The Khafre Enigma Part II

[Thanos5150]

The original: The Khafre Enigma

Quote

Khafre, son of Khufu and successor of Djedefre, ruled roughly 26yrs, a year or two less than Khufu builder of the Great Pyramid (G1), and is credited with building the "2nd" (G2) or "middle" pyramid at Giza. Originally G2 stood 448ft tall with a base length of 706ft. By comparison G1 stood at 481ft with a base of 756ft. Though slightly smaller with notably less mass and complex interior, unlike G1 G2 used the much more difficult to work and time consuming granite casing for part of its height and employed numerous massive blocks along its base, some weighing upwards of 100 tons. It is said Khufu built G1 in approximately 20yrs, which at the very least would have included the mortuary temple, causeway, and valley temple, yet little consideration is given to the works of Khafre. 

While Khafre would also have built a mortuary temple, causeway, valley temple, and acres of massive paving stones, etc, adding to Khafre's workload vs Khufu's would not only have been the Sphinx with its enclosure and harbor, but also the cutting out enormous amounts of bedrock from the slope around the base of the pyramid including the use of a large in situ sections of it carved into the shape of courses, the use of massive blocks in both the valley and mortuary temples the likes of which the DE did not use prior (of after) with many in the 100 ton range (highly unlikely the same to have been used for G1's temples as they have completely disappeared), at least one weighing roughly 400 tons, the Sphinx Temple, and the magnificent granite component of the Valley Temple interior as well as completely encasing the exterior in granite. 

To give some context, the base of G2 is again 706ft. From the remaining granite casing we can guestimate the average width of a block at 4-5ft. So at say 150 per side this would require approximately 600 granite blocks to make one course. Antiquarian reports say the detritus of fallen stone, including granite, was over 30ft on some sides so we know the granite went up at least several courses. If we say the granite went to at least 15 courses, like G3, this would leave us needing about 7,000-9,000 granite blocks. 

But then there is not only the interior granite pillars, walls, doorways, and lintels of the interior of the Valley Temple, but also the sheathing of the exterior in granite including curved pieces to emulate the corniced roof of the serekh building: HERE which I assume ran at least across the front façade of the temple.  

Valley Temple Photo Gallery

While maybe "only" a few hundred pieces were needed for the temple, they are much larger than those used for the casing stones. 

All things being equal, while it seems readily apparent G2 by the numbers would have taken less time to build than G1, we are left to wonder how much extra by comparison would have been required for Khafre not only to work so extensively in granite, but also the out of character use of numerous massive megalithic temple and pyramid base blocks as well as the carving of the Sphinx and building the Sphinx Temple. As difficult as it is to accept a 20yr timeline for Khufu, to consider the works attributed to Khafre, regardless of the "inferiority" of his pyramid, we are still left with the same reservations of being able to complete these works within the timely reign of one pharaoh.  

The unresolved bookend to this: 

As an aside, it is curious that Djedefre is the son of Khufu, king perhaps only because of Kawab's premature death, who had at least 3 male heirs, Hornit, Baka, and Setka and yet the throne supposedly went to Khafre, another of Khufu's sons, upon his death and not one of his own sons. There is the nebulous Bikheris who may or may not have been a king of the 4th Dynasty which some have speculated this may have been Baka though this is all pretty loose. Manetho gives a reign of 22yrs, Eratosthenes 10yrs, and the Turin Canon 2yrs for an unnamed pharaoh which Bikheris is speculated to be the likely choice. Even more interesting is that the Saqqara King list has 5 pharaohs between Khafre and Userkaf where we only know of 2. If there were a king or kings between these pharaohs like Djedefre it stands to reason one of their heirs would have ascended the throne but again we have Khafre. 

For greater context Djedefre is thought to have ruled either 8, 11, or 22yrs which the latter two dates are tentatively most likely.  

So, the enigma is if the throne is passed supposedly on to the children, and pharaohs ruled in succession, given Djedefre was the pharaoh in-between Khufu and Khafre then how does Khafre become pharaoh and not one of Djedefre's sons? How does Djedefre's leaving Giza for Abu Roash play into this if at all? 

 

Edited September 19 by Thanos5150

[Thanos5150]

On 9/19/2024 at 10:22 AM, Thanos5150 said:

The original: The Khafre Enigma

The unresolved bookend to this: 

As an aside, it is curious that Djedefre is the son of Khufu, king perhaps only because of Kawab's premature death, who had at least 3 male heirs, Hornit, Baka, and Setka and yet the throne supposedly went to Khafre, another of Khufu's sons, upon his death and not one of his own sons. There is the nebulous Bikheris who may or may not have been a king of the 4th Dynasty which some have speculated this may have been Baka though this is all pretty loose. Manetho gives a reign of 22yrs, Eratosthenes 10yrs, and the Turin Canon 2yrs for an unnamed pharaoh which Bikheris is speculated to be the likely choice. Even more interesting is that the Saqqara King list has 5 pharaohs between Khafre and Userkaf where we only know of 2. If there were a king or kings between these pharaohs like Djedefre it stands to reason one of their heirs would have ascended the throne but again we have Khafre. 

For greater context Djedefre is thought to have ruled either 8, 11, or 22yrs which the latter two dates are tentatively most likely.  

So, the enigma is if the throne is passed supposedly on to the children, and pharaohs ruled in succession, given Djedefre was the pharaoh in-between Khufu and Khafre then how does Khafre become pharaoh and not one of Djedefre's sons? How does Djedefre's leaving Giza for Abu Roash play into this if at all? 

....Did I say Khafre? I meant Rupert the Atlantean. 

More to this scintillating story is Khufu son of Sneferu, Djedefre son of Khufu, Khafre son of Khufu etc is often just an assumption based on the premise the throne was passed from father to eldest son. Once again this is an invention of Manetho with the actual evidence and/or lack of evidence at times suggesting this was not always the case. Which isn't just for pharaohs with the relationships between many alleged family members also just loosely based assumptions. Sorry to disappoint, but no grand conspiracy here, its just very complicated with limited evidence to go by so adhering to established assumptions are required for any of this to make sense, but this is not to mean it is all "fact". Missing pharaohs, possible co-regents, picking non familial successors, even foreigners possibly getting into the mix. Several of the archeological mysteries of the 4 Dynasty may actually be solved by understanding familial issues.   

[Stokke]

Strange indeed.

Khufu, Djedefre, Khafre + Hordjedfra and Baufra.

We notice that the pedestals are different from the three kings vs. those of Hordjedfra and Baufra. Indicating that the former three achieved Kingship?

I agree with you - it is a mystery why Djedefre (or his family) would give the Kingdom back to his brother.

Edited September 21 by Stokke

[Antigonos]

I am reminded of your Khnum-Khufu musings and whether or not it might have been an instance of a co-regency. 

I’m going to reread your previous thread to remind myself of the details and respond over the next few days when I have time to write a response that will hopefully be at least slightly worthy of this material.

The archaeological questions still not definitively answered from the archaic and OK periods you’ve drawn my attention to I find endlessly intriguing. 

[Thanos5150]

Some food for thought:

Chronological problems of the IIIrd dynasty: a re-examination of the archaeological documents

The kings’ names mentioned in the historical sources [Palermo Stone Annals (Vth dynasty), King list of Saqqara and Abydos (New Kingdom), Turin Canon (New Kingdom), Manetho’s “Aegyptiaca” 3 (IIIrd century b.Ch.)] 4 are all different from those observed on the archaeological finds, which probably bear the Horus names while, from the beginning of the fourth dynasty, the sources contain the “nswt bity” names;

The historical sources also differ about the number of kings, their sequence and their names;

Only three royal funerary monuments of the IIIrd dynasty are known (Neterykhet’s Pyramid Complex at Saqqara, Sekhemkhet’s Unfinished Pyramid at Saqqara and Khaba’s Layer Pyramid at Zawiyet el-Aryan) 5 , while at least five Horus names (six if we consider Huni) 6 are preserved on the archaeological finds. Only the two Saqqara monuments can be attributed with certainty to their royal occupant 7

Consequently, a generally accepted sequence of kings has not yet been identified, nor has the total length of the dynasty (between 50 and 100 years in the theories advanced so far) been defined 1

The 2nd Dynasty is even worse. 

 

[Spiros]

On 9/19/2024 at 1:22 PM, Thanos5150 said:

The original: The Khafre Enigma

The unresolved bookend to this: 

As an aside, it is curious that Djedefre is the son of Khufu, king perhaps only because of Kawab's premature death, who had at least 3 male heirs, Hornit, Baka, and Setka and yet the throne supposedly went to Khafre, another of Khufu's sons, upon his death and not one of his own sons. There is the nebulous Bikheris who may or may not have been a king of the 4th Dynasty which some have speculated this may have been Baka though this is all pretty loose. Manetho gives a reign of 22yrs, Eratosthenes 10yrs, and the Turin Canon 2yrs for an unnamed pharaoh which Bikheris is speculated to be the likely choice. Even more interesting is that the Saqqara King list has 5 pharaohs between Khafre and Userkaf where we only know of 2. If there were a king or kings between these pharaohs like Djedefre it stands to reason one of their heirs would have ascended the throne but again we have Khafre. 

For greater context Djedefre is thought to have ruled either 8, 11, or 22yrs which the latter two dates are tentatively most likely.  

So, the enigma is if the throne is passed supposedly on to the children, and pharaohs ruled in succession, given Djedefre was the pharaoh in-between Khufu and Khafre then how does Khafre become pharaoh and not one of Djedefre's sons? How does Djedefre's leaving Giza for Abu Roash play into this if at all? 

 

My mountain pyramid theory helps to explain this. Some have speculated that the Sphinx is older than Khafre's or even Khufu's reign. The Sphinx is a great mystery because it proves beyond a doubt that ET visited Earth. This is based on the reasoning of Jewish-American Nobel Prize physicist Richard Feynman.  

Looking into the construction process of Sneferu I don't see him incorporating the Sphinx (alpha α) constant. Khufu does seem to incorporate it by building a geometrically and structurally precise pyramid, and defining thus the length of the royal cubit. Nonetheless, someone can consider that this is not directly linked to the Sphinx. More research needs to be done regarding this issue. But then comes Djedefre that uses the symbolism and exact placement of the Sphinx to plan his pyramid. This means that there is a possibility as proposed by some, see youtube video below that Djedefre built the Sphinx and carved the face of his father Khufu on it.

 

   

[Spiros]

Khafre encodes the Southern and Eastern directions in the placement of the cult pyramid and the axis of the Sphinx respectively. The cult pyramid represents a star and the Sphinx with the body of a lion represents the star Regulus. So the question that arises is what star does the cult pyramid symbolize?  In the Stellarium photo below I depict the alignment of different Orion stars with the South direction when Regulus is in the East. What changes is the observation point and the latitude of the place of observation. Is this an encoding that depicts a specific age? Due to the precession of the equinoxes, this orientation is lost when we change the age(year). In the landmarks posted, there is always a degree of error which varies. This epoch is not of IV dynasty Egypt.

 

Edited October 20 by Spiros

[Thanos5150]

On 10/20/2024 at 6:46 AM, Spiros said:

[snip]

Good grief Spiros. Read the room buddy. 

[Trelane]

On 10/20/2024 at 9:46 AM, Spiros said:

Khafre encodes the Southern and Eastern directions in the placement of the cult pyramid and the axis of the Sphinx respectively. The cult pyramid represents a star and the Sphinx with the body of a lion represents the star Regulus. So the question that arises is what star does the cult pyramid symbolize?  In the Stellarium photo below I depict the alignment of different Orion stars with the South direction when Regulus is in the East. What changes is the observation point and the latitude of the place of observation. Is this an encoding that depicts a specific age? Due to the precession of the equinoxes, this orientation is lost when we change the age(year). In the landmarks posted, there is always a degree of error which varies. This epoch is not of IV dynasty Egypt.

 

But where are the structures for his arm? Why didn't hey bother with that.🤣

*Runs out of the room dodging thrown copies of Fingerprints of the Gods

[Spiros]

2 hours ago, Trelane said:

But where are the structures for his arm? Why didn't hey bother with that.🤣

*Runs out of the room dodging thrown copies of Fingerprints of the Gods

Which one?

[Trelane]

31 minutes ago, Spiros said:

Which one?

I guess it would be the right arm holding the club.

Why isn't that captured by corresponding structures? Seems incomplete to me if one is to believe the theory.

[Spiros]

5 hours ago, Trelane said:

I guess it would be the right arm holding the club.

Why isn't that captured by corresponding structures? Seems incomplete to me if one is to believe the theory.

You have to keep in mind that the stars of the two arms are fainter than the 9 star depicted in the icon I posted, that is with the exception of the head star. The head star Meissa has an apparent magnitude of 3.5. The raised head stars fainter, between 4.3 and 4.95. The extended hand has Tabit with an apparent magnitude of 3.15. For them to encode Tabit they would have had to do it at Northern Europe. No real reason to go to this trouble for a star that is not bright. As for the raised hand you actually can pinpoint a temple that would align with the Easternmost stars f1 Orion and ξ Orion. This is the temple of Dakka close to lake Nasser.

 

But there is another reason that Tabit would not have been encoded. My theory was formed by noticing a line starting at mount Hermon the landing place of the fallen angels, to 7 mountains in Hellas(Greece). This was I was able to pin-point a 3 mountain triad that matches the 3 Giza pyramids. Mount Heron aligns with Bellatrix. The Khufu pyramid equivalent mountain is Parnassus. If one looks at the places I added to the Orion constellation he notices that Parnassus is missing. Why? Well with the help of Parnassus another triad of mountain is formed and this is with the Menkaure equivalent of  mount Taygetus. The top of mount Taygetos has the shape of a pyramid and this mountain corresponds to the brightest Orion star, the star that the ancient Egyptians called Sah(Rigel). Rigel is not only the Orion star that look the most bright as observed from Earth but it is the one that is truly more bright(absolute magnitude).    

 

I then found the African Egypt mountain triad that matches the 3 pyramids of Giza. But the tallest of these mountains which is the tallest mountain of African Egypt aligns with Saiph. 

Sais which aligns with Mintaka reminds us of Plato's books Timaios and Kritias and the Egyptian priest.

 

In my book I documented the mountain triad on the Sinai peninsula that matches the 3 Giza pyramids. So why isn't one of these encoded? Mount Sinai works pretty well but I investigated to see if there is a more accurate match. I thus was led to Mount Serbal. From Wiki:

 

Quote

Mount Serbal is a mountain located in Wadi Feiran in southern Sinai. At 6,791 ft high, it is the fifth highest mountain in Egypt. It is part of the St. Catherine National Park. It is thought by some to be the Biblical Mount Sinai. Among others this was claimed by Ludwig Schneller, because it fits best with the biblical tradition taking into account the route and speed of the Israelites and the surroundings of the mountain, as Rephidim is identified with Wadi Feiran.

 When Regulus is East, Alnitak when observed from Saint Catherine's Monastery Sinai has an azimuth of 180.24 degrees, where 180 degrees is due South. At mount Serbal the azimuth is 180.07 degrees.

 

We also notice the axis of stars that is formed from the head of Orion (stars λ Orion, φ1 Orion, φ2 Orion), the central belt star Alnilam, and the sword stars ι Orion, θ1 Orion. This axis defines a latitude between Memphis and Heliopolis. This range encompasses the Atlantis range which is between Saqqara and Abu Rowash. This range thus includes 3 III dynasty pyramids, 5 IV dynasty pyramid(including those of Giza) and a number of V dynasty pyramids.

 

Betelgeuse aligns with Aphroditopolis(Per-Hathor). This physically defines the bend of the Nile. One can thus look at how much of an error we have for Thebes which is close by. When Regulus is East as observed from the Karnak Temple of Thebes the azimuth of Betelgeuse is 179.32 degrees. The divergence is thus 0.68 degrees.

 

To understand what this means I have to point out that this might relate to a planetary alignment of 3 planets. This way we look at where we have to go so that we notice each one of these planets rise above the horizon.

 

The first planet aligns with mount Parnassus. The first planet thus aligns with the Khufu Pyramid mountain.

The second planet aligns with mount Serbal. The second planet thus aligns with the star Alnitak.

The third planet does not seem to align with a certain landmark. It crosses over Lake Nasser in Upper Egypt. The third planet is considerably fainter than the others. But we can "see"(through astronomy software) all three above the horizon in the East if we are stationed in a place like the Temple of Dakka.

 

           

[Thanos5150]

1 hour ago, Spiros said:

You have to keep in mind that the stars of the two arms are fainter than the 9 star depicted in the icon I posted, that is with the exception of the head star. The head star Meissa has an apparent magnitude of 3.5. The raised head stars fainter, between 4.3 and 4.95. The extended hand has Tabit with an apparent magnitude of 3.15. For them to encode Tabit they would have had to do it at Northern Europe. No real reason to go to this trouble for a star that is not bright. As for the raised hand you actually can pinpoint a temple that would align with the Easternmost stars f1 Orion and ξ Orion. This is the temple of Dakka close to lake Nasser.

 

But there is another reason that Tabit would not have been encoded. My theory was formed by noticing a line starting at mount Hermon the landing place of the fallen angels, to 7 mountains in Hellas(Greece). This was I was able to pin-point a 3 mountain triad that matches the 3 Giza pyramids. Mount Heron aligns with Bellatrix. The Khufu pyramid equivalent mountain is Parnassus. If one looks at the places I added to the Orion constellation he notices that Parnassus is missing. Why? Well with the help of Parnassus another triad of mountain is formed and this is with the Menkaure equivalent of  mount Taygetus. The top of mount Taygetos has the shape of a pyramid and this mountain corresponds to the brightest Orion star, the star that the ancient Egyptians called Sah(Rigel). Rigel is not only the Orion star that look the most bright as observed from Earth but it is the one that is truly more bright(absolute magnitude).    

 

I then found the African Egypt mountain triad that matches the 3 pyramids of Giza. But the tallest of these mountains which is the tallest mountain of African Egypt aligns with Saiph. 

Sais which aligns with Mintaka reminds us of Plato's books Timaios and Kritias and the Egyptian priest.

 

In my book I documented the mountain triad on the Sinai peninsula that matches the 3 Giza pyramids. So why isn't one of these encoded? Mount Sinai works pretty well but I investigated to see if there is a more accurate match. I thus was led to Mount Serbal. From Wiki:

 

 When Regulus is East, Alnitak when observed from Saint Catherine's Monastery Sinai has an azimuth of 180.24 degrees, where 180 degrees is due South. At mount Serbal the azimuth is 180.07 degrees.

 

We also notice the axis of stars that is formed from the head of Orion (stars λ Orion, φ1 Orion, φ2 Orion), the central belt star Alnilam, and the sword stars ι Orion, θ1 Orion. This axis defines a latitude between Memphis and Heliopolis. This range encompasses the Atlantis range which is between Saqqara and Abu Rowash. This range thus includes 3 III dynasty pyramids, 5 IV dynasty pyramid(including those of Giza) and a number of V dynasty pyramids.

 

Betelgeuse aligns with Aphroditopolis(Per-Hathor). This physically defines the bend of the Nile. One can thus look at how much of an error we have for Thebes which is close by. When Regulus is East as observed from the Karnak Temple of Thebes the azimuth of Betelgeuse is 179.32 degrees. The divergence is thus 0.68 degrees.

 

To understand what this means I have to point out that this might relate to a planetary alignment of 3 planets. This way we look at where we have to go so that we notice each one of these planets rise above the horizon.

 

The first planet aligns with mount Parnassus. The first planet thus aligns with the Khufu Pyramid mountain.

The second planet aligns with mount Serbal. The second planet thus aligns with the star Alnitak.

The third planet does not seem to align with a certain landmark. It crosses over Lake Nasser in Upper Egypt. The third planet is considerably fainter than the others. But we can "see"(through astronomy software) all three above the horizon in the East if we are stationed in a place like the Temple of Dakka.           

Thanks @Trelane. He get that all cleared up for you? You cannot run fast enough to dodge my copy of Fingerprints of the Gods. 

[Tom1200]

5 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

Thanks @Trelane. He get that all cleared up for you? You cannot run fast enough to dodge my copy of Fingerprints of the Gods. 

How many copies did you buy?

[Wepwawet]

On 9/19/2024 at 6:22 PM, Thanos5150 said:

So, the enigma is if the throne is passed supposedly on to the children, and pharaohs ruled in succession, given Djedefre was the pharaoh in-between Khufu and Khafre then how does Khafre become pharaoh and not one of Djedefre's sons?

The goings on during the Amarna period show us that there were always complications in this. We know far more about the 18th Dynasty than the 4th, yet it is more by chance that we know that the Abydos king list excluded 5 kings between Amunhotep III and Horemheb. A great deal of what we know comes from the infill of the pylons of later temples, the talatat blocks taken from the dismantled monuments of the excluded kings, in a way a chance discovery, though hidden in plain sight in modern times. The discovery of the tomb of Tutankhamun was a lucky chance. In the 4th Dynasty there are no pylons, not even any temples as we know them from the NK. I think it would be easier to erase somebody from history in the 4th Dynasty than the 18th.

Even though we have a name for each of the five excluded Amarna kings, we still cannot resolve some crucial issues. Nobody knows who Smenkhkare was, a son, brother or cousin of Akhenaten, or, according to some, Nefertiti, who becomes two of the five excluded kings. A convincing timeline cannot be constructed. If we have these difficulties with a well documented dynasty like the 18th, then there is far less hope of untangling the less documented and more distant 4th. The chances are we will never untangle any of this, and many possible scenarios are not more or less valid than others.

On a more ephemeral point. The rise of the Aten and the return of sun worship in the 18th Dynasty seems, and it's realy vague, to have it's origins not just in a "nostalgic" look back to the 4th Dynasty, or all of the Old Kingdom, an alien concept to them anyway, but to Khafre in particular, not Khufu. It is Khafre who is the Son of Ra, it is he who has the Ra element to his name, it is objects belonging to him that Akhenaten had, obects, vases it seems, found in pieces in the tomb of Akhenaten. As the 18th Dynasty kings would have more knowledge of their ancestors than we do, I suggest that as it seems that Khafre was more important to them, then there must be a good reason, and as you state, there is an enigma about him, and it may be more than just the succession.

[Antigonos]

16 hours ago, Trelane said:

Why isn't that captured by corresponding structures? Seems incomplete to me if one is to believe the theory.

I wasn’t going to feed the fire but I know the actual answer. Keeping it simple, the original fringe theory to explain this was that it was only a Fourth Dynasty plan. Supposedly other structures either were built at the proper locations and their ruins still lie undiscovered or they were dismantled, or they were never built to begin with and the plan was left incomplete when the Fourth Dynasty came to an end.

 I didn’t say it made sense.

Edited October 22 by Antigonos

[Thanos5150]

5 hours ago, Tom1200 said:

How many copies did you buy?

Don't worry he wrote other books. I've been saving Supernatural for you. Quite the hefty tome. 

[Antigonos]

8 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

Don't worry he wrote other books. I've been saving Supernatural for you. Quite the hefty tome. 

Talisman is a good size for him too

[Thanos5150]

1 minute ago, Antigonos said:

Talisman is a good size for him too

Because of its unusually thick skull, the wild Tom is hard to take down with just one book sometimes so I was saving Talisman as back up.    

[Antigonos]

8 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

Because of its unusually thick skull, the wild Tom is hard to take down with just one book sometimes so I was saving Talisman as back up.    

Logical as always.

[Spiros]

4 hours ago, Antigonos said:

I wasn’t going to feed the fire but I know the actual answer. Keeping it simple, the original fringe theory to explain this was that it was only a Fourth Dynasty plan. Supposedly other structures either were built at the proper locations and their ruins still lie undiscovered or they were dismantled, or they were never built to begin with and the plan was left incomplete when the Fourth Dynasty came to an end.

 I didn’t say it made sense.

The alignemnts I posted above do not relate to the IV dynasty timeline ~2550 BC. I used the day I was born.

[Thanos5150]

58 minutes ago, Spiros said:

The alignemnts I posted above do not relate to the IV dynasty timeline ~2550 BC. I used the day I was born.

Of course you did. Now it makes sense. 

[Piney]

14 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

Of course you did. Now it makes sense. 

😆

[Trelane]

2 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

Because of its unusually thick skull, the wild Tom is hard to take down with just one book sometimes so I was saving Talisman as back up.    

I thought The Monuments of Mars might be more appropriate.🤣

 

[Thanos5150]

3 minutes ago, Trelane said:

I thought The Monuments of Mars might be more appropriate.🤣

You might have a chance with the hard cover edition, but the paperback is only going to make the Tom madder.