh (if you take the Jewish view that Jesus isn't related to Him); the Greek panthenon; the Egyptian deities; Krsna (Krishna); Baal.... just to name a few. All of these have creation stories. Three science theories vs virtually infinite creation stories - should the probability be higher? have you ever read anything on the parallels of discovery? basically, givin the same preconditions, different groups will discover or create more or less the same things. creation/origin stories are common because the human mind wants to understand and the easiest way to explain it is to anthropmorhize it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellar Posted April 17, 2005 #60 Share Posted April 17, 2005 If we're going to look at it that way, then maybe the probability should have been more like 90/10. The abundance of creation stories from other cultures and mythology. The traditional Christian God - Jesus; Yahweh (if you take the Jewish view that Jesus isn't related to Him); the Greek panthenon; the Egyptian deities; Krsna (Krishna); Baal.... just to name a few. All of these have creation stories. Three science theories vs virtually infinite creation stories - should the probability be higher? So I suppose that the Christian version has only a very miniscule chance, among all others. Lets say that its a 1% chance, even though its lower. All beliefs have a 1% chance of being true that means. Evolution, however, is supported by evidence whereas these stories are not, hence the chances for evolution are higher. Also, I assume that the percentage gets raised even more since multiple cultures claim evolution also...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_hAiLO_ Posted April 17, 2005 #61 Share Posted April 17, 2005 What a mess SaRuMaN, you hit the spot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-La Posted April 18, 2005 #62 Share Posted April 18, 2005 I think at a certain point in history there may be more evil in the world (say like old testament time before the flood, if you like)? Does that disprove or prove anything? The point about this life, it seems to me, and if there is a God is, you wont be able to prove or disprove His existence so we can live out our nature with faith(to believe or disbelieve) and find out who we really are by our own definition at the end of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Link of Hyrule Posted April 19, 2005 #63 Share Posted April 19, 2005 So I suppose that the Christian version has only a very miniscule chance, among all others. Lets say that its a 1% chance, even though its lower. All beliefs have a 1% chance of being true that means. Evolution, however, is supported by evidence whereas these stories are not, hence the chances for evolution are higher. Also, I assume that the percentage gets raised even more since multiple cultures claim evolution also...? 576144[/snapback] I think I'm being misunderstood here. I'm not plugging a particular faith or agenda. I was simply pointing out an obviously flawed statement. Take for example the quote I've attached... I, the creationist will say that evolution, despite being widely taught in schools, is still ONLY A THEORY. Moreover, if we look at the facts of the person of Jesus Christ, not only from the Bible, but also from secular sources, then it is abundantly obvious that Jesus was no ordinary man, and had to be God. To which I, the evolutionist will reply that that is nonsense. The facts of evolution are clear. There is an obvious link. I, the creationist (conceding the point), still think it is only a theory, but it does not detract from the possibility of God. God may simply have chosen to work through evolution. What is not in dispute is that Jesus was special. He did many miracles. He healed the sick. And ultimately rose from the dead. I, the evolutionist argues that there are many reasons this could have been the case. Jesus' exploits could have been exaggerated. And if they weren't, he could have been a traveler from another planet with greater technology that made it look like he was performing miracles. That's preposterous, I the creationist yells. There's too much documented evidence that say these miracles were made up; and to say he's from outer space is ridiculous. The odds must be huge. The only logical answer is that Jesus was the Son of God. But not impossible, retorts I the evolutionist. Evolution MUST be true. I the creationist, and I the evolutionist both walk away from this discussion feeling smug that they have completely disproved the others beliefs and sure that anyone with more than a couple of brain cells would agree with them. Flawed statements litter this conversation. I - the creationist and I - the evolutionist will disagree and say that their statments aren't flawed. They are (at least their own) quite rational and well thought out. What makes statements flawed (or not)? One word - Faith. Until next time then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Link of Hyrule Posted April 19, 2005 #64 Share Posted April 19, 2005 I may have heard of him (referring to Jesus), there is no definite proof that he even existed or that he was god or son of god. 573325[/snapback] There's no proof that Jesus existed in that no-one alive today was around 2000 years ago to attest to the fact. That's to be expected. But there's more documented evidence for Jesus existing than there is for the existence of Alexander the Great. We all believe he existed, don't we? And this evidence isn't just from the Bible. Non biblical sources, such as the Historian Pliny the Younger and the Roman Governor Pontius Pilate wrote about him (Jesus). As for him being God... that all comes down to Faith. If you believe in Jesus, you'll say he is the Son of God. If you don't, then you won't. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellar Posted April 19, 2005 #65 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Umm... Im kind of confused as to what your text has to do with what I wrote... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Link of Hyrule Posted April 20, 2005 #66 Share Posted April 20, 2005 Umm... Im kind of confused as to what your text has to do with what I wrote... 578808[/snapback] Just pointing out that evolution is still only a theory - not, as you claim, supported by fact. It all comes down to what you believe. I'm not denying evolution. Not supporting it either. Just saying you can't make sweeping statements about it as fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellar Posted April 20, 2005 #67 Share Posted April 20, 2005 Just pointing out that evolution is still only a theory - not, as you claim, supported by fact. Umm, it is a theory supported by factual evidence... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_hAiLO_ Posted April 20, 2005 #68 Share Posted April 20, 2005 Umm, it is a theory supported by factual evidence... 579874[/snapback] Isn't there a word with that definition? I think its Scientific Law, but i'm not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellar Posted April 20, 2005 #69 Share Posted April 20, 2005 Umm, it is a theory supported by factual evidence... 579874[/snapback] Isn't there a word with that definition? I think its Scientific Law, but i'm not sure. 579954[/snapback] Well, scientific laws are supported by evidence too, but thats not what the definition reposes on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Link of Hyrule Posted April 20, 2005 #70 Share Posted April 20, 2005 Umm, it is a theory supported by factual evidence... 579874[/snapback] I'm not really familiar with the term "Scientific Law", but what I do know is that if the theory of evolution were supported by indisputable scientific evidence it would be known as the "Law of evolution". On a similar note, it can be said that Christianity also has basis in facts. Obviously not scientific fact, such as evolution can claim, but through the historical evidence that is available to us. There are facts to back up evolution... but no more than there are to prove Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellar Posted April 20, 2005 #71 Share Posted April 20, 2005 I'm not really familiar with the term "Scientific Law", but what I do know is that if the theory of evolution were supported by indisputable scientific evidence it would be known as the "Law of evolution". No... you see, the thing that doesnt really need supporting evidence is a hypothesis. A theory is just below a law... both theory and laws need sustaining evidence of some kind. A theory, although it has evidence supporting it, does not have enough evidence to be called an absolute. There are facts to back up evolution... but no more than there are to prove Christianity. There are very much more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Link of Hyrule Posted April 21, 2005 #72 Share Posted April 21, 2005 There are facts to back up evolution... but no more than there are to prove Christianity. There are very much more. 580600[/snapback] Thank you Stellar, for proving my point. This is a circular argument that no-one can sufficiently answer. God...... Science..... It all depends on what you believe. The "facts" will back up whichever you adhere to. Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Gj Philosophy Posted April 21, 2005 #73 Share Posted April 21, 2005 Wazzup!! Wazzzzzuppp!!! greetings my fellow earthlings and homo sapiens and human beings. gods, there are so many of them and 100% I believe they exist, i.e. from gambling lords to drug lords to war lords and ur land lord, and so on . . . . But, more than that 100% and multiply to Nth times to infinity there is only ONE True Almighty God, the true being of alpha and omega. He is the creator of All. He is the most high knowledge and greatest wisdom. He is the Almighty God of Abraham. He is the Almighty God of Prophet Mohammed. He is the Almighty God of my Lord Master Jesus Christ, the redeemer of this world. The 67% that god exists this is not the true almighty god, but the god of this world. Just remember there is no one or anybody in this world can prove the existence of the True Almighty God UNLESS you believe in the True Almighty God. If you only believe the greatness of this world and also believe only in the power of mankind there are no chances you or anybody can know the true existence of the True Almighty God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manticoreconfusion Posted April 21, 2005 #74 Share Posted April 21, 2005 theres only a few lords people know exist like druglords or lord of countries but people can belive if this *GOD* exists if they wish and those who dont shouldnt make things out of their religon i for one have no religon because i think none has a real history but i shalt meddle in peoples religons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liljellybean Posted April 27, 2005 #75 Share Posted April 27, 2005 Its rubbish really, god either exisists or he doesn't. Doing some research of my own the chance that God exsists is 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now